Game News Jeff Vogel Responding To Critics

[Forest Dweller]

Grow the fuck up, Ventilator. Your 4chandex newsposting is so shit that I immediately skip whatever it is as soon as I see your name at the top of the article.

This is a newsworthy item.

 

[Trash]

This time it is. It's the incredibly childish way in which he writes them that instantly make me lose interest.

 

[Radisshu]

Look, let me settle this bit of dinky, overblown elitism here and now. IF you're a longtime Spiderweb customer, you KNOW that Jeff Vogel makes great games, period.

Yeah. If you liked some guy's previous games, but disliked the demo of his newest release and didn't find what you read about it interesting, you still KNOW that game is going to be great, period.

 

[Monocause]

I responded to Jeff on his blog.

Jeff - don't take stuff out of context. I was the only one advocating piracy in the whole thread and I explicitly stated my reasons for doing so. Jumping to the Avadon thread...

"Yep, Jeff fucked this one up a bit - although not as bad as some people put it. Give him some credit, go to TPB and help yourself. While I almost always considered this unethical for JV games this time it's a necessity to make an informed purchase.
Why did he fuck up? The demo area is small and extremely crappy."

This is the proper context of my post. I was arguing that you chose your demo area poorly - which was, in fact, arguing in favor of your game. People on the Codex wouldn't purchase your game if they based their judgment only on the short, easy and bland demo - I wouldn't do so either.

I realise that you're probably not overly happy that anyone's advocating using TPB to grab your games, regardless of his/her reasons - sorry.

Cheers,
mono.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS OKAY READING THE THREADN AGAIN THERE IS GOOD CRITICISM BUT BROS IN HISNDEFENSE HOW MANY OTHER DEVCELOPERS LIKE IT HERE!!!!!

 

[Radisshu]

Jeff is actually very Gaiderish in his response, he's ignoring any valid complaints and the fact that tons of codexers liked/loved the Avadon and Exile games (I mean, that's why they're upset over Avadon in the first place). The comment by "the Doctor" on his blog pretty much nailed it:

"I am going to go to a forum full of people who hate my games, my writing, and the mere fact that I still draw oxygen on this planet. Namely, the Avadon thread on RPG Codex."

Except that, as far as I can tell, the majority of people on that site actually love your games, but think you've screwed up on this one. Although they do seem to be a bunch of dicks. Dicks with good taste, perhaps.

"Pick through them for the rare tidbit of good feedback."
And by good feedback you mean feedback that justifies whatever design decisions you made, right? Because there are examples of valid criticism over there that you have strategically omitted in favour of the silly stuff.

 

[zeitgeist]

BUT BROS IN HISNDEFENSE HOW MANY OTHER DEVCELOPERS LIKE IT HERE!!!!!

Seems to me that this number would be in direct correlation with the number of developers who (still) make good games.

 

[Trash]

Jeff overreacted with that post of his. Not that hard to see why when you do read the Avadon threads here though. Lots of the comments are of the usual 4chandex 'lololol retarded popamole dumbfuck decline worst shit evah' variety. Guess he just had some problems ignoring the retardedness regarding his lifelyhood. That he ignores and lumps the valid stuff together with the morons is weak though.

 

[Kraszu]

BRO AGAIN I FEEL FOR THE MOTHERFUCKER IF I MADE A GAME AND THE FOLLOWINGT COMMENTS WERE MADE

KINDA GOOD
NOT AS GOOD AS THE LAST GAME FOR THE FOLLOWING INTELLIGENT REASON
BEST INDIE GUY OUT THERE
I HATE THIS GAME I HOPE TO FUCK HIS MOTHERS CORPSE

BRO WHICH OF THE ABOVE WOULD MAKE THE LASTING IMPORESSION!!!!!!

Obviously the second one since it was argumented.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I was going to create a detailed post, pointing out everything I dislike and/or disagree with in regards to Avadon. Then I noticed two aspects;

Jeff's blog post is a knee jerk reaction, and highlights the easily dismissed posts, and/or takes snippets out of context from the Codex threads while ignoring any that contain well thought out criticism.

Jeff uses the 'Ha! It is selling good suckers!' more than once in his blog.

Due to the above, I realise it would be a waste of my time. Nothing will change (it is selling well), and Jeff will ignore the criticism anyway in lieu of easier prey (Generic one liner 'Vogel Sucks!' posts by resident morons).

This time it is. It's the incredibly childish way in which he writes them that instantly make me lose interest.

Bad day at the office? Relax mate. Relax.

BROS OKAY READING THE THREADN AGAIN THERE IS GOOD CRITICISM BUT BROS IN HISNDEFENSE HOW MANY OTHER DEVCELOPERS LIKE IT HERE!!!!!

Do you enjoy being criticised? Few people do. Even fewer people can take honest criticism, in spite of what they say. Add a bruised ego in to the mix and...Voilà! You have an angry 'artiste'.

 

[BLOBERT]

BRO BLACKADDER YOU HAVE IT RIGHT THERE IS LOTS OF GOOD CRITICISM AND MORE I READ I THING VOGEL KINDA OVERREACTED

THE CODEX HAS TRADITIONALLY BEEN A FAN OF HIS SHIT BUT OH WELL LIKE I WROTE ABOVE I UNDERSTAND WHY THE BRO MIGHT HAVE HURT FEELINGS

 

[BLOBERT]

AND BROS TO BE FAIR I THINK ALOT OF THE CRITISCISMS SEEMS LOGICICAL

BROS I COULDNT TOLERATE MT FIRST PLAYTHROUGH OF GENEFORGE SO I DEFINITELY WILL NOT TRY AVADON

MIGHT TRY GENEFORGE AGAIN THOUGH CAUSEOPF GOOD THINGS I HEARD HERE BRO VOGEL SHOULD REALIZE THIS FORUM IS MORE A FAN OF HIS SHIT THAN LOTS OF PLACES

 

[Hysael]

Jeff overreacted with that post of his. Not that hard to see why when you do read the Avadon threads here though. Lots of the comments are of the usual 4chandex 'lololol retarded popamole dumbfuck decline worst shit evah' variety.

I have to say ( as a relative outsider ( 3 post ~~ ) but frequent reader ): although we could expect from this forum to be a place of high quality topics with interesting comments from experienced rpg players, it's actually more like 90% of hattin', trollin' and 4chan bullshitting. It's getting boring.

On top of that, apparently, a very small minority here ACTUALLY likes rpg games other than [random 90's indie game that nobody knows].

yes, sure i can probably gtfo. i'm just disappointed.

 

[grotsnik]

This is why we need a general rule for this sort of thing. Something like-

And God spoke; "I have given you pubs. Therefore, if a man on the Internet should criticise your staggering work of heartbreaking genius in a manner which you feel is unconstructive, spiteful or just plain unfair, go you to a pub, and there summon a multitude of your mates, getting ridiculously shitfaced while complaining bitterly about those moronic fucks who just don't get it, agonising over their every word. And your mates shall reply, as it is written, "Just ignore those losers, mate. We know it's awesome." And you shall wake up the next morning in a hedgerow, feeling very sick but better about the whole thing."

"And you shall not rather neglect the pub and take to the Internet as a platform from which you may begin to snipe publicly and unfairly at reviewers, bloggers and entire online communities, calling upon your fans to show their support for you, for this is an abomination unto your Lord and does you no honour."

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Jeff overreacted with that post of his. Not that hard to see why when you do read the Avadon threads here though. Lots of the comments are of the usual 4chandex 'lololol retarded popamole dumbfuck decline worst shit evah' variety.

I have to say ( as a relative outsider ( 3 post ~~ ) but frequent reader ): although we could expect from this forum to be a place of high quality topics with interesting comments from experienced rpg players, it's actually more like 90% of hattin', trollin' and 4chan bullshitting. It's getting boring.

On top of that, apparently, a very small minority here ACTUALLY likes rpg games other than [random 90's indie game that nobody knows].

yes, sure i can probably gtfo. i'm just disappointed.

This place has always been like that. Liberal use of the ignore button tends to help those with a thin skin.

I don't quite understand that last line you wrote. You say few people here actually enjoy CRPG's...and then the last bit...what does that mean?

 

[Trash]

I have to say ( as a relative outsider ( 3 post ~~ ) but frequent reader ): although we could expect from this forum to be a place of high quality topics with interesting comments from experienced rpg players, it's actually more like 90% of hattin', trollin' and 4chan bullshitting. It's getting boring.

It is, hence my pissed off post about ventilator. This place used to have plenty of gems amongst the piles of excrement before the decline hit in force. If today even the newsposts are nothing but the same old 4chandex bull then this place really has hit rock bottom.

This place has always been like that.

It hasn't. That's the thing.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

It hasn't. That's the thing.

Well, after checking through old posts I have to say I disagree. There are more posters today...I grant you that, and this always equals a larger number of morons. If you take them away, the quality is the same, if not better, since there are actually more posters now who have played RPG's that date back before Fallout 1. This place is actually less of a hivemind today than it was in earlier times, at least from reading threads from years ago.

Case in point: Before, if you didn't think 'Choice and Consequence' was the highest level of aspiration in an RPG, you were, if not banned, then at least dumbfucked. Today, there are those who think differently, mainly due to their enjoyment of other classic RPG types. This caused a outcry from some of the older set here, but they were drowned out by ever increasing amounts of new posters, many of whom are valuable contributors.

Perhaps you could put your case forward with examples/knowledge that says otherwise? You have been here much longer after all. What do you think is wrong, or has happened?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

This time it is. It's the incredibly childish way in which he writes them that instantly make me lose interest.

Tbh, as newsworthy as it is, the subject matter doesn't demand seriousness. The codex flinged some shit at Vogel and he's replying with a slighly more elaborate "LOL, U MAD?" response.

Jeff is actually very Gaiderish in his response, he's ignoring any valid complaints and the fact that tons of codexers liked/loved the Avadon and Exile games (I mean, that's why they're upset over Avadon in the first place).

It's part of Avadon's streamlining: nothing says "big name dev" like mocking one liners from some forum known to be full of angry cunts.

Next week: Vogel becomes fat, gets buddha ears

edit: lol @ the first sentence on google search result

 

[Hysael]

You say few people here actually enjoy CRPG's...and then the last bit...what does that mean?

I was just expecting "the average joe" of this forum to reply to me something like "if you're not happy about how it is here, get the fuck out ". I was acknowledging it. Am i clear ? ( my english is not excellent i'd give you that ).

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Yeah, I'm pretty 4chan. At least for someone who never reads 4chan and never posted there.

Behold the horrors of 4chan newsposting:

Possibly. Mind you, it's not like the publisher send over a press release or announced something. It's just that Gamersgate lists the game - the expansion to Drakensang: The River of Time - as being released on May 13th. So, this is [Unconfirmed].

Another month, another update on the development progress of Age of Decadence.

PCGamer had some hands-on time with Obsidian Entertainments upcoming action-RPG Dungeon Siege III.
...
Good that the narrative doesn't come in the way of killing things.

 

[thesheeep]

edit: lol @ the first sentence on google search result

Awesome!

 

[DakaSha]

edit: lol @ the first sentence on google search result

Awesome!

 

[MicoSelva]

This is why we need a general rule for this sort of thing. Something like-

And God spoke; "I have given you pubs. Therefore, if a man on the Internet should criticise your staggering work of heartbreaking genius in a manner which you feel is unconstructive, spiteful or just plain unfair, go you to a pub, and there summon a multitude of your mates, getting ridiculously shitfaced while complaining bitterly about those moronic fucks who just don't get it, agonising over their every word. And your mates shall reply, as it is written, "Just ignore those losers, mate. We know it's awesome." And you shall wake up the next morning in a hedgerow, feeling very sick but better about the whole thing."

"And you shall not rather neglect the pub and take to the Internet as a platform from which you may begin to snipe publicly and unfairly at reviewers, bloggers and entire online communities, calling upon your fans to show their support for you, for this is an abomination unto your Lord and does you no honour."

 

[SuicideBunny]

On top of that, apparently, a very small minority here ACTUALLY likes rpg games other than [random 90's indie game that nobody knows].

a lot of us here have been playing rpgs for at least 20 or 30 years and have seen games rise from simplistic beginnings to increasing complexity in presentation and mechanics and now suffer from saturation and are appalled by the recent trend of simplification that feels like going backwards in time.
we need more complex systems that do things that we didn't already see done hundreds of times, while modern games give us increasingly simpler systems for so-called accessibility.
we're grumpy old people who miss the times when rpgs were made by huge nerds loving rpgs for huge nerds loving rpgs.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Well, given that what the Codex perceives as the main problem with Avadon -- that it does away with both what made Geneforge good (C&C) and what made Exile/Avernum decent (dungeon crawling) -- is clearly Vogel's conscious design decision, it's pretty obvious he couldn't have responded in any other way. It's just that his model have always been Bioware-like games but, paradoxically, as long as they failed to come close to that model his games remained pretty good -- but now that, it seems, he's finally released a game of his dream, one that perfectly fits the Bioware formula (fake C&C and dialogue choices, forced main quest linearity, party banter, etc.), the rift between what he and what the Codex considers superior has finally become perfectly clear. And there can be no compromise here.