Incline Josh Sawyer appreciation station

[MLMarkland]

Advertising a spiritual successor to the old much-loved isometric games is unquestionably part of what netted them so much cash in the KS. Obsidian was on its last legs... they needed that KS to be a hit.

Sawyer's inability to do his job is not the fans' fault. He tried to make as many changes to the template as he could, and for the most part, those changes sucked.

I’m not commenting on his design decisions.

I’m pointing out Josh didn’t have any actual control over marketing & advertising that kickstarter. At best he had some influence, he could say he didn’t like something or did like something to his employer, he could escalate up to “threatening to quit” and “actually quitting.” That’s the extent of his control on how PoE was originally presented.

I’m also not blaming Obsidian for making the decision to “not go bankrupt” and Feargus’ / Owners choices on the PoE pitch to the fans were authentic and well-intended. They intended to make PoE as much like BG series as humanly possible (I am not speaking from second hand information in this regard).

Most (All) Kickstarters underestimated the complexity & cost in the 2010s of “being both the publisher & the developer” as well as “locking themselves into a specific feature set / content generation” upfront to the audience.

 

[santino27]

Advertising a spiritual successor to the old much-loved isometric games is unquestionably part of what netted them so much cash in the KS. Obsidian was on its last legs... they needed that KS to be a hit.

Sawyer's inability to do his job is not the fans' fault. He tried to make as many changes to the template as he could, and for the most part, those changes sucked.

I’m not commenting on his design decisions.

I’m pointing out Josh didn’t have any actual control over marketing & advertising that kickstarter. At best he had some influence, he could say he didn’t like something or did like something to his employer, he could escalate up to “threatening to quit” and “actually quitting.” That’s the extent of his control on how PoE was originally presented.

I’m also not blaming Obsidian for making the decision to “not go bankrupt” and Feargus’ / Owners choices on the PoE pitch to the fans were authentic and well-intended. They intended to make PoE as much like BG series as humanly possible (I am not speaking from second hand information in this regard).

Most (All) Kickstarters underestimated the complexity & cost in the 2010s of “being both the publisher & the developer” as well as “locking themselves into a specific feature set / content generation” upfront to the audience.

I was responding to Tenebris' assertion, not yours, but yeah.

 

[MLMarkland]

Advertising a spiritual successor to the old much-loved isometric games is unquestionably part of what netted them so much cash in the KS. Obsidian was on its last legs... they needed that KS to be a hit.

Sawyer's inability to do his job is not the fans' fault. He tried to make as many changes to the template as he could, and for the most part, those changes sucked.

I’m not commenting on his design decisions.

I’m pointing out Josh didn’t have any actual control over marketing & advertising that kickstarter. At best he had some influence, he could say he didn’t like something or did like something to his employer, he could escalate up to “threatening to quit” and “actually quitting.” That’s the extent of his control on how PoE was originally presented.

I’m also not blaming Obsidian for making the decision to “not go bankrupt” and Feargus’ / Owners choices on the PoE pitch to the fans were authentic and well-intended. They intended to make PoE as much like BG series as humanly possible (I am not speaking from second hand information in this regard).

Most (All) Kickstarters underestimated the complexity & cost in the 2010s of “being both the publisher & the developer” as well as “locking themselves into a specific feature set / content generation” upfront to the audience.

I was responding to Tenebris' assertion, not yours, but yeah.

Word

 

[Roguey]

Josh doesn’t have control over advertising & marketing at Obsidian at any point in the past and present.

That’s an owners’ decision, and mainly a Feargus decision in the PoE / Kickstarter days. Mainly a Microsoft decision now — maybe with some veto power in the Obsidian equivalent of the subsidiary c-suite.

The idea of doing a spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games was Sawyer's. He insisted on it and then complained later about all the baggage that came with it. Fearg would have been happy to do a Torment successor with Avellone, but he was uncooperative. They could have tried pitching something entirely new, but didn't, because they were too self-conscious (not even sure if the IE successor would succeed).

 

[Butter]

Sawyer could've requested to not be in charge of Project Eternity if he didn't want to do an IE spiritual successor. There were other people capable of doing that job. He wanted to bait and switch his audience, then got frustrated when they tried to hold his feet to the fire.

 

[MLMarkland]

Josh doesn’t have control over advertising & marketing at Obsidian at any point in the past and present.

That’s an owners’ decision, and mainly a Feargus decision in the PoE / Kickstarter days. Mainly a Microsoft decision now — maybe with some veto power in the Obsidian equivalent of the subsidiary c-suite.

The idea of doing a spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games was Sawyer's. He insisted on it and then complained later about all the baggage that came with it. Fearg would have been happy to do a Torment successor with Avellone, but he was uncooperative. They could have tried pitching something entirely new, but didn't, because they were too self-conscious (not even sure if the IE successor would succeed).

This is an oversimplification of how executives greenlight anything, but it’s not entirely inaccurate.

Avellone was getting pitched by a half dozen executives at the time to be the creative lead on a half dozen projects — including myself and Fargo. We could pitch Avellone bc he was an owner at OEI not solely an employee.

By extension OEI was getting pitched some proposals to collaborate on alternate projects with Avellone as the common denominator.

We could not do the same approach with Josh, as he was an employee at the time and just pitching him would be something Feargus et al could turn around and sue people based on doing.

So, in my case, when I wanted Josh attached to a particular project, I asked OEI’s permission first, and established ground rules with Feargus.

All of the set of decisions made by executives & founders around crowdfunding and IP were all “educated guesses” blended with “business motivations” and “personal preferences.”

For example, my position was that using pre-existing IP to crowdfund broader more profitable games, would allow the game studios to go make a more niche product, such as IE successors, with better financing in place, a larger budget and more likelihood of success. Specifically, the main project I went and secured a license for around same time was a Halloween game — which would have been very successful as an asymmetric MP game, but then the project exploded into a billion pieces because Harvey Weinstein / TWC was the ultimate owner in fact of the Halloween brand and the project got sucked into the maelstrom of bankruptcy and litigation (well before the Harvey story broke in the public’s perception).

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

Sawyer could've requested to not be in charge of Project Eternity if he didn't want to do an IE spiritual successor. There were other people capable of doing that job. He wanted to bait and switch his audience, then got frustrated when they tried to hold his feet to the fire.

Who else would have taken it? And if they had, what could they have done to make it more of a true spiritual successor?

I don't think any designer at Obsidian would have wanted to use the open game license to build their ruleset around - so it would always have ended up with their own ruleset. And story/thematically, Obsidian almost always tried to do their own thing with story - and I don't know that they could have written in the style of Bioware and made it good. When they did with NWN2's OC campaign, it wasn't good.

 

[santino27]

Sawyer could've requested to not be in charge of Project Eternity if he didn't want to do an IE spiritual successor. There were other people capable of doing that job. He wanted to bait and switch his audience, then got frustrated when they tried to hold his feet to the fire.

Who else would have taken it? And if they had, what could they have done to make it more of a true spiritual successor?

I don't think any designer at Obsidian would have wanted to use the open game license to build their ruleset around - so it would always have ended up with their own ruleset. And story/thematically, Obsidian almost always tried to do their own thing with story - and I don't know that they could have written in the style of Bioware and made it good. When they did with NWN2's OC campaign, it wasn't good.

NWN2 OC story wasn't great, but it was a hell of a lot better than NWN OC. And Mask of the Betrayer was excellent/

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

NWN2 OC story wasn't great, but it was a hell of a lot better than NWN OC. And Mask of the Betrayer was excellent/

Yeah, but MOTB was written in that Obsidian style - not Bioware grand adventure style. The OC was, and it was pretty crap.

So, as relates to POE, I don't know they could have written a true spiritual successor - they never were the same type of company as Baldurs Gate era Bioware.

 

[Hace El Oso]

So, as relates to POE, I don't know they could have written a true spiritual successor - they never were the same type of company as Baldurs Gate era Bioware.

Funny, I’ve never really thought about that. If you had classic Obsidian just fill in the writing in Baldur’s Gate, it would be terribly angsty.

 

[vazha]

After two games in the series, that ship has sailed. I now have zero desire to see a Sawyerian isometric RPG

Yup, and whatever changes he brought in to have his rubberstamp on them were shit. I still shudder at the mere thought of intellectual barbarians

 

[santino27]

NWN2 OC story wasn't great, but it was a hell of a lot better than NWN OC. And Mask of the Betrayer was excellent/

Yeah, but MOTB was written in that Obsidian style - not Bioware grand adventure style. The OC was, and it was pretty crap.

So, as relates to POE, I don't know they could have written a true spiritual successor - they never were the same type of company as Baldurs Gate era Bioware.

I genuinely don't think anyone really cared if it was in the classic Bioware grand adventure style. I certainly didn't back it thinking it would be BG2.5, having played IWD and IWD2 from Black Isle. Something in the lines of the Icewind Dale games or even MotB (without the horrible NWN2 engine) would have been cool. Instead, we got dry schlock, occasionally mixed in with laughably purple prose.

But this is a bit of a tangent, tbh; my issues were less with the boring, poorly told, overly pretentious story, and more with the mechanics, which is where Sawyer clearly did insert himself.

Anyway, Sawyer's new stance--after years of melodramatically falling on his sword as he accepted blame for the failings of the POE games--in which he now at least partly blames the fans for not letting him deliver something those fans clearly hadn't backed in the first place, is peak bitter old woman revisionist thinking.

Other than that, I'm sure he's great.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

NWN2 OC story wasn't great, but it was a hell of a lot better than NWN OC. And Mask of the Betrayer was excellent/

Yeah, but MOTB was written in that Obsidian style - not Bioware grand adventure style. The OC was, and it was pretty crap.

So, as relates to POE, I don't know they could have written a true spiritual successor - they never were the same type of company as Baldurs Gate era Bioware.

I genuinely don't think anyone really cared if it was in the classic Bioware grand adventure style. I certainly didn't back it thinking it would be BG2.5, having played IWD and IWD2 from Black Isle. Something in the lines of the Icewind Dale games or even MotB (without the horrible NWN2 engine) would have been cool. Instead, we got dry schlock, occasionally mixed in with laughably purple prose.

But this is a bit of a tangent, tbh; my issues were less with the boring, poorly told, overly pretentious story, and more with the mechanics, which is where Sawyer clearly did insert himself.

Anyway, Sawyer's new stance--after years of melodramatically falling on his sword as he accepted blame for the failings of the POE games--in which he now at least partly blames the fans for not letting him deliver something those fans clearly hadn't backed in the first place, is peak bitter old woman revisionist thinking.

Other than that, I'm sure he's great.

Mechanics though is a similar thing, as a company they weren't going to use OGL and get it as close to D&D as they could, they were going to end up trying to build their own thing.

The problem with Pillars, and all these spiritual successors made by people involved with the original products, is that artists don't want to just shut up and play the hits. It's why most bands will start straying from the sound that won them acclaim, even if their new sound is not profitable. They want to keep moving and pushing forward artistically. Sawyer and other members of Obsidian had done IE games, why do another game in the same manner.

It's the new artist who loves those works and who have never made anything similar before who deliver the best spiritual succesor. Because they aren't bored slavishly imitating what they love, in fact they are excited.

Obsidian was never going to deliver a true spiritual successor to IE games, again hindsight being 20/20.

 

[Roguey]

Obsidian was never going to deliver a true spiritual successor to IE games, again hindsight being 20/20.

I was telling everyone from the start that Sawyer disliked the Baldur's Gate series and didn't care much for Torment and wasn't going to make a game like that, but people thought I was trolling.

 

[santino27]

NWN2 OC story wasn't great, but it was a hell of a lot better than NWN OC. And Mask of the Betrayer was excellent/

Yeah, but MOTB was written in that Obsidian style - not Bioware grand adventure style. The OC was, and it was pretty crap.

So, as relates to POE, I don't know they could have written a true spiritual successor - they never were the same type of company as Baldurs Gate era Bioware.

I genuinely don't think anyone really cared if it was in the classic Bioware grand adventure style. I certainly didn't back it thinking it would be BG2.5, having played IWD and IWD2 from Black Isle. Something in the lines of the Icewind Dale games or even MotB (without the horrible NWN2 engine) would have been cool. Instead, we got dry schlock, occasionally mixed in with laughably purple prose.

But this is a bit of a tangent, tbh; my issues were less with the boring, poorly told, overly pretentious story, and more with the mechanics, which is where Sawyer clearly did insert himself.

Anyway, Sawyer's new stance--after years of melodramatically falling on his sword as he accepted blame for the failings of the POE games--in which he now at least partly blames the fans for not letting him deliver something those fans clearly hadn't backed in the first place, is peak bitter old woman revisionist thinking.

Other than that, I'm sure he's great.

Mechanics though is a similar thing, as a company they weren't going to use OGL and get it as close to D&D as they could, they were going to end up trying to build their own thing.

The problem with Pillars, and all these spiritual successors made by people involved with the original products, is that artists don't want to just shut up and play the hits. It's why most bands will start straying from the sound that won them acclaim, even if their new sound is not profitable. They want to keep moving and pushing forward artistically. Sawyer and other members of Obsidian had done IE games, why do another game in the same manner.

It's the new artist who loves those works and who have never made anything similar before who deliver the best spiritual succesor. Because they aren't bored slavishly imitating what they love, in fact they are excited.

Obsidian was never going to deliver a true spiritual successor to IE games, again hindsight being 20/20.

While I think (in hindsight, like you said), all that is very much true, it doesn't change the fact that it's what they sold backers, it's not what they delivered, and JES has now decided to blame those same backers for it and the games' reception.

But I think we're talking in circles a bit now, so I'm happy to let it go.

 

[EtcEtcEtc]

While I think (in hindsight, like you said), all that is very much true, it doesn't change the fact that it's what they sold backers, it's not what they delivered, and JES has now decided to blame those same backers for it and the games' reception.

But I think we're talking in circles a bit now, so I'm happy to let it go.

I agree with you 100% that they should have delivered what they sold backers. I'm not trying to excuse Obsidian, it was crummy business practice - just saying it doesn't surprise me. In fact, it's really just a larger lesson for kickstarters/crowdfunding in general that came late - we all should have been examining where we were putting our money closer before doing so. Like I said, in retrospect it should have been obvious that Obsidian wouldn't put out a proper IE successor, and maybe that inexile wouldn't put out a proper planescape successor. And definitely that Otherside couldn't make Underworld Ascendant, I never even revoked my key - it's probably still in my kickstarter account I lost my key for.

Right now, if I ever put money on a kickstarter it would be for an idea I thought looked cool as shit, or something like Geneforge 2 where I know exactly what I'm getting and the guy has a proven track record of delivering what he promises.

In the long run, where there any games that were billing themselves as spiritual successors that people donated on that actually delivered? (And I say this as someone who likes POE alright, and really likes POE 2) I can't think of any.

 

[santino27]

While I think (in hindsight, like you said), all that is very much true, it doesn't change the fact that it's what they sold backers, it's not what they delivered, and JES has now decided to blame those same backers for it and the games' reception.

But I think we're talking in circles a bit now, so I'm happy to let it go.

I agree with you 100% that they should have delivered what they sold backers. I'm not trying to excuse Obsidian, it was crummy business practice - just saying it doesn't surprise me. In fact, it's really just a larger lesson for kickstarters/crowdfunding in general that came late - we all should have been examining where we were putting our money closer before doing so.

Couldn't agree more! As far as such things go, at least it was a relatively cheap lesson.

 

[Laz Sundays]

After a decade of love for IWD games I've come to realize that they were good games precisely because Sawyer had no time to ruin them with his bs.

Proof: PoE Might that makes you a Muscle Wizard. PoE in general. So whenever I see interviews were he's like "we had no time to work on it" I am extremely, religiously thankful for that.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

 

[Eirinjas]

Is this the autism awareness thread?

 

[whydoibother]

American politics are retarded. How is the individual freedom to own a firearm not a liberal policy? Literally the LIBERTY to own a firearm, to protect your LIBERTY.
But, of course, americans are retarded in general, and they extrapolate from their holy scripture that this means everyone should be able to own an AA missile launcher (for self defense).

 

[MLMarkland]

Is this the autism awareness thread?

Yes

 

[Roguey]

American politics are retarded. How is the individual freedom to own a firearm not a liberal policy? Literally the LIBERTY to own a firearm, to protect your LIBERTY.

Yeah well it's the liberals who want to ban civilians from owning firearms ("for their own protection") and conservatives who want to keep things the way they are.

But, of course, americans are retarded in general, and they extrapolate from their holy scripture that this means everyone should be able to own an AA missile launcher (for self defense).

When America was founded, civilians could legally own fleets of warships (which were utilized in wars) https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2014/march/yes-privateers-mattered

 

[whydoibother]

Yeah well it's the liberals who want to ban civilians from owning firearms ("for their own protection")

Yeah well that's dumb.

When America was founded, civilians could legally own fleets of warships (which were utilized in wars)

When America was founded, civilians could own other civilians. Things may have changed a bit since then.

 

[Roguey]

When America was founded, civilians could own other civilians. Things may have changed a bit since then.

At the time that was rather controversial and compromises were made.