Josh Sawyer Q&A Thread

[Humbaba]

Do we have some sort of metric on whether or not games back then had fewer bugs than they do today (indicating laziness)? Because I have the feeling that games on average have remained the buggy pieces of shit that they are throughout time, only these days patches are a regular and easy thing.

Ease of patching games has definitely led to an increase in buggy releases. It's not uncommon to see people express opinions of waiting for the "director's cut" or what have you release to play games because they release unfinished. When you either had no way to patch the game or distributing patches was a nightmare, "ship it and patch it later" isn't a strategy you can use.

Idk, there's lots of older games with fan patches because loads of bugs were never fixed in the first place. One could also make the point of increased complexity in coding being the cause for more bugs instead of outright laziness but I know nothing about programming. Then again, things like Early Access may encourage sloppy development.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Do we have some sort of metric on whether or not games back then had fewer bugs than they do today (indicating laziness)? Because I have the feeling that games on average have remained the buggy pieces of shit that they are throughout time, only these days patches are a regular and easy thing.

Ease of patching games has definitely led to an increase in buggy releases. It's not uncommon to see people express opinions of waiting for the "director's cut" or what have you release to play games because they release unfinished. When you either had no way to patch the game or distributing patches was a nightmare, "ship it and patch it later" isn't a strategy you can use.

Idk, there's lots of older games with fan patches because loads of bugs were never fixed in the first place. One could also make the point of increased complexity in coding being the cause for more bugs instead of outright laziness but I know nothing about programming. Then again, things like Early Access may encourage sloppy development.

I'm not going to pretend there weren't buggy releases, but they were definitely less tolerated. It's pretty much why Troika sank if you look at the contemporary reviews for their games. Now reviewers gloss over bugs, and if a reviewer dares to mention bugs that prevent them from completing the game even with the dev's help they get attacked for it.

 

[Roguey]

I'm not going to pretend there weren't buggy releases, but they were definitely less tolerated. It's pretty much why Troika sank if you look at the contemporary reviews for their games.

Troika was never popular because they didn't make games that could become popular (not fun enough, not appealing enough), not because they had bugs. Bethesda and Bioware games had a ton of bugs, no one cared. Bloodlines was the only game of theirs that had a gamestopper (and this was fixed in their one and only patch).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'm not going to pretend there weren't buggy releases, but they were definitely less tolerated. It's pretty much why Troika sank if you look at the contemporary reviews for their games.

Troika was never popular because they didn't make games that could become popular (not fun enough, not appealing enough), not because they had bugs. Bethesda and Bioware games had a ton of bugs, no one cared. Bloodlines was the only game of theirs that had a gamestopper (and this was fixed in their one and only patch).

https://co8.org/community/threads/the-atari-buglist.4051/
you can argue whether co8 addressed those bugs, but the game was unbelievably buggy not only at launch, but at the final patch.

And the argument it didn't affect their sales is flat out false.

This is what Jason Anderson said about Troika in a retrospective:

Publishers aren’t interested in games from developers that consistently turn out B titles. Unfortunately, although our games had depth and vision, we were never able to release a game that had been thoroughly tested and rid of bugs. The large quantity of errors in our product automatically rendered them B titles.

 

[Roguey]

https://co8.org/community/threads/the-atari-buglist.4051/
you can argue whether co8 addressed those bugs, but the game was unbelievably buggy not only at launch, but at the final patch.

It can be completed without any unofficial patches according to Lilura, the authoritative source.

And the argument it didn't affect their sales is flat out false.

This is what Jason Anderson said about Troika in a retrospective:

Eh, he made the games, but I wouldn't necessarily say that gives him additional insight on why they weren't mega-sellers. They simply didn't have mega-seller potential. ToEE, their fastest-selling, was an Icewind Dale at best.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Eh, he made the games, but I wouldn't necessarily say that gives him additional insight on why they weren't mega-sellers.

I'm sure as co-founder it gave him insight as to why no publishers thought they were worth the risk which is why they ended up closing shop.

 

[Roguey]

I'm sure as co-founder it gave him insight as to why no publishers thought they were worth the risk which is why they ended up closing shop.

Publishers noticed that there was no big money to be made in funding a "Troika RPG" so the only offers they got were crap they had no interest in playing.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'm sure as co-founder it gave him insight as to why no publishers thought they were worth the risk which is why they ended up closing shop.

Publishers noticed that there was no big money to be made in funding a "Troika RPG" so the only offers they got were crap they had no interest in playing.

Could you perhaps give a reason why games that were warmly received except for bugs might not have had large a large potential for sales? Was there perhaps a flaw in them that caused people to reconsider buying them? Maybe perhaps after 3 products the developers might have earned them a reputation for something off putting to potential customers?

 

[Roguey]

Could you perhaps give a reason why games that were warmly received except for bugs might not have had large a large potential for sales? Was there perhaps a flaw in them that caused people to reconsider buying them? Maybe perhaps after 3 products the developers might have earned them a reputation for something off putting to potential customers?

Sure.

a) they weren't that fun to play
b) they had premises that weren't really all that appealing, especially compared to a Bioware or Bethesda premise.

Kingmaker shipped utterly broken; more broken than a Troika game by far. It had a long tail success because it had an appealing premise and it was fun to play. Bethesda games ship broken and their bugs become memes because they have appealing premises and a lot of people find them enjoyable enough to play.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Kingmaker shipped utterly broken; more broken than a Troika game by far. I

You realize that's what this entire discussion is about, right? That devs can release far more broken games now and get away with it?

 

[Roguey]

Kingmaker shipped utterly broken; more broken than a Troika game by far. I

You realize that's what this entire discussion is about, right? That devs can release far more broken games now and get away with it?

Bioware also got away with it when they released Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Neverwinter Nights and Bethesda with Daggerfall and Morrowind.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Kingmaker shipped utterly broken; more broken than a Troika game by far. I

You realize that's what this entire discussion is about, right? That devs can release far more broken games now and get away with it?

Bioware also got away with it when they released Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Neverwinter Nights and Bethesda with Daggerfall and Morrowind.

BG1 & 2 were nowhere near as buggy as Troika's games.
Bethesda has always gotten a pass because, come on, just look at Todd's smile.

 

[Roguey]

Kingmaker shipped utterly broken; more broken than a Troika game by far. I

You realize that's what this entire discussion is about, right? That devs can release far more broken games now and get away with it?

Bioware also got away with it when they released Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Neverwinter Nights and Bethesda with Daggerfall and Morrowind.

BG1 & 2 were nowhere near as buggy as Troika's games.
Bethesda has always gotten a pass because, come on, just look at Todd's smile.

Scripting Changes in Version 1.1.4312 and 1.1.4315:

- Lothander subplot has been clarified. Dialogue has been changed to
make the plot more easily understood.
- The Gatewarden will now initiate dialogue only with the protagonist.
- All scripts have been refined in the Belt and Liia scene.
- The Skeleton Warrior's toughness has been reduced.
- You now get more XP for killing Shlumpshathe.
- Nikolai has been moved to improve his ability to intercept the player.
- Ragefast will now initiate dialogue with the player.
- Ramazith will now initiate dialogue with the player.
- The journal entry for Brielbara's quest now lists the
rendezvous point.
- Chloe's plot has been changed slightly.


Bugs fixed in Version 1.1.4312 and 1.1.4315:

- Baldur's Gate now checks the cache size, and gives a warning if the
user is running out of hard disk space.
- Baldur's Gate checks the Hard Drive for space before saving games.
The game will give a warning if the user is running out of disk space.
- The script compiler now works.
- The crash that was occuring after some players pressed ESC to exit the
World Map has been fixed.
- The following Assertion Failure was fixed: "An Assertion Failed in
D:\Dev\Baldur\ObjAnimation.ccp at line number 13665. Programmer says:
Bad Terrain code used in search code map for area."
- The following Assertion Failure was fixed: "An Assertion Failed in
D:\Dev\chitin\chnetwork.cpp at line number 463. Programmer says: que
messages corrupted."
- The following Assertion Failure was fixed: "An Assertion Failed in
D:\Dev\Chitin\CnNetwork.cpp at line number 463. Programmer says:
CnNetworkwindow."
- The following Assertion Failure was fixed: "An Assertion Failed in
D:\Dev\Chitin\CnNetwork.cpp at line number 7936. Programmer says:
Uncompress in network layer failed."
- The following Assertion Failure was fixed: "An Assertion in
D:\Dev\chitin\CnNetwork layer failed."
- The random Jovial Juggler crashes have been fixed.
- The maximum number of portraits that Baldur's Gate will acknowledge
in your Portraits directory is 255. This fixes a crash bug.
- The multiplayer crash that would occur if you were watching another
client's character when that character was killed in a separate area
has been fixed.
- The hard lock which occured when saving a game after having deleted
save games on the save game screen has been fixed.
- A bug involving general weirdness after the main character was killed
by magic missles which travelled through an area transition to kill
the character has been fixed.
- The bug in which dual classed mages cast spells at the lower of their
two levels has been fixed.
- A lockup which occured when the "eject" button is pressed on a
Creative 2x DVD has been fixed.
- Characters will no longer get stuck when flooding cloakwood mines.
- The bug in which Garrick would block the stairs to the Burning
Wizard after being rejected, and following a party based area
transition, has been fixed.
- An intermittent bug which prevented Imoen from being resurrected has
been fixed.
- Gandolar Luckyfoot's dialogue chain has been fixed.
- Several minor text errors have been fixed.
- An incidence of Biff the Understudy showing up when dealing with
Viconia and the Flaming Fist Soldier has been fixed.
- You can no longer turn both Viconia and the Flaming Fist Mercenary
hostile.
- Dual class characters no longer gain 1 hp every level until reaching
previous level +1. They now get none, as they are supposed to.
- A major text error in the Journal entry recieved from the Nymph
which stated "Ragefast's home is just West of the Hall of Wonders,"
has been changed to correctly refer to it as "...Northeast..."
- You can no longer return Brage to the temple and then return later
and kill him without penalty.
- You can no longer attempt to join the bandits after having routed
the bandit camp.
- Importing 2nd or higher level characters with stats only works
correctly now.
- The price for drinks now works correctly.
- The SITT Panel in the Temple of Helm is no longer incorrectly named as
Alvahendar's Healing and Sundries.
- Yeslick will no longer complain if the player has flooded the mines
in Chapter 4.
- A bug with the Shadow Armor was fixed.
- Characters will no longer become trapped on different floors in the
Duchal Palace.
- Color Spray should no longer affect the caster under any
circumstances.
- +1 Bolts are now correctly shaded red for Clerics to indicate that
they are not usable due to class restriction.
- The area map for the small warehouse near the Nashkel mines has
been replaced with the correct map.
- The crash bug associated with save games in 1.1.4312 was fixed.

New in this version:

• Fixes the NPC "X appears busy" bug associated with Win2K and WinXP.

Already fixed in the previous patch version:

• Corrects the BG2 Windows Registry entries set by the original BG2 installation. This will happen during the installation of the patch.
• Fixes crashing issue with ATI video cards in 3D/OpenGL mode.
• Bgconfig.exe - Corrects the problem with inadvertently changing the cache size.
• Game can now read save games with read-only flag and they do not show up in save list so you can not overwrite them.
• You can now open containers in stores where the storekeeper will not buy anything from you.
• Temples now allow you to purchase heal spells when you are blinded.
• Monks now suffer from non-proficiency penalties.
• Monks can no longer attack the same number of times per round armed as unarmed.
• Fixed importing characters when the character portrait was not available.
• Fix to familiars moving between areas. Specifically this fixes releasing familiars after dream sequences.
• Fixed re-choosing mage kit during character creation.
• Animation changing while walking doesn't drop path as often now. Specifically with some items and being changed to a drow.
• Added baldur.ini option to disable sound.
  [Program Options]
  Disable Sound=1
• Can now read cache settings above 999 Megs and minimum cache size is now enforced at 150 Meg.
• Fixed a rare bug with True Sight causing some games to crash on load.
• In multiplayer, host can no longer force clients with characters you do not control to open their bags.
• Journal time format is now consistent with game clock time format.
• The bug where mages, thieves, sorcerers, and bards weren't getting their CON hp bonus when going from level 9 to 10. This fix will affect all characters to be created, as well as affect all currently afflicted characters.
• Fixed Nishruu draining charges could wrap item's charges to 65000. This also caused these items to be sold for millions of gold pieces.
• Fixed major bug with Nishruus eating item w/o charges (familiars, weapons, etc.)
• Fixed bug with using Stone to Flesh didn't restore the Dead Global correctly. Fixed the problem some where having with Anomen's quest not starting.
• Fixed bug with using charm to restore party members means they could never talk again.
• Fixed problem with saving a trap that would cause it to detach from the party therefore no XP.
• Fixed bug with creating 2 kits in a row lead to menu inconsistency (having to hit done twice after picking a class) in multiplayer.
• Fixed first time run message for config program reruns even if you have run config already.
• Fixed bug with importing a character whose portrait doesn't exist caused level up to be applied twice.
• Fixed bug with dream sequences (familiars got stuck in wrong area).
• Fixed Multiplayer - client set scripts weren't saved between areas.
• Fixed Multiplayer - Running back and forth, being chased by a monster in an area – monster changed to Biff the understudy.
• Fixed DialogueInterrupt (flag) was not broadcast to clients.
• Fixed bug with Yoshimo script not changing correctly.
• Fixed Polymorphed characters losing their path.
• Fixed bug with Dual classed Bounty Hunters being able to use skills even if inactive class.
• Fixed problem with Copper Coronet guard blocking doorway.
• Fixed bug in Planar Sphere showing the wrong text when failing to make Ring of Wizardry.
• Fixed if inventory was full when finishing the 12 riddles as the Statue of Riddles, the item dropped inside with the Statue and could not be retrieved. It now drops outside.
• Fixed bug with player losing the thieves guild, paying Renal Bloodscalp to regain it and it was immediately lost again.
• Fixed problem with Anomen quest not starting when he enters AR0903 (Radiant Heart).
• Fixed Cursed Berserker sword causing inability to save.
• Fixed final battle with Bodhi when she turns into the bat, which if killed, caused the loss of the quest item.
• Fixed rare bug caused by regaining control of a charmed character with the collars in the Underdark.
• Fixed rare bug with Malachai getting into a dialogue loop if you talked to him before killing Bodhi.
• Fixed movement bug with various party members only moving a few steps instead of going to their destination.
• Fixed THAC0 and number of attacks bug with Monks.
• Fixed 'stutter' bug with Aerie (stopped walking, not attacking, etc.)
• Fixed inventory duplication in bag of holding.
• Fixed Cloak of Reflection crash in multiplayer.

And that's just what they could be bothered to fix. Plenty more bugs in the unofficial patches.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

BG1 & 2 were not as or more buggy than Troika games. I'm not even going to debate this.

 

[Roguey]

BG1 & 2 were not as or more buggy than Troika games. I'm not even going to debate this.

How can this even be accurately quantified? What matters to me (and I imagine most people) is the severity of the bug. Gamestoppers and crashes are of critical priority. Both Bioware and Troika had a few of those, and they fixed them. A lot of lower priority bugs remained unfixed, which is true for pretty much every RPG. I don't think it matters at all if one game may or may not have more unfixed low-priority bugs than another; a lot of this stuff even goes unnoticed by most.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

How can this even be accurately quantified?

easy:
nobody recommends installing unofficial patches to replay BG1 & 2

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Infinitron]

 

[whydoibother]

B-but Josh, I want to give my slingshot +3 the Keen keyword.

 

[Desiderius]

Big problem in Augury of Chaos

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Larianshill]

If only all that energy was put into making a good game

 

[Infinitron]

Q&A blitz:

 

[soulburner]

Pretty cool that Deadfire became profitable. Say what you want, but I would like to see a PoE 3 one day. Just change the engine or fix the insane loading times. Entering new maps should be instantaneous.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Anyone have any data on long-term sales of games by genre? I get the feeling that RPGs have far less of a dropoff in sales than most other genres.