KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Dan Vavra's medieval chad simulator

[BruceVC]

I played with instant herb picking and no bushes collision. Just finished my second playtrough yesterday. Not hardcore though. I tried to emulate hardcore As much as possible, but by the end i just fast travel everywhere because it got old in the last stretch.

Interestingly enough Im also playing on normal mode but I dont ever fast travel by choice, Im 75 hours into this game and the only when some quests automatically fast travel do I use it

I enjoy manual travelling around the land on my trusty horse. I like landscape the overall beauty of the world.

 

[behold_a_man]

alchemy: by far the best and most interesting skill to use. I love how each recipe requires different steps to create the necessary potion. Lots of fun

Its lots of fun until you unlock the perk that removes the mini-game entirely making it instant. Much like Morrowind it is a very game breaking thing especially for the in-game economy, it renders acquiring resources redundant. I feel like it could've been done better.
You're in fact punishing the player for getting good at something because you're reducing its interactivity when really it should be getting more complex.

For me it seems quite logical to make some aspect of the game different than combat and relying on muscle memory automatic after getting hang of it. What is your preferred solution, allowing the player to make fully-fledged automated schnapps distillery himself? From my perspective, they could either:
a) Making the process automatic, which they did, after making first potion.
b) Do nothing, making potion making in the end game (when you know necessary recipes by heart, and you are only limited by the time it takes a game to acknowledge your actions) quite mundane.
c) Allow the player to automatize the process in some way - though I guess the idea of Henry spearheading the industrial revolution in medieval Bohemia would be problematic at best.

 

[Harthwain]

alchemy: by far the best and most interesting skill to use. I love how each recipe requires different steps to create the necessary potion. Lots of fun

Its lots of fun until you unlock the perk that removes the mini-game entirely making it instant. Much like Morrowind it is a very game breaking thing especially for the in-game economy, it renders acquiring resources redundant. I feel like it could've been done better.
You're in fact punishing the player for getting good at something because you're reducing its interactivity when really it should be getting more complex.

For me it seems quite logical to make some aspect of the game different than combat and relying on muscle memory automatic after getting hang of it. What is your preferred solution, allowing the player to make fully-fledged automated schnapps distillery himself?

Frankly, I like the automatic potion making skill AS AN OPTION. People who like to create potions can still make them by hand (and save themselves a skill point), while people who don't like it have the option to automate the process at cost of efficiency (meaning there is a trade-off).

 

[RobotSquirrel]

Frankly, I like the automatic potion making skill AS AN OPTION. People who like to create potions can still make them by hand (and save themselves a skill point), while people who don't like it have the option to automate the process at cost of efficiency (meaning there is a trade-off).

100% this. You do both and let the user pick which one they want.

I've debated this myself for my own projects, yes its awesome having a process where the player is involved in it and its good from restricting the players overall impact on the economy, that said it is incredibly mundane and repetitive but also a point that if the player can mass produce items it completely defeats the purpose of resource management as a gameplay system, and thus defeats the entire point of crafting in general. I'm more in favour of it being tedious but allowing for hard to get ways to optimise it not through grinding obviously which is what KCD gets very wrong.

I think that games like KCD work their best in the struggling hobo phase, they feel their worst when you're flooded with resources so a big part of getting it right is that economy management side and asking "does the player really need to produce 1000 savior schnapps". Tying it to the save system was a big mistake obviously because it encourages this economy breaking play style, you have to out of convenience otherwise you're potentially losing hours of progress which is infuriating in hardcore mode.

Process Driven Crafting (Active) (Player Driven)		Automatic Crafting (Passive) (Character Driven)
Good	Bad	Good	Bad
Interactive, makes you feel like you're actually making the item and going through a process. A greater sense in pride of the item you have acquired. Encourages resource management which in turn encourages exploration. Encourages experimentation. (Customisation is a big draw here) Slows the player down enough so that they don't break the economy. Feels like a job	Extremely tedious and repetitive. Players may become bored with it and avoid the system entirely. Requires its own process on the developer end for every unique item which can be difficult to implement Feels like a job	Its faster than the alternative so it allows the player to get back to the fun. Allows the player to accumulate lots of resources easily. Can allow you to craft everything imaginable which is great for modding as there is no need for complex systems. (see RimWorld) Feels less like grinding.	Extremely game breaking when done excessively, floods the game economy with junk. Makes the player feel like they can basically do what ever they want since money is no longer a factor. Reduces the resource management aspect of the game to mundane and unimportant. It becomes a redundant system. Takes the player out of the game world as it has no interactivity so you're really just waiting. Almost feels like cheating, like you've programmed a macro bot and walked away from the machine so it effectively rewards you for not even playing the game which is really bad.

I think both makes sense but the way I look at it, Player Driven is perfect for Craftsmanship, Character Driven is better for Mass Production. Gating the systems behind tech-trees or a particularly crafting bench makes sense, and restricting what items can and can't be made also makes sense, that the player driven crafting should always be much more rewarding and the character driven should have limitations based on economies of scale- there should be clear limitations like warehouse caps that prevent you making items that the economy doesn't want (Sid Meire's Colonisation and The Guild approach to the problem).
These crafting systems are very hard to get right so I don't really blame Warhorse for whats happened here, but I will say yeah it should've been a difficulty option. Same with the save system.

Also I don't think "just don't use it" cuts it for KCD, it really should be baked into the difficulty because its too tempting to switch to automatic. It's something I should be discouraging myself from using but the tedious nature combined with the need to save using potions makes me want to use it out of a comfort need. I don't feel comfortable walking around with <10 Savior Schnapps if I'm going on a full day trip.

 

[cvv]

if the player can mass produce items it completely defeats the purpose of resource management........... Tying it to the save system was a big mistake obviously because it encourages this economy breaking play style,

Yes but saving in KCD isn't just limited by the number of schnapps you can mass produce. It's also tied to the alcohol and satiety mechanism, i.e. if you're spamming quicksave you WILL get drunk and overfed, with all the maluses that entails.

So from mid-game on the real problem isn't the automated alchemy perk. It's very easy to mass produce the schnapps even without it. I've never taken it bc I enjoyed alchemy so much and it's a matter of like 5 minutes to create your schnapps stock for the next 5 hours of play.

The real problem is actually using your schnapps as often as you might want. For instance in situations where you have to do several fights in a row you can't just schapps-save after every enemy wave bc by the time you'll get to the end you'll be drunk as a Russian and barely able to move due to overeating.

The whole schnapps mechanism leaves some space for fine-tuning but overall it's the best thing about the game and a much needed solution to the quicksave spamming problem, so pathological in most RPGs.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

The whole schnapps mechanism leaves some space for fine-tuning but overall it's the best thing about the game and a much needed solution to the quicksave spamming problem, so pathological in most RPGs.

Oh I agree, I like the consequences of the system its entirely there to prevent savescumming which is good don't get me wrong, It's mostly to do with the quests because the quests don't give you much break in between important timed decisions which is why I mass produce it. It can be extremely frustrating in hardcore if you accidentally took a wrong turn and the timer ran out and after a while I get the sinking feeling "its been a while since I last saved" during the main quest line. Otherwise I rarely use saviour schnapps and instead just sleep to save. Combat is easy enough that you don't need to save scum.

I did find it stressful to complete the main quests without any map markers and still get good outcomes which is why I needed to mass produce them because having to redo an entire chunk of a quest chain with navigating takes time. I most definitely am overdoing it but part of that is a result of min-maxing the intro, you end up with so much nettle doing it so I just go ahead and mass produce it at the start of the game its a good way to get those levels up (especially strength from the herbalist perk).

There are definitely things they could have done to discourage this play style, such as maybe making it so you could only sell a few potions at a time. Making it so your horse gets annoyed if you have too many herbs in storage.

 

[BruceVC]

I must say there are some pertinent and informative views on KC:D in the last couple of posts and I find myself agreeing and also disagreeing with certain views around mechanics and what works for me and I'm still playing KC:D, 90 hours in and still loving it

But end of the day we all going to have some different views because its based on our preference in the game and this is normal. Developers have to always find a balance and you not going to make everyone happy. So some observations from me around what I enjoy about any game and particularly my KC:D experience

I dont want to play a carebear game or have skill progression, like alchemy or lockpicking, automated because I want to advance only when I use these skills properly . I dont want "as an option " because then I will become lazy and start using it. At the moment there is real reward and realism with how you need to create potions to advance

I checked now and you only get the auto-create potions at level 10 alchemy. Im only on level 4 so Im miles away from getting there. That brings me to the next point and its important, I use the " save anywhere " mod which has created a reality in the game where Im not creating lots of schnapps potions and pushing my alchemy higher. So you could argue its " unrealistic " because you only create schnapps potions for saving

In my game I dont spam skill advancement but do it generally every 1-2 days to advance skills organically but if I wasnt using the " save anywhere mod " I would be spamming alchemy and reach level 10 and then get rewarded with the auto-create of potions

But I dont want to get rewarded unless I put real effort in to create specific potions and lots of them but not just schnapps. Im not sure if I am explaining it properly but end of the day the skills advancement really works and makes sense to my type of RP

And then cvv post also makes sense around how Schnapps is realistically used. But I dont abuse saves like I dont ever use fast travel so I prefer the "save anywhere mod " because then it means skills like Alchemy will only increase using the creation of normal potions which I prefer

 

[cvv]

I did find it stressful to complete the main quests without any map markers and still get good outcomes which is why I needed to mass produce them because having to redo an entire chunk of a quest chain with navigating takes time.

Sure but

a) there aren't that many timed decisions
b) many, if not most, outcomes aren't "good" or "bad", or at least it's nowhere near clear cut

Like with Reeky. If you're quick you can save him. But does he deserve it? And if you let him go, does he rob and kill more people? Maybe it's better to let Runt's thugs kill him.
Same with Pious. Sure you can do some additional quest steps to save him but there's the question of merit and consequence again.
Or the Waldensians. You can again save them from the inquisitor and if you're an atheist you might feel it's a good outcome. But people like that DID seriously threatened the church and there are a lot of religious gamers (including some Dexers) who might feel giving them up to the inquisition is the right thing to do.

In fact there are only two instances of a timed decision with a clear cut black-and-white outcomes - if you don't prepare certain cure a lot of villagers will die of illness. And there's this mason in one of the Sassau quests you can save from a murder if you're not dawdling.

I really feel Warhorse has intentionally built this game such that you can play knowing you don't have to save-spam because you can live with your decisions most of the time. And in the cases you actually bring harm to innocent people with your actions you KNOW it was your fault, not the game's. It's one of the reasons KCD is so exceptional.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

I think that's valid. I'll probably not be so pedantic about it next time I play since it really doesn't matter then.

 

[sosmoflux]

Is there any news on a sequel or whatever else Vavra is doing?

 

[HoboForEternity]

Kingdom kart. Medieval gokart racing role playing game.

 

[SlamDunk]

Is there any news on a sequel

Nothing officially announced yet, just leaks and hints about it. Here's one of the leaks...

(both entries were deleted shortly after publishing)

and one of the hints:

 

[BruceVC]

Is there any news on a sequel or whatever else Vavra is doing?

I hope there is a sequel, that will be " day 1 purchase " for sure

Once I have finished KC:D I will comment on what I would love to see in a sequel

 

[Yosharian]

More sex

 

[Paul_cz]

I know for a fact that sequel is being worked on. Hopefully to be announced later this year.

 

[SlamDunk]

I know for a fact that sequel is being worked on.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Paul_cz]

Care to elaborate?

Not really, no.
And yes, I realize this is a "trust me bro" situation

 

[The Great Deceiver]

Hopefully it's about Hussites.

 

[HoboForEternity]

My prediction is during development, new console come out so they have to adapt porting the games to ps5/xsx (tho devs usually get their kit years before the console is released, so idk) at the same pandemic hit that's why it's taken this long.

 

[Tacgnol]

I wonder what the excuse will be for Henry being a weakling again.

My money is on severely wounded and stuck in bed recovering for months. Bonus points if you start with max stats and combat skills during the intro section.

 

[likash]

I wonder what the excuse will be for Henry being a weakling again.

My money is on severely wounded and stuck in bed recovering for months. Bonus points if you start with max stats and combat skills during the intro section.

Or Henry gets killed and we play as the mega-chad Sir Hans Capon

 

[BruceVC]

So I completed KC:D after about 100 hours, I loved this game and its highly recommend if you want to play a Medieval RPG

Its gets a solid 78/100 on the globally respected " BruceVC game rating system". I made several posts already on what is great and well done in this game but to summarize

• its makes a nice change to play a historically accurate Medieval RPG
• the skills advancement and perks makes sense and you get rewarded for using abilities in a realistic way
• the combat is fun and exciting, you really learn to appreciate how Combos work. The combat is one of the most endearing parts of the game
• I loved how activities like lockpicking and alchemy works. I enjoyed doing this mini-games right to the end, I didnt get bored once by the repetition
• I appreciated the open world design and how most quests you can do at your own pace

Has anyone played the various DLCs, are they worth it?

I hope they release a sequel because I will definitely be investing in it and well done to Warhorse for this RPG gem

 

[HoboForEternity]

So I completed KC:D after about 100 hours, I loved this game and its highly recommend if you want to play a Medieval RPG

Its gets a solid 78/100 on the globally respected " BruceVC game rating system". I made several posts already on what is great and well done in this game but to summarize

• its makes a nice change to play a historically accurate Medieval RPG
• the skills advancement and perks makes sense and you get rewarded for using abilities in a realistic way
• the combat is fun and exciting, you really learn to appreciate how Combos work. The combat is one of the most endearing parts of the game
• I loved how activities like lockpicking and alchemy works. I enjoyed doing this mini-games right to the end, I didnt get bored once by the repetition
• I appreciated the open world design and how most quests you can do at your own pace

Has anyone played the various DLCs, are they worth it?

I hope they release a sequel because I will definitely be investing in it and well done to Warhorse for this RPG gem

The second half of woman's lot is excellent. Otherwise they are just like 5 to 6 quests each, take up to 5 hours or a bit more to finish.

They aren't excellent, but just ok i guess if you want more content. If you just want the real good one, it's just a woman's lot

 

[BruceVC]

So I completed KC:D after about 100 hours, I loved this game and its highly recommend if you want to play a Medieval RPG

Its gets a solid 78/100 on the globally respected " BruceVC game rating system". I made several posts already on what is great and well done in this game but to summarize

• its makes a nice change to play a historically accurate Medieval RPG
• the skills advancement and perks makes sense and you get rewarded for using abilities in a realistic way
• the combat is fun and exciting, you really learn to appreciate how Combos work. The combat is one of the most endearing parts of the game
• I loved how activities like lockpicking and alchemy works. I enjoyed doing this mini-games right to the end, I didnt get bored once by the repetition
• I appreciated the open world design and how most quests you can do at your own pace

Has anyone played the various DLCs, are they worth it?

I hope they release a sequel because I will definitely be investing in it and well done to Warhorse for this RPG gem

The second half of woman's lot is excellent. Otherwise they are just like 5 to 6 quests each, take up to 5 hours or a bit more to finish.

They aren't excellent, but just ok i guess if you want more content. If you just want the real good one, it's just a woman's lot

Thanks, Im going to skip them. I was reading up on Steam about them and they seem exactly what you mentioned. I have a weird habit with games, most of the time when I finish a game and complete the main narrative I dont spend much more time in the game

Obviously proper expansions are different like SOD for BG1

 

[SlamDunk]

If you "loved" it why only 78/100?

With that score you should have used "liked" instead.