KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Dan Vavra's medieval chad simulator

[cvv]

[*]lockpicking: it really is challenging and fun every time, I have broken lots of lockpicks

What is fun about a mini game like that in a rpg? If real world lock picks would break as easy as those in games, we won't have any burglary at all...

How often lockpicks in early 1400s used to break?

Also if games had to be like RL we wouldn't have any because you'd have to wait weeks or months of real time to recover from a skirmish with orcs.

 

[cvv]

Btw this new spoiler feature sucks so much ass.

 

[BruceVC]

[*]lockpicking: it really is challenging and fun every time, I have broken lots of lockpicks

What is fun about a mini game like that in a rpg? If real world lock picks would break as easy as those in games, we won't have any burglary at all...

How often lockpicks in early 1400s used to break?

Also if games had to be like RL we wouldn't have any because you'd have to wait weeks or months of real time to recover from a skirmish with orcs.

Yes, I agree. I understand Wesp5 point but end of the day its a game and certain components cant be 100% realistic or the game would be frustrating and or boring. For example take eating in any game and how that works and how you recover energy or become fatigued, its never going to be as realistic as RL

 

[cvv]

Also weapon training would take years, not days.

I'm sure one day somebody will make a game that you'll have to play every day for 3 years straight to be able to venture out of the tutorial and beat your first basic-bitch bandit but if they do, I think I'll pass.

 

[Hace El Oso]

Btw this new spoiler feature sucks so much ass.

It does. In case you don’t know, you can still use the proper spoilers, just remove the ‘I’ from ‘ISPOILER’ in the BB code mode, like this:

Spoiler

Ta da!

 

[Netch]

Also weapon training would take years, not days.

I'm sure one day somebody will make a game that you'll have to play every day for 3 years straight to be able to venture out of the tutorial and beat your first basic-bitch bandit but if they do, I think I'll pass.

You could always just go the System Shock 2 method of selecting a specialization then fast forwarding to one year later.

 

[Wesp5]

How often lockpicks in early 1400s used to break?

I don't know, but still I guess thieves didn't carry hundreds of them around like in Skyrim or other games. There are much better ways to do lockpicking for example in minigames that don't have you waste resources like in The Dark Mod or Bloodlines. Because another problem is that in the other kind of games you always find lockpicks lying around and I am pretty sure this never happened in the early 1400s . Worst offender of that recently of course was "The Outer World"...

 

[spectre]

How often lockpicks in early 1400s used to break?

I don't know, but still I guess thieves didn't carry hundreds of them around like in Skyrim or other games. There are much better ways to do lockpicking for example in minigames that don't have you waste resources like in The Dark Mod or Bloodlines. Because another problem is that in the other kind of games you always find lockpicks lying around and I am pretty sure this never happened in the early 1400s . Worst offender of that recently of course was "The Outer World"...

Well, what's a lockpick exactly?
Since we're talking about 1400s, it would mostly be warded locks. You pick those by taking a piece of malleable metal and approximating a shape of the key so that it can rotate inside the lock and push the mechanism.
Depending on the compexity of the lock, sometimes a bent nail would do, even better if you get your hands on a piece of flexible but durable wire.
A more advanced locksmith kit might have a bunch of commonly used "skeleton" templates. The advantage over a bit of wire is if you happen to have just the right outline,
you get the lock open instantly and with no additional noise as you fumble about.
Now, for the most advanced locks, we're talking highly secure vaults, the keys would have very intricate shapes and you'd need to make an impression of the original
(basically press it against the wax) then make a copy in the workshop.
This of course would be problematic in game, because if you've already gotten your hands on something, you almost never need to give it back, so tackling each such lock would basically need its own questline.
Since it's basically about tracing the shape, a more gamey but still realistic approach would be if you were to look at the key and then try and recreate the desired outline from memory,
one that is "just right" to bypass the warding internals and is still able to exert enough force to push the mechanism open.
It's not exactly rocket surgery, but would require a bit of knowledge about how a lock is built, and I expect artisans behind it would be pretty secretive about this shit.

Then again, if it's the 1400s we're talking most schmucks wouldn't be able to afford locks in the first place. It would be more expensive than whatever bit of valuables they'd be trying to secure.
I read somewhere that people these days tended to rely on hired men for security, and locks were there to keep those hired men honest.

I think the main problem here is that lockpicks are seen as an expendable resource and a broken lockpick is pretty much the only failed state in that particular minigame.
I get that lockpicking is a tactile activity which doesn't translate well to vidya game controls, but the fact of the matter is - picks in games break way too fucking much.

 

[SlamDunk]

The soundtrack is great indeed, but if I see one more tweet, video etc. about it I will go crazy.

 

[Modron]

Btw this new spoiler feature sucks so much ass.

Spoiler

so why choose to use it?

 

[Kleptocratic debt serf]

Just picked up Kingdom Come: Deliverance Royal edition for $9.99 at gog, 75% off, which seemed like a decent buy for base game & DLCs... Any must have mods or should I play it vanilla?

 

[RobotSquirrel]

alchemy: by far the best and most interesting skill to use. I love how each recipe requires different steps to create the necessary potion. Lots of fun

Its lots of fun until you unlock the perk that removes the mini-game entirely making it instant. Much like Morrowind it is a very game breaking thing especially for the in-game economy, it renders acquiring resources redundant. I feel like it could've been done better.
You're in fact punishing the player for getting good at something because you're reducing its interactivity when really it should be getting more complex.

reading: it makes sense how you progress and learn skills. I find myself taking 2-3 days on most books

I do really love how it handled reading. The fact that the game starts you off as illiterate is an awesome thing because it makes you feel accomplished when your character can finally read.

pickpocketing: a unique system, I have never seen anything quite like it and its creates a real challenge every time you commit this crime

Pickpocketing is something that I feel a lot of games get wrong, they did a good attempt with this game but unfortunately I see no need when I can just knock the person out and steal what I want anyway, I found too few instances where I needed to use it, just wait till night, sneak into their room and beat em up.

Also to play without map markers, I find a major landmark, align myself to the landmark for heading, check the map. I then know what my heading is. Look around the surroundings until I can figure out where North, South, East and West are. If all else fails head to the highest point that you can as its pretty obvious then where you are. Getting lost in the Forrest can suck so mostly I just keep moving until I find signage, landmarks or a river that indicate roughly where I am. Camp sites are really handy in forests. You'll also have an easy time if you align yourself towards your objective heading before leaving town as then you can pretty much travel straight ahead and just be mindful if you have to deviate due to a river or cliff. The worst is if you have to evade bandits as most of the time I get disorientated and forget what my heading was, so best you just head to the highest point again or use the roads to get your heading back.

 

[BruceVC]

Just picked up Kingdom Come: Deliverance Royal edition for $9.99 at gog, 75% off, which seemed like a decent buy for base game & DLCs... Any must have mods or should I play it vanilla?

Your post sounds like exactly what I asked when I first played KC:D 3 weeks ago

I generally always use mods for all games I play, I find mods enhance the overall experience but I make sure the mods dont unbalance any game and I make sure they lore friendly. I included the post I made where Yosharian gave me suggested mods

If you want a hardcore experience than most people will tell you dont use mods on first playthrough but in my opinion as someone playing this game now the mods below dont detract from the overall fun or challenge in any significant way. But one mod that I would absolutely recommend is the " save anywhere\unlimited saving" mod especially if you new to the game. The mechanics take time to learn, like combat and lockpicking, and you want to be able to restore while you learn things

The game does provide a " normal " saving system using a specific potion but its not adequate if you are a newbie and learning.

But its an amazing game and well worth playing, keep us updated of your progress

I have some exciting news, I have decided to play KC:D next. Are there any non-spoiler suggestions about the game that people can suggest and are there any " must have " mods I should install. I went onto Nexus and there doesnt seem be anything significant?

I dont know much about this game except its known as a realistic and entertaining medieval experience

Ok so here is my current modlist:

Yet Another Sorting Mod (PTF)
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/1438
- very cool mod that sorts items based on their categories. Awesome QoL.
- the author of this mod has updated many other mods, go to the Posts section and look at the top pinned comment
- from that pinned comment I use the following mods that Drake0713 has updated (use HIS LINKS):
-- Alternate Food Spoil PTF version (I can't be bothered with food spoilage)
-- Harvest Range PTF version (It reduces the grind from herb picking massively)
-- Richer Fences PTF version (this one is probably the most cheaty one, it makes fences wayyy better)
-- Subtle Random Encounters PTF version
-- Perk Fixes

Archery Mod - Faster Arrows
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/1376
- makes archery less shit

Faster Archery - PTF Edition (HARD)
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/1100
- makes archery less shit

Balanced Bows In Tiers
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/1125
- some slightly improved itemization for bows

Bushes - Collision Remover
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/591
- great QoL mod

Enhanced Eyes/Hair
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/969
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/922
- self-explanatory

Instant Herb Picking with Hand Movement
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/367
- makes herb picking not make you want to kill yourself

More Artwork Loading Screens
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/638
- self-explanatory

Poison Overhaul
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/765
- makes poison less shit

No Aim Spread (Perks version)
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/1375
- makes bow progression nicer by adding two bow perks

Stay Clean Longer (PTF)
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/1232
- makes staying clean less tedious / more realistic

HD Clock Retexture
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/353
- self-explanatory

Unlimited Saving
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/1
- self-explanatory, don't use if you want to try KCD's stupid saving system

Weightless Stackables
https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/890
- nice QoL mod but definitely removes some realism

I built this list by looking at the things I wanted to change about the game and determining what the best mods for that were (i.e. bow changes because im making a bow / thief character) and then I also looked at some of the most up-to-date modlists and poached good mods from there. I also relied quite a bit on Drake0713's wisdom regarding what were some good additions to the list, and used quite a few of his updated versions of other mods.

Lastly if you are going to take a more traditional knight approach to combat using shields, armor, swords etc, then I would highly recommend looking at some lightweight mod that tweaks master strikes or the way the AI uses them, as Modron suggests. As I said I'm making a thiefy character this time so I didn't bother.

 

[GamingConnoisseur]

I hate when games have one playstyle that triumphs over others. And yes, I'm talking about archery on horseback. Enemies CAN'T counter this. Even if they have archers you can just separate main enemy knights from the rest by simply galloping away from the battle. And the AI doesn't really have "tracking" behavior, so the archers just carry on with their everyday NPC business as you lose their line of sight.
The only way to fix it would be to make AI really smart and make them hide behind cover inside buildings/forests instead of chasing you in straight line, or by adding a cavalry enemy type. In addition enemy formations could be useful here. Knights should stick with archers when you are on horseback.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I hate when games have one playstyle that triumphs over others. And yes, I'm talking about archery on horseback. Enemies CAN'T counter this

t. Mount and Blade

 

[BruceVC]

I hate when games have one playstyle that triumphs over others. And yes, I'm talking about archery on horseback. Enemies CAN'T counter this. Even if they have archers you can just separate main enemy knights from the rest by simply galloping away from the battle. And the AI doesn't really have "tracking" behavior, so the archers just carry on with their everyday NPC business as you lose their line of sight.
The only way to fix it would be to make AI really smart and make them hide behind cover inside buildings/forests instead of chasing you in straight line, or by adding a cavalry enemy type. In addition enemy formations could be useful here. Knights should stick with archers when you are on horseback.

Interesting, I haven't committed to any combat on my horse. I use stealth and arrows to initially kill and weaken bandit and Cuman camps and then fight people on foot but I havent used my horse once for combat

 

[SlamDunk]

Just picked up Kingdom Come: Deliverance Royal edition for $9.99 at gog, 75% off, which seemed like a decent buy for base game & DLCs... Any must have mods or should I play it vanilla?

No modifications is the best way to play KCD.

 

[Modron]

Maybe get instant herb picking since it could add up to some real time saving over the course of the entire game.

https://www.nexusmods.com/kingdomcomedeliverance/mods/367

 

[HoboForEternity]

I played with instant herb picking and no bushes collision. Just finished my second playtrough yesterday. Not hardcore though. I tried to emulate hardcore As much as possible, but by the end i just fast travel everywhere because it got old in the last stretch.

 

[BruceVC]

I played with instant herb picking and no bushes collision. Just finished my second playtrough yesterday. Not hardcore though. I tried to emulate hardcore As much as possible, but by the end i just fast travel everywhere because it got old in the last stretch.

Interestingly enough Im also playing on normal mode but I dont ever fast travel by choice, Im 75 hours into this game and the only when some quests automatically fast travel do I use it

I enjoy manual travelling around the land on my trusty horse. I like landscape the overall beauty of the world.

 

[behold_a_man]

alchemy: by far the best and most interesting skill to use. I love how each recipe requires different steps to create the necessary potion. Lots of fun

Its lots of fun until you unlock the perk that removes the mini-game entirely making it instant. Much like Morrowind it is a very game breaking thing especially for the in-game economy, it renders acquiring resources redundant. I feel like it could've been done better.
You're in fact punishing the player for getting good at something because you're reducing its interactivity when really it should be getting more complex.

For me it seems quite logical to make some aspect of the game different than combat and relying on muscle memory automatic after getting hang of it. What is your preferred solution, allowing the player to make fully-fledged automated schnapps distillery himself? From my perspective, they could either:
a) Making the process automatic, which they did, after making first potion.
b) Do nothing, making potion making in the end game (when you know necessary recipes by heart, and you are only limited by the time it takes a game to acknowledge your actions) quite mundane.
c) Allow the player to automatize the process in some way - though I guess the idea of Henry spearheading the industrial revolution in medieval Bohemia would be problematic at best.

 

[Harthwain]

alchemy: by far the best and most interesting skill to use. I love how each recipe requires different steps to create the necessary potion. Lots of fun

Its lots of fun until you unlock the perk that removes the mini-game entirely making it instant. Much like Morrowind it is a very game breaking thing especially for the in-game economy, it renders acquiring resources redundant. I feel like it could've been done better.
You're in fact punishing the player for getting good at something because you're reducing its interactivity when really it should be getting more complex.

For me it seems quite logical to make some aspect of the game different than combat and relying on muscle memory automatic after getting hang of it. What is your preferred solution, allowing the player to make fully-fledged automated schnapps distillery himself?

Frankly, I like the automatic potion making skill AS AN OPTION. People who like to create potions can still make them by hand (and save themselves a skill point), while people who don't like it have the option to automate the process at cost of efficiency (meaning there is a trade-off).

 

[RobotSquirrel]

Frankly, I like the automatic potion making skill AS AN OPTION. People who like to create potions can still make them by hand (and save themselves a skill point), while people who don't like it have the option to automate the process at cost of efficiency (meaning there is a trade-off).

100% this. You do both and let the user pick which one they want.

I've debated this myself for my own projects, yes its awesome having a process where the player is involved in it and its good from restricting the players overall impact on the economy, that said it is incredibly mundane and repetitive but also a point that if the player can mass produce items it completely defeats the purpose of resource management as a gameplay system, and thus defeats the entire point of crafting in general. I'm more in favour of it being tedious but allowing for hard to get ways to optimise it not through grinding obviously which is what KCD gets very wrong.

I think that games like KCD work their best in the struggling hobo phase, they feel their worst when you're flooded with resources so a big part of getting it right is that economy management side and asking "does the player really need to produce 1000 savior schnapps". Tying it to the save system was a big mistake obviously because it encourages this economy breaking play style, you have to out of convenience otherwise you're potentially losing hours of progress which is infuriating in hardcore mode.

Process Driven Crafting (Active) (Player Driven)		Automatic Crafting (Passive) (Character Driven)
Good	Bad	Good	Bad
Interactive, makes you feel like you're actually making the item and going through a process. A greater sense in pride of the item you have acquired. Encourages resource management which in turn encourages exploration. Encourages experimentation. (Customisation is a big draw here) Slows the player down enough so that they don't break the economy. Feels like a job	Extremely tedious and repetitive. Players may become bored with it and avoid the system entirely. Requires its own process on the developer end for every unique item which can be difficult to implement Feels like a job	Its faster than the alternative so it allows the player to get back to the fun. Allows the player to accumulate lots of resources easily. Can allow you to craft everything imaginable which is great for modding as there is no need for complex systems. (see RimWorld) Feels less like grinding.	Extremely game breaking when done excessively, floods the game economy with junk. Makes the player feel like they can basically do what ever they want since money is no longer a factor. Reduces the resource management aspect of the game to mundane and unimportant. It becomes a redundant system. Takes the player out of the game world as it has no interactivity so you're really just waiting. Almost feels like cheating, like you've programmed a macro bot and walked away from the machine so it effectively rewards you for not even playing the game which is really bad.

I think both makes sense but the way I look at it, Player Driven is perfect for Craftsmanship, Character Driven is better for Mass Production. Gating the systems behind tech-trees or a particularly crafting bench makes sense, and restricting what items can and can't be made also makes sense, that the player driven crafting should always be much more rewarding and the character driven should have limitations based on economies of scale- there should be clear limitations like warehouse caps that prevent you making items that the economy doesn't want (Sid Meire's Colonisation and The Guild approach to the problem).
These crafting systems are very hard to get right so I don't really blame Warhorse for whats happened here, but I will say yeah it should've been a difficulty option. Same with the save system.

Also I don't think "just don't use it" cuts it for KCD, it really should be baked into the difficulty because its too tempting to switch to automatic. It's something I should be discouraging myself from using but the tedious nature combined with the need to save using potions makes me want to use it out of a comfort need. I don't feel comfortable walking around with <10 Savior Schnapps if I'm going on a full day trip.

 

[cvv]

if the player can mass produce items it completely defeats the purpose of resource management........... Tying it to the save system was a big mistake obviously because it encourages this economy breaking play style,

Yes but saving in KCD isn't just limited by the number of schnapps you can mass produce. It's also tied to the alcohol and satiety mechanism, i.e. if you're spamming quicksave you WILL get drunk and overfed, with all the maluses that entails.

So from mid-game on the real problem isn't the automated alchemy perk. It's very easy to mass produce the schnapps even without it. I've never taken it bc I enjoyed alchemy so much and it's a matter of like 5 minutes to create your schnapps stock for the next 5 hours of play.

The real problem is actually using your schnapps as often as you might want. For instance in situations where you have to do several fights in a row you can't just schapps-save after every enemy wave bc by the time you'll get to the end you'll be drunk as a Russian and barely able to move due to overeating.

The whole schnapps mechanism leaves some space for fine-tuning but overall it's the best thing about the game and a much needed solution to the quicksave spamming problem, so pathological in most RPGs.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

The whole schnapps mechanism leaves some space for fine-tuning but overall it's the best thing about the game and a much needed solution to the quicksave spamming problem, so pathological in most RPGs.

Oh I agree, I like the consequences of the system its entirely there to prevent savescumming which is good don't get me wrong, It's mostly to do with the quests because the quests don't give you much break in between important timed decisions which is why I mass produce it. It can be extremely frustrating in hardcore if you accidentally took a wrong turn and the timer ran out and after a while I get the sinking feeling "its been a while since I last saved" during the main quest line. Otherwise I rarely use saviour schnapps and instead just sleep to save. Combat is easy enough that you don't need to save scum.

I did find it stressful to complete the main quests without any map markers and still get good outcomes which is why I needed to mass produce them because having to redo an entire chunk of a quest chain with navigating takes time. I most definitely am overdoing it but part of that is a result of min-maxing the intro, you end up with so much nettle doing it so I just go ahead and mass produce it at the start of the game its a good way to get those levels up (especially strength from the herbalist perk).

There are definitely things they could have done to discourage this play style, such as maybe making it so you could only sell a few potions at a time. Making it so your horse gets annoyed if you have too many herbs in storage.