KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Yosharian]

Normal doesn't apply any "level drain" automatically. Level drain is a rare effect from, mostly, higher level spells and a high level, rarely used, weapon enchantment. This is what normal difficulty modifies. The change only affects spells resistance and armour class - at least according to help files. This means that if the video wasn't showing mid game at least AND the players wasn't spamming the effect AND the enemy had SR (in case of spells) to begin with - the option didn't do squat - at least to my knowledge. Also See "observer bias".

So yes, there is a difference between Normal and Hard in combat but it isn't a big one and not early in game at all. The death threshold change is, probably, the bigger one of the two between normal and hard difficulties. The big difference in combat is between normal/hard vs Archmage, namely the initiative.

The in-game help says "Negative levels may be assigned to certain opponents, depending on the Difficulty level. Negative levels resulting from the difficulty setting apply a penalty to Armour Class and Spell Resistance, as well as the standard effects of negative levels detailed below". Then it goes on to list Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, Hit Points, and Effective Level (affecting spellcasting/psionic powers).

Yes and it does make a big difference to the fight.

Anyway my problem isn't with the way the fight is designed, exactly, it's with the number tuning for an early fight in what is meant to be a tutorial module, and also the way the grids are displayed to the player is super frustrating and not at all comparable to the solid design of KOTC1.

I had an issue last night in later fights where I couldn't quite position my fighter correctly so that he could get cleave followups, it seemed like he was in range because he is adjacent, but the game nopes out of it and says no actually he's two squares away, sorry.

Regardless, I am totally addicted and cannot play anything else right now

 

[Fireblade]

Given all the positioning problems you've mentioned...are you using sprites, or tokens? I ended up switching to tokens because it made positioning so much easier, it's like a completely different world. Also when using tokens you can see each unit's health on the token, and you can turn on green/red circles around each token for friendly/hostile.

 

[Sacibengala]

Finally bit the bullet. Month changed, got some to spare, I hope it's worth it. We'll see...

Matt uploaded a long video playthrough, by the way, don't know if it was posted here before.
https://youtu.be/0t6b8Ae6cWQ

 

[Achiman]

I'm up to the spider queen fight and my will to push on is being eroded at just how aids having 0 campfires is in this main sewer. I have found one, which was right after you literally kill 60 mobs waiting for you after your first two steps from the crones.
When you need to cast spells to have a chance at all and there is a fight every 10 metres it'gets a bit old.
There is maybe... just maybe a bit too much combat or the balance with resting needs a tweak imo. Feels like the game cheeses you on some of the rolls as well, the RNGesus for dispelling or avoiding petrification etc is sus it feels.

 

[Darth Roxor]

i hope you realise there are consoomables that can refresh your spell slots and from what i remember they are plenty plentiful

 

[Yosharian]

Given all the positioning problems you've mentioned...are you using sprites, or tokens? I ended up switching to tokens because it made positioning so much easier, it's like a completely different world. Also when using tokens you can see each unit's health on the token, and you can turn on green/red circles around each token for friendly/hostile.

Ahh yeah I might try that, I do like the effect of having sprites though to be fair

 

[Fireblade]

Given all the positioning problems you've mentioned...are you using sprites, or tokens? I ended up switching to tokens because it made positioning so much easier, it's like a completely different world. Also when using tokens you can see each unit's health on the token, and you can turn on green/red circles around each token for friendly/hostile.

Ahh yeah I might try that, I do like the effect of having sprites though to be fair

Give it a try in a few combats, and you may never go back. Also keep in mind you can modify the token that's used for each of your characters at any time (click on their portrait on the char sheet). Set recognizable ones so you know who's where at a glance, that will be a big improvement over the sprites too. Alt+T toggles between the two modes if you don't already know that.

 

[Achiman]

i hope you realise there are consoomables that can refresh your spell slots and from what i remember they are plenty plentiful

Yeah, i probably (definitely) fucked up by not buying them all from teh ratmen when I had the chance. A convenient cave collapse means I can't go back. Oh well... save scumming and RNGesus it is.

 

[Yosharian]

Why the hell does this Gareth chap have 3 domain powers?

 

[Yosharian]

Any thoughts on what the best summoning domain power is?

Spoiler

Seems like the Undead immunities from the ghoul warrior would be pretty sick, but the inevitable's DR could be somewhat useful too I guess.

 

[Fireblade]

Six attacks could be a big benefit at times. Lots of mirror images to burn through in this game.

 

[Trash Player]

bards are a weird in-between of martials, rogues and casters. they get enough feats and weapon proficiencies to be useful in combat but not enough to come close to a real martial. their songs are really useful though, not only the ones that buff but the offensive ones as well. pipes of pain and heavenly song are as good as some control spells, and arcane rhyme is great for magic-centric parties.

Read the rules, man. Pierre removed the rogue out of bard. Full BAB and no rogue skill. Their extra skill is even Nature. They are not much worse than martials with no wade-in if built similarly.
The SLAs that check DC are not bad and come earlier but mind affecting effect isn't worth too much investment. Imo, building them as a martial with choice SLAs is better than going all in SLAs,
seeing the most scalable ability is Arcane Rhyme anyway.

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah but I figure that a lot of the time it's going to end up succumbing to AOE stuff or maybe even getting charmed or whatever. I figured an Undead summon is pretty unique and could be immune to a lot of nasty stuff that enemies might throw at me. Plus, it still has two attacks and if any of them land it could paralyse the enemy.

 

[Yosharian]

bards are a weird in-between of martials, rogues and casters. they get enough feats and weapon proficiencies to be useful in combat but not enough to come close to a real martial. their songs are really useful though, not only the ones that buff but the offensive ones as well. pipes of pain and heavenly song are as good as some control spells, and arcane rhyme is great for magic-centric parties.

Read the rules, man. Pierre removed the rogue out of bard. Full BAB and no rogue skill. Their extra skill is even Nature. They are not much worse than martials with no wade-in if built similarly.
The SLAs that check DC are not bad and come earlier but mind affecting effect isn't worth too much investment. Imo, building them as a martial with choice SLAs is better than going all in SLAs,
seeing the most scalable ability is Arcane Rhyme anyway.

How would you build them though? Weapon finesse and rapier your way to some piddling damage? It just seems like it will be really awful.

I am disappointed that he has turned them into martials TBH, I am considering replacing mine with another Wizard, or perhaps a Sorcerer (though Pierre made them weird too), but I dunno I guess the songs are really useful

They seem like they will mostly be useful early game when the songs are quite potent and there is still some utility in being able to give martials small but effective bonuses. Lategame I think I'd rather just have another Wizard flinging around level 9 spells.

But even throughout the game, another Wizard is another source of potent crowd-control, buffs, etc, that are at least comparable to what the Bard brings? In absolute terms the Bard's DC-boosting song can't be replicated, but the presence of another caster flinging even more spells is probably at the very least as powerful as boosting everyone else's spells by +3.

 

[Serus]

Normal doesn't apply any "level drain" automatically. Level drain is a rare effect from, mostly, higher level spells and a high level, rarely used, weapon enchantment. This is what normal difficulty modifies. The change only affects spells resistance and armour class - at least according to help files. This means that if the video wasn't showing mid game at least AND the players wasn't spamming the effect AND the enemy had SR (in case of spells) to begin with - the option didn't do squat - at least to my knowledge. Also See "observer bias".

So yes, there is a difference between Normal and Hard in combat but it isn't a big one and not early in game at all. The death threshold change is, probably, the bigger one of the two between normal and hard difficulties. The big difference in combat is between normal/hard vs Archmage, namely the initiative.

The in-game help says "Negative levels may be assigned to certain opponents, depending on the Difficulty level. Negative levels resulting from the difficulty setting apply a penalty to Armour Class and Spell Resistance, as well as the standard effects of negative levels detailed below". Then it goes on to list Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, Hit Points, and Effective Level (affecting spellcasting/psionic powers).

edit: also just pulled up a normal mode save-game I have in chapter 4, got into a fight, examined a Black Wizard, and in the Effects tab it says "Condition: Reduced Difficulty Negative Levels +2". A Warlock in this fight has it, too. Most of the enemies don't though.

Yeah, I checked it as well and i have it on some enemies enemies but not on most. I simply haven't noticed the effect. That was what made me think that it works only with existing negative levels. Maybe that was one of reasons the game felt too easy somehow - at least when you fight those enemies that have it.
How many levels are we talkig about? I only found it at one battle in Chapter 2 and it was 2 levels - which isn't huge but later in game that might be more?

I am now confused completely. What is the logic in this? And why is it not mentioned in the help that only some enemies have it and not others then? Pierre...

I'm sorry if I confused anyone else who read my post. And Yosharian, you were right.

Anyway i don't like it at all as an option - even less its execution. The 25% less initiative i like, it works across the board (i think) and is easier to quantify the effects. The increased death threshold has merits and logic to it as well. But this... meh

Pierre...

 

[Yosharian]

I mean it's fine, now that I got past that fight I am really enjoying the rest of the module.

Except those giant spiders. They can fuck right off.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Fuck you too man.

 

[Serus]

bards are a weird in-between of martials, rogues and casters. they get enough feats and weapon proficiencies to be useful in combat but not enough to come close to a real martial. their songs are really useful though, not only the ones that buff but the offensive ones as well. pipes of pain and heavenly song are as good as some control spells, and arcane rhyme is great for magic-centric parties.

Read the rules, man. Pierre removed the rogue out of bard. Full BAB and no rogue skill. Their extra skill is even Nature. They are not much worse than martials with no wade-in if built similarly.
The SLAs that check DC are not bad and come earlier but mind affecting effect isn't worth too much investment. Imo, building them as a martial with choice SLAs is better than going all in SLAs,
seeing the most scalable ability is Arcane Rhyme anyway.

The fact that one has full BAB doesn't make "not much worse than martials" in my opinion. They don't only lack Wade-in of fighter but compared to fighters:
a) they lack tons of feats and from the ones they have you need some that bard has for bard abilities if you those skills to be effective. So ~1/3 of number of feats of fighters to fighting skills?
b) fighters have access to many good additional feats and ability to take them, including but not limited to: superior and oversized two-weapons-fighting, strength focus, 3x shake it off, damge focus and more...
c) Bards can't use some weapons and armor withe their abilities iirc. Depending on build - either irrelevant or not.
Other martials like Gladiators or Samurais have strong skills that make them better at being martials. And still more feats for fighting and better selection.

There are several classes with full BAB + some magic(-like) abilities: Champion, Paladin, Storm Warrior(?), etc... Most are much, much worse than pure martial classes at hitting things with sticks.

 

[Serus]

I mean it's fine, now that I got past that fight I am really enjoying the rest of the module.

Except those giant spiders. They can fuck right off.

I told you. I might have been wrong on the negative level thing but i was right about something at least. Have fun.

 

[Fireblade]

Yeah, I checked it as well and i have it on some enemies enemies but not on most. I simply haven't noticed the effect. That was what made me think that it works only with existing negative levels. Maybe that was one of reasons the game felt too easy somehow - at least when you fight those enemies that have it.
How many levels are we talkig about? I only found it at one battle in Chapter 2 and it was 2 levels - which isn't huge but later in game that might be more?

I am now confused completely. What is the logic in this? And why is it not mentioned in the help that only some enemies have it and not others then? Pierre...

In the big fight I checked in chapter 4, the +2 negative levels was only on enemy warlocks and wizards, but not on clerics or martial dudes. Maybe the notion is to nerf their offensive spellcasting a bit in normal mode?

 

[Jermu]

where did u find wade in item?

 

[Fireblade]

where did u find wade in item?

Spoiler

You mean the Belt of the Lion, right? If so, it's on the merchants in the northeastern area of chapter 3, the blueish rooms.

 

[Serus]

Anyone played Haerkenwold? In KotC2 engine or otherwise? How long it is and at what level are you supposed to finish the module?

 

[Dorateen]

Anyone played Haerkenwold? In KotC2 engine or otherwise? How long it is and at what level are you supposed to finish the module?

I've received feedback of playthroughs around 25 to 30 hours. Depends on how completionist one is. 9th level seems to be where most characters finish. The pace is a lot slower than Augury of Chaos.

 

[Yosharian]

Bro what the fuck is up with this arrow puzzle in the tutorial. It's preventing me from advancing. The game says I already have the solution in my inventory but I can't figure it out.