KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[JarlFrank]

LMA dungeons and encounter design is

non-existent because it's procedural.

Proc gen white knights are gonna rate my post with agenda, but deep down you all know it to be true.

 

[Desiderius]

RE: Ugly tokens

If enough codexers postulate for a joint effort, we could generate a token pack using D&D bestiaries to replace all the uggos bundled with the game while keeping a consistent look. Since it won't be a commercial release, and it'll be adjoined to no one's name, we don't have to worry about its legal status.

There's one token pack on the Nexus that gives you enough appealing/distinctive tokens to play the game fine. I'm just too lazy to remove all the garbage Pierre included with the game so have to keep scrolling thru. There are even a few decent ones there.

 

[PorkaMorka]

And?
Have you played the game?
On a scale from 0 to 1000, Low Magic Age Encounter design rating is -2 000 000.
Dungeon exploration is also terrible.
Quest are generic fetch quests outside of the main story, which wasn't really interesting either last time I played.

You dislike the art, fine, enjoy LMA then...

By the way, are you a backer?
Because if you're not, you better shut your trap since Pierre never hid 2D animated sprites with the new extended bestiary was too expensive.

Anyway, the only way to fix it is to make a big donation, thanks in advance.

I'm a past customer of KOTC1 and a potential purchaser of this game, but so far I haven't bought it because I disagree with almost every design decision he made between KOTC1 and KOTC2.

It's not my intent to clog this thread and I largely stayed out of it after the price point was announced, since I'm waiting for a sale, however Jarl asked why people didn't like tokens so I felt it was appropriate to respond.

Low Magic Age is Chinese shovelware that originally cost under $5. I don't like it, although I might have gotten $5 worth of half-hearted "fun" out of it. If you want to call that fun. I never claimed that it was overall better than KOTC2.

I simply pointed out that has better looking (or at least more market acceptable) graphics and a better looking interface, despite the fact that tokens and tiles are basically the same level of technology, despite the fact that it's at least partially from asset packs.

The developer didn't necessarily spend more, he just made better decisions on how to piece together his product in order to create a more market acceptable look at $5 price point. KOTC2 is firmly in the Jeff Vogel territory of a game that is unnecessarily ugly. The same technology level and resources could have been used to create a significantly less ugly game if different decisions were made.

This is relevant to the commercial success of the game and the potential size of the future module making community.

 

[Desiderius]

he made a release on steam = money
he could have made more with better and consistent art whether its token or sprites.

He's bad at that shit.

Instead of biting his ankles help a brother out.

https://medium.com/@robert.f.willia...a-precedent-in-the-employment-of-9f8548657045

 

[Serus]

LMA dungeons and encounter design is QUOTE]

non-existent because it's procedural.

Proc gen white knights are gonna rate my post with agenda, but deep down you all know it to be true.

This is simply logically wrong. Procedural != completely random - and has to be for the design to be non-existent. An example: most would agree that enemy composition is part of encounter design, right? Well, composition is certainly not completely random in any game with procedural elements that i know of. There are possible composition of enemies, which enemies can go with others, often in what numbers and proportions, how they are positioned (archers in the back) etc... And those parameters are decided consciously by the developers. Ergo, without a doubt, it's design. You may say that it is a simplistic design but you can't say it is non existent. In addition an alghoritm made by a competent designer can give better rresult than hand made encounter by a bad designer or one without time or lazy.

 

[Desiderius]

And?
Have you played the game?
On a scale from 0 to 1000, Low Magic Age Encounter design rating is -2 000 000.
Dungeon exploration is also terrible.
Quest are generic fetch quests outside of the main story, which wasn't really interesting either last time I played.

You dislike the art, fine, enjoy LMA then...

By the way, are you a backer?
Because if you're not, you better shut your trap since Pierre never hid 2D animated sprites with the new extended bestiary was too expensive.

Anyway, the only way to fix it is to make a big donation, thanks in advance.

I'm a past customer of KOTC1 and a potential purchaser of this game, but so far I haven't bought it because I disagree with almost every design decision he made between KOTC1 and KOTC2.

It's not my intent to clog this thread and I largely stayed out of it after the price point was announced, since I'm waiting for a sale, however Jarl asked why people didn't like tokens so I felt it was appropriate to respond.

Low Magic Age is Chinese shovelware that originally cost under $5. I don't like it, although I might have gotten $5 worth of half-hearted "fun" out of it. If you want to call that fun. I never claimed that it was overall better than KOTC2.

I simply pointed out that has better looking (or at least more market acceptable) graphics and a better looking interface, despite the fact that tokens and tiles are basically the same level of technology, despite the fact that it's at least partially from asset packs.

The developer didn't necessarily spend more, he just made better decisions on how to piece together his product in order to create a more market acceptable look at $5 price point. KOTC2 is firmly in the Jeff Vogel territory of a game that is unnecessarily ugly. The same technology level and resources could have been used to create a significantly less ugly game if different decisions were made.

This is relevant to the commercial success of the game and the potential size of the future module making community.

Oh for fuck sake. You can be more than a mere customer and if that's all you settle for your life will suck.

The art is crappy because Pierre is autistic. And it's ridiculously cheap for the kind of game it is. It's not meant to be something you toy around with for a weekend and then drop. It's meant to be Gold Box which would be $200 or whatever in today's dollars, and it's better than Gold Box.

 

[Mortmal]

I am glad desiderius's medecine is kicking in, he's now stable enough and seems to genuinely get pleasure from a turn based game. Yes not one of those real time game require "LEET SKILLZZZ". There's even 4-5 posts from him without screenshots, the therapist did wonder.

 

[AdamReith]

At first KOTC 1 was unbearably ugly to me, now I think it's beautiful.

I am expecting a similar journey with KOTC2 but it certainly is a significant step up in ugliness in exchange for a rise in readability.

 

[Tweed]

I didn't think I was going to like the tokens, but they look much better in action. Unfortunately too many normies are going to be turned off by the visuals.

 

[Koolz]

I love Tokens. There so flexible. You can make your own for all the creatures and characters and immerse yourself into the game world.

I was able to find pleasing Tokens for all my characters in the pool of tokens the game offers.

What I need to see though is more depth then what is already there. Deeper Characters and their stories, and lore. There is reactivity but there could be so much more. I don't think the developer should be done with the game.

The battle are like nothing I have experienced before in a game! It's pretty insane!

I have more fun playing this then When I played "Wrath of the Wrongness!"

Music sucks, I turn it off of course. Music directing, poor Sound stage, Poor voices in ensemble on sound stage, lack of compression pushing accents on Main beats and structure of Rhythm, bla bla bla...
"Still even with my criticism I have to say I am happy for the upcoming composers being able to get there music in a project. It's a tough world out there."



I support this guy I am impressed it's one person and his wife. That's really impressive!

He is obviously very intelligent. I am total geek I stare at Stats and Inventory going over Gear.

Reminds me of Dnd Long ago when Conan the Barbarian would Play in the Background back then Things were hard core they were Awesome! Playboy Magazine existed Movies were all just "Better!"

Conan the Barbarian was Horns on Steroids! You had to compose as Thematic development there was no Braaaahhhhhhmmmm

 

[Lim-Dûl]

How is it that the first game looks better than the second game, and the second game, released in 2022, looks worse than games from the 90s? Stop coping and accept the reality that the tokens look terrible.

 

[AdamReith]

How is it that the first game looks better than the second game, and the second game, released in 2022, looks worse than games from the 90s? Stop coping and accept the reality that the tokens look terrible.

All it has to compete with is Goldbox. i.e. Game&Watch level graphics.

 

[Achiman]

I just finished the game, mainly because I got covid on saturday and have to stay in my house an play vidya games.
Anyway, one of the hardest, most unfair rage inducing, uninstalled then immediately reinstalled turn based game I've come across.
I finished the game with my party at level 19, which from what I can tell is slightly underlevelled.
Not sure if it's intended, but spellcasters are godly in this whereas the warrior type classes really (while being helpful and necessary) seem just like meat shields or for mopping up what hasn't been destroyed by the AOE shitshow.

On one hand Pierre is a magnificent bastard for making such challenging turn based combat with hand crafted set pieces that seem impossible until something clicks, you learn, or you get a bit of rngesus.

On the other he's designed a game that is a normie repellant and I doubt will be anywhere nearly as commercially successful as it could have been if he just allowed some more tilting of the scales to the player side.
I convinced my old cheese to buy the game this weekend and after a brief conversation with him on steam today, he's basically getting absolutely raped in the tutorial.
He is not a dnd style of game player typically but has played many turn based games and strategy games.

With a game that is so overwhelming in what you can do (and how the game can fuck you in oh so many ways) some concession to the player in difficulty modification would help Pierre fund KOTC 3.

 

[Desiderius]

I just finished the game, mainly because I got covid on saturday and have to stay in my house an play vidya games.
Anyway, one of the hardest, most unfair rage inducing, uninstalled then immediately reinstalled turn based game I've come across.
I finished the game with my party at level 19, which from what I can tell is slightly underlevelled.
Not sure if it's intended, but spellcasters are godly in this whereas the warrior type classes really (while being helpful and necessary) seem just like meat shields or for mopping up what hasn't been destroyed by the AOE shitshow.

On one hand Pierre is a magnificent bastard for making such challenging turn based combat with hand crafted set pieces that seem impossible until something clicks, you learn, or you get a bit of rngesus.

On the other he's designed a game that is a normie repellant and I doubt will be anywhere nearly as commercially successful as it could have been if he just allowed some more tilting of the scales to the player side.
I convinced my old cheese to buy the game this weekend and after a brief conversation with him on steam today, he's basically getting absolutely raped in the tutorial.
He is not a dnd style of game player typically but has played many turn based games and strategy games.

With a game that is so overwhelming in what you can do (and how the game can fuck you in oh so many ways) some concession to the player in difficulty modification would help Pierre fund KOTC 3.

Normal difficulty is already insanely juiced compared to the original game or even Enchanter (what I’m playing now). The whole point is the joy of the aha! moments. I really don’t get the incessant drive to deprive new players of them and the idea it will be the key to commercial success instead of the main reason contemporary games struggle.

Give people some credit, even those who haven’t discovered the fun of figuring things out for themselves yet.

 

[anvi]

How does the max stats option and the free level up change the game later on? Is it still hard? Because the start of the game seems super easy with those options.

 

[Reinhardt]

basic game is not the prettiest thing but with top down view and tokens there is potential to make it look beautiful. just need some basic map-making skills.

 

[Grunker]

he made a release on steam = money
he could have made more with better and consistent art whether its token or sprites.

He's bad at that shit.

Instead of biting his ankles help a brother out.

Unfortunately Pierre has proved he cannot be helped on this point. Plenty of those of us who bought KotC1 at full price, played the fuck out of it and provided tons of mostly praiseful feedback on his forum had to acknowledge that Pierre is strongly ideologically against ever doing stuff for commercial purposes (such as strategic price slashing).

I'm amazed this game even made it to steam to be frank

 

[AdolfSatan]

There's one token pack on the Nexus that gives you enough appealing/distinctive tokens to play the game fine. I'm just too lazy to remove all the garbage Pierre included with the game so have to keep scrolling thru. There are even a few decent ones there.

My point is to achieve a unified look by drawing from a single (or as little as possible if one's not enough) source and use it specifically to replace all the existing tokens included in KOTC2 (i.e. using the same names) so that simply by extracting and replacing in the appropriate folder, all tokens in the game will be automatically replaced.

But this would require way more time than I'm willing to spend on my own. Now, if a couple of codexers with joined me, I could coordinate an effort to get it done over the course of two weeks without much effort from the involved.

 

[Achiman]

I just finished the game, mainly because I got covid on saturday and have to stay in my house an play vidya games.
Anyway, one of the hardest, most unfair rage inducing, uninstalled then immediately reinstalled turn based game I've come across.
I finished the game with my party at level 19, which from what I can tell is slightly underlevelled.
Not sure if it's intended, but spellcasters are godly in this whereas the warrior type classes really (while being helpful and necessary) seem just like meat shields or for mopping up what hasn't been destroyed by the AOE shitshow.

On one hand Pierre is a magnificent bastard for making such challenging turn based combat with hand crafted set pieces that seem impossible until something clicks, you learn, or you get a bit of rngesus.

On the other he's designed a game that is a normie repellant and I doubt will be anywhere nearly as commercially successful as it could have been if he just allowed some more tilting of the scales to the player side.
I convinced my old cheese to buy the game this weekend and after a brief conversation with him on steam today, he's basically getting absolutely raped in the tutorial.
He is not a dnd style of game player typically but has played many turn based games and strategy games.

With a game that is so overwhelming in what you can do (and how the game can fuck you in oh so many ways) some concession to the player in difficulty modification would help Pierre fund KOTC 3.

Normal difficulty is already insanely juiced compared to the original game or even Enchanter (what I’m playing now). The whole point is the joy of the aha! moments. I really don’t get the incessant drive to deprive new players of them and the idea it will be the key to commercial success instead of the main reason contemporary games struggle.

Give people some credit, even those who haven’t discovered the fun of figuring things out for themselves yet.

The point is to get them to play the game long enough to recommend it and enjoy it.
Challenging games can be their own reward I agree , but arbitrary difficulty and route learning of encounters when you might not have the stamina or background in these sorts of games is certainly going to drive away some of his potential audience.
He's already got the price at the utter limits for an indie game, getting punched right in the face (metaphorically) right after you purchase it might not get everyone grinning ear to ear like you.

When Pierre irons out some of the last bugs he should also look at seeing if he can speed up the turns, if possible, some of these fights take a hour plus!

 

[JarlFrank]

How does the max stats option and the free level up change the game later on? Is it still hard? Because the start of the game seems super easy with those options.

Challenging but no longer cruel. The easiest part is the first chapter after Finchbury and the Low Sewers, because of the levels you gain in Finchbury.

You used to start in the cult lair at level 1 or 2. Now you can go up to level 5 before even setting foot in there.

 

[Desiderius]

Challenging games can be their own reward I agree , but arbitrary difficulty and route learning of encounters when you might not have the stamina or background in these sorts of games is certainly going to drive away some of his potential audience.
He's already got the price at the utter limits for an indie game, getting punched right in the face (metaphorically) right after you purchase it might not get everyone grinning ear to ear like you.

When Pierre irons out some of the last bugs he should also look at seeing if he can speed up the turns, if possible, some of these fights take a hour plus!

It's the polar opposite of arbitrary, especially the tutorial which is an absolute aha! generating work of art and quite a bit more difficult than the main game. The price point is cheap compared to the other entertainment options it's competing with in terms of time and engagement. I mean look at what people blow on Funko Pops or whatever.

This isn't the usual quickie indie game.

You're making the exact same mistake Sawyer makes in describing your enjoyment then imagining that no other potential players could possibly experience the same thing so denying it to them. It's some kind of bizarre superiority complex.

 

[Desiderius]

There's one token pack on the Nexus that gives you enough appealing/distinctive tokens to play the game fine. I'm just too lazy to remove all the garbage Pierre included with the game so have to keep scrolling thru. There are even a few decent ones there.

My point is to achieve a unified look by drawing from a single (or as little as possible if one's not enough) source and use it specifically to replace all the existing tokens included in KOTC2 (i.e. using the same names) so that simply by extracting and replacing in the appropriate folder, all tokens in the game will be automatically replaced.

But this would require way more time than I'm willing to spend on my own. Now, if a couple of codexers with joined me, I could coordinate an effort to get it done over the course of two weeks without much effort from the involved.

Sounds awesome. Let's do it.

 

[Reinhardt]

The price point is insanely cheap

Pierre reading codex: I KNEW IT!

 

[Darth Canoli]

How does the max stats option and the free level up change the game later on? Is it still hard? Because the start of the game seems super easy with those options.

It reminds me of half the codex whinging about Dark Sun: Shattered Lands being too easy because they used max attribute cheats and tri-classed their characters...

No it's not, sure, compared to everything else, it's probably difficult but max attributes means way higher saving throws, better AC, better THC, higher HP ...
What do you think it does?

You'll get what you deserve.
Free level up just allows you to make some shopping early on and don't matter much later.

Honestly, chapters 1 & 2 are insanely fun and replayable infinitely along with early chapter 3 so, if you find it too hard by then, change the settings but starting on max difficulty, particularly with the extra village content is really rewarding.
I've completed the game 3 times but reached chapter 4 twice as much, probably even 7 or 8 times, it tells you how fun it is since I usually get bored between half an hour and half a playthrough with most of the games released during the last 20 years.

 

[Jasede]

Acorns of Earthquake? Surprise rounds?

What kind of watered down piss ale did the game turn into?

When we tested the game we fought 16 cultists at level 3 using spit and sticks, and we liked it.

Oh yeah and the game crashed every few minutes so when you won you often had to redo it because it crashed after.

If your save game didn't corrupt.