KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Darth Canoli]

Also, as someone who pledged 500 bucks to the Kickstarter I obviously don't have a problem with the price on a personal level. But I still believe Pierre should lower it in order to attract a larger audience, which will only be beneficial to his finances and the game's modding scene. 40 Eurobucks is way too fucking much and not priced competitively at all. There are many other tactical RPGs out there, and while KotC2 is definitely the best gameplay-wise (but not visually), it shouldn't be priced so much higher than everything else in the genre. People who play games like this are likely familiar with what the average price for a tactical RPG looks like, and will notice that KotC2 is way overpriced compared to its peers.

Let's compare, shall we:

The recently released Telepath Tactics Liberated costs 20,99€
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1849820/Telepath_Tactics_Liberated/

It's got a similar level of complexity to its combat as KotC2, but with a ruleset that's more inspired by Japanese SRPGs like Fire Emblem. Really good game, and a fair price that justifies an impulse purchase.

The Age of Fear games cost 24,99€ and there's a discounted bundle to get them all. Pierre should have done a bundle like that for KotC 1 + 2, too.
https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/622/Age_of_Fear_Series_Bundle_Complete/

Age of Fear also has a very simple top-down look that could be compared to KotC2. Considering each game in the series has over 100 user reviews and a positive overall review score, the games are doing pretty well for this niche. I discovered the series when I bought Age of Fear 2 during a summer sale at a massive discount, I only paid 2 bucks for it or so. Loved the game and ended up also buying Age of Fear 3 and 4 when they came out, as well as their DLCs. That's how you create an audience: offer a low barrier of entry, lots of people will impulse buy your game, then the ones who love it will keep buying your stuff. There's also a free version of Age of Fear which only offers random battles rather than a hand-designed campaign, which serves as an extended demo. Anyone can try out the gameplay for free and get a taste of how it plays before shelling out 25 bucks for one of the full-fledged games. Great business model, and the fact that the dev keeps shitting out new Age of Fear titles shows that it works.

The Dungeon of Naheulbeuk, a French parody tactical RPG with pretty good production values, costs 34,99€
https://store.steampowered.com/app/970830/The_Dungeon_Of_Naheulbeuk_The_Amulet_Of_Chaos/

This one is priced at the higher end of the subgenre, yet it's still 5 bucks cheaper than KotC2. Just look at it. As a casual fan of the genre browsing through Steam, you see this for 35 bucks and then you see KotC2 for 40 bucks. Which one will you buy? What are you going to think about KotC2's pricing? You're gonna scratch your head and wonder what's going on, for sure.

Battle Brothers is 27,99€
https://store.steampowered.com/app/365360/Battle_Brothers/

I wouldn't really compare Battle Brothers with KotC2 because they're different types of games: BB has a procedural campaign with no hand-made encounters, which plays very differently to a hand-designed game like KotC. But it's a widely popular tactical RPG... that costs 12 bucks less.

And then you have the lower end of the pricing spectrum with games like these:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/643900/Alvora_Tactics/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1188270/The_Curse_of_Feldar_Vale/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1174030/Hero_Lodge/

So, within the context of the subgenre, KotC

I'm surprised on so many levels.
First, you claim to have given 500€ to the kickstarter campaign and then think 40€ is overpriced.
Secondly, none of the games you mention use a system as complex as KotC 2, home-brew version of 3.5E.
Last and not least, half of them offer only proc. gen. garbage and the ones which don't even come close to the encounter design from KotC 2.

TTL falls short, by mid-game, your enemies can barely harm you anymore.
AoF franchise is interesting, the grid-less movement is a real pain though, The Undead King Gold is the best one, in my opinion, it has everything but grid-base movement, deep character development and enough tactical options.
Naheulbeuk would be way better in 2D and without the retarded teenager humor.
Battle Brothers and KotC 2 are obviously different genres, BB is a sandbox with proc. gen. garbage and while the combat mechanics are good, there's no spells in the base game and way less perks than there is feats in KotC 2, whithout even talking about classes, races, domains, attunement, itemization, crafting.
Alvora Tactics isn't the one you should have mentioned, it's Voidspire which offers a handcrafted adventure, a good one at that with multiple classes and races, also a fair bit of tactical options. then again, it's build on the same engine as Alvora.
And Alvora offers proc. gen. garbage.
Hero Lodge, I want to like it but it's proc. gen. garbage or at least feels like it and exploring dungeons in TB mode is really painful.

All these games but the last one are good but they're not KotC 2, they don't do the same things and when they do, they're way below the level of complexity of KotC 2 in both tactics and character creation and development.

Is it a one time bug in my game or something went wrong in the last update (1.33)?

Probably a 1.33 thing, I never encountered this bug, did you try to reload to see how it works?
Do you have a psionicist?
I always stun him with the psion, so maybe it happens only when you don't...

 

[Yosharian]

Naheulbeuk would be way better in 2D and without the retarded teenager humor.

Completely agree, I really wanted to like that game but the fucking camera holy shit, and the humour stopped being funny after 3 minutes

 

[JarlFrank]

I'm surprised on so many levels.
First, you claim to have given 500€ to the kickstarter campaign and then think 40€ is overpriced.
Secondly, none of the games you mention use a system as complex as KotC 2, home-brew version of 3.5E.
Last and not least, half of them offer only proc. gen. garbage and the ones which don't even come close to the encounter design from KotC 2.

I obviously don't think it's overpriced from my own perspective, else I wouldn't have given Pierre so much money. But I recognize that it's simply not competitively priced. If I had made KotC2 I would have priced it at around 20€ rather than 40€. If you want to sell more than two dozen copies, you gotta price your game lower.

This has nothing to do with the perceived quality of the other games. I even mentioned that Battle Brothers, for example, cannot be directly compared to KotC2 because it has a procedural campaign. But these games all share the same target audience, or at least have a significant audience overlap. KotC2 might be the best game in its subgenre, but it doesn't look like it at first glance - better token art might have helped (more so than the awkward sprites tbh), Age of Fear shows that this perspective can work. Still, people see the screenshots, then the price, then compare it to other games that look similar, and think it's overpriced. The amount of people complaining about price on the Steam forums and other places only prove that the pricing hasn't been well thought-out by Pierre.

All I want is for the game to be successful. But at the current price, it really restricts its own audience.

 

[Yosharian]

Did you stop to consider that maybe Pierre doesn't give a shit about that?

 

[Efe]

the guy can survive eating roots for gods sake, he doesnt need us mortal's inventions.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I obviously don't think it's overpriced from my own perspective, else I wouldn't have given Pierre so much money. But I recognize that it's simply not competitively priced. If I had made KotC2 I would have priced it at around 20€ rather than 40€. If you want to sell more than two dozen copies, you gotta price your game lower.

This has nothing to do with the perceived quality of the other games.

Also, besides TTL, none of these games come with a module editor and TTL is a remaster so it's a different beast.

I've been in sales and marketting for a long time and if I know something, it's KotC 2 is well worth the price.
Now, some people are natural carpet salesmen, they'd sell a fridge to an Inuit, Solasta devs comes to mind with their perfectly crafted kickstarter campaign.
Pierre is obviously not a smooth talker.

Still, in the end, if you want great character development system and battle encounters, KotC 2 is the real deal, nobody else pulled that off, not a single AAA dev did something of that quality and few indies offer such tactical greatness.
So, it doesn't look like it's worth 40 schekels? Who cares?

Tacticool fans will buy it eventually, they have to, it's one of the best tactical games ever made, the others wouldn't like it anyway so it's for the best.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm surprised on so many levels.
First, you claim to have given 500€ to the kickstarter campaign and then think 40€ is overpriced.
Secondly, none of the games you mention use a system as complex as KotC 2, home-brew version of 3.5E.
Last and not least, half of them offer only proc. gen. garbage and the ones which don't even come close to the encounter design from KotC 2.

I obviously don't think it's overpriced from my own perspective, else I wouldn't have given Pierre so much money. But I recognize that it's simply not competitively priced. If I had made KotC2 I would have priced it at around 20€ rather than 40€. If you want to sell more than two dozen copies, you gotta price your game lower.

This has nothing to do with the perceived quality of the other games. I even mentioned that Battle Brothers, for example, cannot be directly compared to KotC2 because it has a procedural campaign. But these games all share the same target audience, or at least have a significant audience overlap. KotC2 might be the best game in its subgenre, but it doesn't look like it at first glance - better token art might have helped (more so than the awkward sprites tbh), Age of Fear shows that this perspective can work. Still, people see the screenshots, then the price, then compare it to other games that look similar, and think it's overpriced. The amount of people complaining about price on the Steam forums and other places only prove that the pricing hasn't been well thought-out by Pierre.

All I want is for the game to be successful. But at the current price, it really restricts its own audience.

You're assuming you know the price curve but what he's selling is likely pretty inelastic around the point he's at. People looking for cheap games want a diversion for the weekend and will uninstall KotC2 after the Golems kill them and downvote it.

Anyone who would enjoy the game (which requires digging into it at which point it becomes a great entertainment value at $50) but is holding out over price is making an economic/political statement rather than thinking about what gives them the most enjoyment/fulfilment.

Pay the man his money and get the word of mouth going rather than joining the autistic ankle-biters.

I mean the AI is just nuts. That Pizzara fight I got fireballed then reloaded and put up mass resists and the AI switched to webs and when I did mass Chaos they were ready with Dispels.

There is no other game like this with this kind of AI. It's like PvP.

 

[Yosharian]

What's the best proficiencies for my TWF Fighter?

I will be using Jorad for most of the game and he has Axes, Two-Handed Swords, One-Handed Swords, Reach.

I was thinking about: Two-Handed Swords, Reach/Bows, Maces, Flails, Hammers...

I was wondering about whether to get Bows as a flexibility weapon for when I need to deal damage at range. Since you can have a bow equipped at any time, while I would need to switch to a reach weapon. I only have 13 DEX, but I figured I would still be able to hit things, and 20 STR would mean good damage. But maybe Reach is better?

The other thing was whether to go for both Hammers and Maces, or whether I only need one of those, and therefore to pick up One-Handed Swords instead.

 

[Serus]

KotC 2 might be "objectively" valuable because of good AI or module maker. Or because, supposedly, it is so much better than other similar games. Or for other reasons. It means little compared to how it is perceived and how those other games are, by potential customers. If somehow in the future, the above qualities will become widely known, then they will be more important for sales (including Pierre's modules). As it is now, what counts is the price and looks, mainly.
I assume that people who care about sales here on the Codex care about modding. Without enough people there won't be any real modding community and very few fan-made modules. If you have several modules done, a few will be good even if most will be shit. If you have none, then you have none.
If you care, then talk about how great the AI, the module maker and what else, is, everywhere there are people who like tactical crpgs or tactical games in general.

 

[Darth Canoli]

What's the best proficiencies for my TWF Fighter?

I will be using Jorad for most of the game and he has Axes, Two-Handed Swords, One-Handed Swords, Reach.

I was thinking about: Two-Handed Swords, Reach/Bows, Maces, Flails, Hammers...

I was wondering about whether to get Bows as a flexibility weapon for when I need to deal damage at range. Since you can have a bow equipped at any time, while I would need to switch to a reach weapon. I only have 13 DEX, but I figured I would still be able to hit things, and 20 STR would mean good damage. But maybe Reach is better?

The other thing was whether to go for both Hammers and Maces, or whether I only need one of those, and therefore to pick up One-Handed Swords instead.

My advice, pick ranged weapons OR close combat weapons and focus on one combat style and adequate attributes and feats.
The only reason to equip a bow for a fighter is for the benefit of an eventual attribute bonus.

There's one really cool mace (undead destruction) quite early and a bunch of hammers but there are 1H swords in every corner, even in round shaped rooms.

Besides, with a fighter, you'll get wade in by level 10 or 11 and it's way better than using a bow, particularly with the right weapon...

I assume that people who care about sales here on the Codex care about modding. Without enough people there won't be any real modding community and very few fan-made modules. If you have several modules done, a few will be good even if most will be shit. If you have none, then you have none.
If you care, then talk about how great the AI, the module maker and what else, is, everywhere there are people who like tactical crpgs or tactical games in general.

There's already one great fan-made module.
If the customer base only counts tacticool fans, it means we'll only get good modules and that's all we need.
Besides, many codexers are working or planning on working on one, most of them will be worth playing, I assume.

Also, There's 3 other official modules so the tacticool fan-base will answer present eventually and Pierre will continue to improve his engine.
He's dedicated and resilient.
As long as there's roots, KotC 2 modules will keep flowing!

 

[Yosharian]

What's the best proficiencies for my TWF Fighter?

I will be using Jorad for most of the game and he has Axes, Two-Handed Swords, One-Handed Swords, Reach.

I was thinking about: Two-Handed Swords, Reach/Bows, Maces, Flails, Hammers...

I was wondering about whether to get Bows as a flexibility weapon for when I need to deal damage at range. Since you can have a bow equipped at any time, while I would need to switch to a reach weapon. I only have 13 DEX, but I figured I would still be able to hit things, and 20 STR would mean good damage. But maybe Reach is better?

The other thing was whether to go for both Hammers and Maces, or whether I only need one of those, and therefore to pick up One-Handed Swords instead.

My advice, pick ranged weapons OR close combat weapons and focus on one combat style and adequate attributes and feats.
The only reason to equip a bow for a fighter is for the benefit of an eventual attribute bonus.

There's one really cool mace (undead destruction) quite early and a bunch of hammers but there are 1H swords in every corner, even in round shaped rooms.

Besides, with a fighter, you'll get wade in by level 10 or 11 and it's way better than using a bow, particularly with the right weapon...

What about Two-Handed Swords, Reach, Maces, Flails, Hammers then?

Am I really going to regret it if I don't take 1H swords? I figured I would want to use 2H Swords because of oversized TWF or whatever its called

Never mind I think I am gonna get Two-Handed Swords, Reach, Maces, Flails, One-Handed Swords

 

[Serus]

Darth Canoli

There's already one great fan-made module.

It wasn't originally a kotc 2 made module. It was ported to kotc 2 engine. It certainly was hard job to do and i'm sure it's a good module but it isn't a good example for kotc 2 community doing modules.

If the customer base only counts tacticool fans, it means we'll only get good modules and that's all we need.

If there is a very small customer base then there will be less tactical games fans in total. It's not like every single potential maker of a decent mod had bought the game already - it is obscure. And not every potential buyer is a mouth breather - only 98%* of them are. You also vastly underestimate the need to have an audience by module-makers. Very few people makes such things and fewer do it strictly for themselves - regardless of what they are telling others. Everyone wants to be recognised from time to time. Even less monocled players can provide that recognition. Do you think that Legends mod would be where it is now if only two dozen people played it? Think again.
*i counted myself, it's science.
As to the Codexer's potential modules, not wanting to sound like an ass but... I think you overestimate the chances by a lot. Dorateen is a great guy but very few other people have such dedication. We don't talk here about poorly made, 5 hours long, nonsense modules. A good module needs months of hard work.

 

[Dorateen]

If I can interject for one moment, I still think the best way to get a mod scene up and going is to do pre-existing pnp conversions in the KotC2 toolset. The only other sample we have right now is from felipepepe and I believe he worked from the map of a 5E D&D module.

 

[Jermu]

Finished it just now (first 50% normal then switched to hard).

Good game few minor bugs and some performance issues at the final area. Final fight nearly wiped because even letting enemy cast 1 nasty spell can kinda kill everyone (prismatic void killed 3 guys from full hp even with buffs).

Was thinking that melee becomes bad later on but fighter and monk were doing still well even in end game. Paladin npc on the other hand was quite bad damage wise.

Does the base game include rest modules or do you need to buy those also? :D

Guess I try the tutorial dungeon next and maybe hearkenwold later

 

[Desiderius]

Two-handed gives +4 bonus to Disarm. Don't laugh, Pierre set up some of the toughest foes with one-handed weapons (-4 vs Disarm) to get owned by that. Ice Demon continually picking up his weapon is pretty funny, and needed.

Greater Disarm is Swift so good on the action econ, and doesn't tie you down like Grapple, though Grapple is great too (on another character).

This time I designed starting companions to get replaced by found ones so line-up is now:

Half-Elf Bard (got there ranged this time with Entangling on the Bow, no save)
Mantis Rogue (infinite attacks activated)
Argossian Bishop (Turning, Magic, Mysticism, Reach)
Pizarra Warlock
Succubus Pal
Sun Monk Grappler
Water Elemental Disarmer
Erzimon Counterspeller

 

[Desiderius]

Finished it just now (first 50% normal then switched to hard).

Good game few minor bugs and some performance issues at the final area. Final fight nearly wiped because even letting enemy cast 1 nasty spell can kinda kill everyone (prismatic void killed 3 guys from full hp even with buffs).

Was thinking that melee becomes bad later on but fighter and monk were doing still well even in end game. Paladin npc on the other hand was quite bad damage wise.

Does the base game include rest modules or do you need to buy those also? :D

Guess I try the tutorial dungeon next and maybe hearkenwold later

Pretty sure Pal/Champ slot does better Grappling/Casting

 

[Pink Eye]

Anyone who would enjoy the game (which requires digging into it at which point it becomes a great entertainment value at $50) but is holding out over price is making an economic/political statement rather than thinking about what gives them the most enjoyment/fulfilment.

Pretty much hit it on the head with this one.

 

[Jermu]

Wtf is this tutorial stairs fight :D Nearly harder than anything in the main campaign. Luckily I bought fireball scroll

 

[Yosharian]

Who am I supposed to give this Black Rose to?

 

[Jermu]

Who am I supposed to give this Black Rose to?

Spoiler

think it was for the shady guy at the inn

 

[Desiderius]

Any advice on what to duplicate with Genie? What item to choose?

 

[Desiderius]

Who am I supposed to give this Black Rose to?

Spoiler

think it was for the shady guy at the inn

It says you don't have enough evidence to convict him then you get the Rose from his chest and no more options. Leave the Rose there and report it to the Bailiff?

If you have Turning or Banishment you can get another Rose at entrance to sewers from the ghost and it tells you to use it to get minions of Yanos to think you're part of their group.

Though that has yet to be an option.

 

[Jermu]

Any advice on what to duplicate with Genie? What item to choose?

You can craft some ridiculous stuff late game when you get for example +20 spell resistance base robe. I used it for crafted 2h weapon so my fighter could get same for other hand. If you have found wade-in item and need another 1 that should be solid option also. I would probably not save it for end game considering good items are more valuable early-middle game since you use those longer.

 

[FA7]

Any advice on what to duplicate with Genie? What item to choose?

Spoiler

King Garamon Mace (+4 STR, +2 CON) - reward from pizzara fight, put both in offhand on your mantis fighter. Enjoy this handsome fella.

 

[Fireblade]

Who am I supposed to give this Black Rose to?

Spoiler

iirc, in Chapter 4 you can give it to Rothgar to convince him you're a member.