KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Desiderius]

As for how to build Bishop I just don't bother with fighting. You've got two action economies with casting and turning and that's enough. If you want to fight and skip the Rogue Trickery can work which lets you cover the Disarmer slot too.

I'm pretty set on Turning Domain. It opens up some unique skill checks, it's pretty much a must for turning not to suck, and it gives you Superior Concentration for free. Start with Improved Turning so you can blow out Elemental fights.

If you take Magic Domain you can just constantly cast then Turn vs Undead, Outsiders, Elementals, Constructs, and Dragons, which are some of the toughest fights anyway.

I'm trying Aberration this time to speed up my summons and give me something to do with turning activations in other fights.

In either case you grab Mysticism at 5 to turn on your offensive casting and double up Bless and Prayer. Reach at 10 in time for Holy Smites which are phat, long, enemies only, and few are immune. And medium/wide Sound Bursts aren't bad either. That combination makes Magic Stone a good finisher for stragglers.

Probably Banishment at 15 but biggest thing about late Domains is turning an 8th level spell you want into a 7th level so Bishop can cast it.

 

[Desiderius]

I leave Silencing to Bard/Rogue or usually have Champ or Pal or something. Or even Mass Mute. Cleric/Bishop wants to be beating saves with Mysticism.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I leave Silencing to Bard/Rogue or usually have Champ or Pal or something. Or even Mass Mute. Cleric/Bishop wants to be beating saves with Mysticism.

A rogue is a killing machine, his silence sucks and requires feats, you can't afford any of this on the highest difficulty and on lower difficulty, everything works, you just proved it, since you're happy with the shittiest builds you came up with.

Bards, sure, they can cast 2/3 abilities a turn so silence is pretty much the bard's role if you bring one.

 

[FA7]

That's why I try to cover as many skill checks as possible. 5hp Fire Elemental Mages nearly wiped me one playthrough with Sleep + stairs and Coups. Ambushes can get lethal.

Spoiler

In general yeah, but that's not the case here, I'm not talking about surprise round. On this particular ambush you use pizarra to get rid of surprise, but it's still nightmare on archmage because of high initiative enemies, terrain hazards, knockout weaponry, aeromancers with gusts, you start on rubble, there are bull rushing monks, not a single safe space etc. etc.

As for disarm idk. You mean some particular foe where this is effective? I think most enemies that you can disarm, you can also trip, and for the really big ones I have grappler. So disarm is pretty meh from my perspective.

 

[Ramnozack]

Okay, I might be asking a strange questions, but how exactly effective Drake Bishop described in manual? Is there a better domain combination? Is Bishop really better than Cleric?
Truth be told, I always feel uncomfortable while building divine casters in any game, because something in me screams " stop complicating things, motherfucker, make this character as healbot, leave actual fighting to fighters and spells for wizards" while my more rational and logical side tells me that healbot would be a waste of a slot in party.
My earliest MMO expirience wasn't WoW or wow clone, so perhaps association cleric = healing comes from a fact that healing spells kinda unique feature for divine spell casters (unless we talking about Artificer, but this is a different story).

I made a reach-weapon cleric whos pretty damn decent, I think.

Mysticism and tactics for all the free feats which makes the build a lot less feat starved.

Focused mostly on getting the usual fighting feats while also picking up improved holy smite and sound burst, put attribute points into wisdom so he stays a good caster. Buy the belt that bumps your BAB up one class, craft a good custom guisarme, and he's good to go. I find that he does everything you would want a cleric to do pretty well. Need healing/true-resing? He's got you covered. Need to nuke a group of enemies with holy smite? Got you covered. Want to help out on the front lines? He's good at that too, has good options for combat maneuvers too. Need buffing? He's got mysticism so he's good at that as well.

I'm pretty happy with him so far

 

[Desiderius]

Grapple is different from Disarm. Greater Disarm is Swift and you’ve still got your full action to burn. Once you’re in a Grapple you’re restricted as to what else you can do.

Snakemen, Effreet, and Ice Demon are all much more vulnerable to Disarm than Grapple (although Efreet can be Grappled too). You want access to both.

You can Ready vs Approach with Disarm up and Disarm up to three approaching attackers with Combat Reflexes. Good for protecting your team or cutting off a choke. Especially with Reach. There are a lot of things resistant to Trip. Pierre lists to advantages of Disarm over Trip in his description of Disarm but biggest thing is you can Trip with spells but can’t Disarm.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Personally I prefer trip over disarm. It largely accomplishes the same purpose while working against more enemies and also preventing movement, casting, etc. If actually disarming something is needed, I'd rather use suppress sword.

 

[Desiderius]

I leave Silencing to Bard/Rogue or usually have Champ or Pal or something. Or even Mass Mute. Cleric/Bishop wants to be beating saves with Mysticism.

A rogue is a killing machine, his silence sucks and requires feats, you can't afford any of this on the highest difficulty and on lower difficulty, everything works, you just proved it, since you're happy with the shittiest builds you came up with.

Bards, sure, they can cast 2/3 abilities a turn so silence is pretty much the bard's role if you bring one.

Rogue Silence requires no feats. You’ve got a round to cast stuff while you’re laying down clouds and surfaces and whatnot before the killing starts.

Bard’s role is to fight/shoot with full BAB and sow Mass Chaos and buff team DCs. Depending on how initiative order falls out it may need to throw a Silence in but that hardly it’s only role.

And get out of here with the trash builds bullshit. This isn’t a one weird trick game - there are a lot of ways to get there and I like having access to multiple angles of attack.

I’m playing Enchanter because I’m old and I’m new but I can tell what would work on higher difficulties and what’s barely good enough and I only post the former.

Be curious what you consider trash so I can own your weak shit with some Archmage screenshots next week.

 

[FA7]

Snakemen, Effreet, and Ice Demon

Ice Demon - gets grappled
Efreet - gets grappled
Snakemen - Not sure which enemy you mean here?

You want access to both.

Lol, no I don't. Disarm is D-tier in my opinion, at least in Augury of Chaos.

 

[Desiderius]

Snakemen, Effreet, and Ice Demon

Ice Demon - gets grappled
Efreet - gets grappled
Snakemen - Not sure which enemy you mean here?

You want access to both.

Lol, no I don't. Disarm is D-tier in my opinion, at least in Augury of Chaos.

Snakemen in Gob fight. Can burn Chaos scroll or own them with Disarm (and not much else due to high saves and STR/Size/AB).

People, I can tell you've never tried it. That's ok, it's a big game, but as I pointed out Pierre himself gives the rundown of the situations where it's good in the Feat description. Not a bad idea to have access to each of the CMs to match the weaknesses of different foes.

I've been skimping on Trip since I just use Grease instead but I'm sure it has it's uses too.

Disarm is +8 (at least, unless you're packing A LOT of STR and Size) vs Grapple against Ice Demon so unless you like reloading long fights its the more reliable option. Again, Disarm is +4 with a two-hander and -4 defense for one-handing, which Ice Demon is.

Suppress Sword does something entirely different. Apples and Oranges. The whole point of CMs is that you don't have to worry about SR or saves.

As with Trip you're burning a Swift to make a tough foe burn at least a Move (precluding a full attack) and in most cases generate AoOs.

Disarm is just an opposed attack roll - no touch attack needed so Mirror Image does nothing nor AC, and no STR check either. Disarmed foes lose Shield AC and benefits of Feats like two-weapon defense as well and can't attack until they rearm, even with their fists.

 

[FA7]

Snakemen in Gob fight

That is one optional enemy that usually dies before he has chance to get in melee range and even if he does then you skewer him in 1 round. Definitely not a reason to waste a feat there.

unless you like reloading long fights its the more reliable option

I'm not even getting into this, you seem to be convinced so I'll let you to it. But let me put it this way +8 won't let you get far on archmage difficulty on any kind of check.

 

[Desiderius]

Lol, you're lucky to have a weapon at all for the gob fight, let alone one with skewer. Good luck crafting with your equipment stuck in the crypt.

The +8 is compared to Grapple due to the two-handed bonus and one-handed malus to Disarm that I've already explained twice, not absolute bonus obviously since you get +8 from the Feats alone. And Pierre fixed the big dudes running into the pits - if you fight Green alone for the big bucks the Snakemen beeline to the front now once they're summoned.

You do well not to get into it with this negative theorycrafting nonsense. Just as I suspected. I thought the same thing about Disarm when I read it - but since Pierre was talking it up I tried it out and was wrong. Still don't understand why vets get their panties in a twist when I do that kind of thing.

Come back when you've got something of value to add rather than empty posturing. Play the game - it's great.

 

[FA7]

Lol, you're lucky to have a weapon at all for the gob fight, let alone one with skewer. Good luck crafting with your equipment stuck in the crypt.

Lmao, you can and ought to get your equipment back before that fight (in order to get most rewards).

The +8 is compared to Grapple due to the two-handed bonus and one-handed malus to Disarm that I've already explained twice, not absolute bonus obviously since you get +8 from the Feats alone. And Pierre fixed the big dudes running into the pits - if you fight Green alone for the big bucks the Snakemen beeline to the front now once they're summoned.

You stated that "+8 bonus you get in that particular case is more reliable than grapple" and "people using grappling need to reload much". In absolute values you aim for +40 when fighting pizarra, so really this 8 really isn't much in comparison as you're getting that much from just iron grip on lvl 9. You're just assuming things, just like you assumed that you need to fight in the arena without gear. You assume that Ice Devil can't be grappled reliably. You assumed that I'm talking absolute values. You're mostly disputing your own assumptions lol. So to clarify I wasn't fighting in arena without gear, and I didn't have problems with reliable grappling Ice Devil.

As I said before:
Snakemen - dies too fast to bother
Ice devil - gets grappled
Efreet - gets grappled even more

Still not a single valid argument for me to take this feat sorry. I didn't feel like I needed it and I'm about to fight imperial dragon on archmage run.

Come back when you've got something of value to add rather than empty posturing.

Further discussion is pretty much pointless, your only argument for feat is muh +8:
1. +8 ain't much
2. disarm has quite limited use
3. over rare enemies that either don't pose much threat or you can dispose on many different and often better ways

Also:

not absolute bonus obviously since you get +8 from the Feats alone

Spoiler

you get 4 not 8

 

[Desiderius]

Lol, you're lucky to have a weapon at all for the gob fight, let alone one with skewer. Good luck crafting with your equipment stuck in the crypt.

Lmao, you can and ought to get your equipment back before that fight (in order to get most rewards).

The +8 is compared to Grapple due to the two-handed bonus and one-handed malus to Disarm that I've already explained twice, not absolute bonus obviously since you get +8 from the Feats alone. And Pierre fixed the big dudes running into the pits - if you fight Green alone for the big bucks the Snakemen beeline to the front now once they're summoned.

You stated that "+8 bonus you get in that particular case is more reliable than grapple" and "people using grappling need to reload much". In absolute values you aim for +40 when fighting pizarra, so really this 8 really isn't much in comparison as you're getting that much from just iron grip on lvl 9. You're just assuming things, just like you assumed that you need to fight in the arena without gear. You assume that Ice Devil can't be grappled reliably. You assumed that I'm talking absolute values. You're mostly disputing your own assumptions lol. So to clarify I wasn't fighting in arena without gear, and I didn't have problems with reliable grappling Ice Devil.

As I said before:
Snakemen - dies too fast to bother
Ice devil - gets grappled
Efreet - gets grappled even more

Still not a single valid argument for me to take this feat sorry. I didn't feel like I needed it and I'm about to fight imperial dragon on archmage run.

Come back when you've got something of value to add rather than empty posturing.

Further discussion is pretty much pointless, your only argument for feat is muh +8:
1. +8 ain't much
2. disarm has quite limited use
3. over rare enemies that either don't pose much threat or you can dispose on many different and often better ways

Also:

not absolute bonus obviously since you get +8 from the Feats alone

Spoiler

you get 4 not 8

Finally some actual arguments.

(1) Thanks for pointing out my oversight in assuming the second CM Feat gives +4. I get so excited by moving to swift it feels like that but none of them get a boost so moot it discussing Grapple vs Disarm.

(2) How does doing Crypt first generate more rewards for Gob fight? Obv you can but Pierre's strongly hinting to go the other way (do the Mimic and Elemental Mages first sure) and seems like doing the rested fight first beats doing the Death Trap. Are you getting Wade In in time for gob fight as well? O/W pretending you're easily offing Snakemen Champs without putting yourself at (needless) risk makes no sense.

(3) Don't insult our intelligence by saying +8 doesn't matter. It also doesn't effectively Disarm yourself (as with Grapple), doesn't burn your full Action, and doesn't turn off your AoOs and DEX AC. I'm using Grapple too, but on another 2 characters, and you can follow up one with the other as well.

(4) 98% chance (that doesn't leave you as vulnerable) absolutely means fewer reloads than 70-90% with an extra Touch needed. If you've got 98% on your Grapple vs Ice Demon great (with True Strike for instance that's another thing you can do - as I said a lot of ways to beat the game). I'm using all the resources you're put into getting it that high into greater flexibility by taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities rather than brute forcing. Limited means nothing if it's limited to the hardest challenges and doesn't preclude you from having Grapple available on other characters.

(5) You can say better until you're blue in the face but until you've laid out the specific case you're just echoing what seems to be the prejudices of the MMO-generation without coming to terms with the way games like this are designed to be attacked, which is more of a rock-paper-scissors. Don't take it from me - read Pierre's Disarm description.

(6) I guarantee you’d appreciate it if he gave it to more enemies. Skewer Weapon doesn’t do much if it isn’t equipped.

 

[FA7]

1. Yeah you make it bit hard to point out but yw.
2. This is for you to discover.
3. I'll try not to stumble here. +8 ain't much for MEDIOCRE EFFECT used against MELEE ENEMIES holding 1-HANDED ARMS that have TRIP IMMUNITY.
4. Not going into details here, but again wouldn't say 3 attempts on 70-90% to disable enemy completely is less reliable than 98% for stripping move action from enemy
5. Get a grip, if there's any echoing you keep hearing it means you have too much space between your ears.
6. That'd be good point for taking the feat in some other module.

 

[Pink Eye]

i dont think ive ever played around disarm mechanic. enchantment specialist or warlock that uses that one psionic ability to increase DC coupled with Bard's song that gives another +1 to DC. usually does a good job of keeping dangerous enemies away from party. for annoying spellcasters i just grapple or trip with either grease or monk.

 

[Desiderius]

Disarm is nice because it's so low cost and easy to apply. I like to have it for a few specific instances but once you do you can just fire it off whenever and really reduces the lethality of some potentially dicey situations.

I use Arcane Rhyme more than the other songs (especially once it hits +2) but tend to be more aggressive about establishing a salient rather than hanging back. Then use that salient for good spell/attack positioning.

 

[Desiderius]

1. Yeah you make it bit hard to point out but yw.
2. This is for you to discover.
3. I'll try not to stumble here. +8 ain't much for MEDIOCRE EFFECT used against MELEE ENEMIES holding 1-HANDED ARMS that have TRIP IMMUNITY.
4. Not going into details here, but again wouldn't say 3 attempts on 70-90% to disable enemy completely is less reliable than 98% for stripping move action from enemy
5. Get a grip, if there's any echoing you keep hearing it means you have too much space between your ears.
6. That'd be good point for taking the feat in some other module.

Whatever, man. Just try it - you'll see. Being wrong about things then improving is the fun of games like this.

Thanks for the tip on doing crypt first. Tried it tonight and I think it definitely flows better. Gob fight always felt like a little much at that point.

 

[oscar]

This game is really, really fucking good. Just a little past the sewer goblin war. The simple graphics allow a huge variety of enemies who all tend to require a different strategy to beat. Encounter design is top notch. Some fights are attritional others short and brutal.

It's a crime against humanity that the graphics will mean this game will stay niche even among RPG fans. I agree that the tokens are much more functional and clear (some of the hand-drawn token art is even fairly decent and evocative, no idea why the god-awful ancient 3D renders are the default icon pics).

 

[Darth Canoli]

This game is really, really fucking good. Just a little past the sewer goblin war. The simple graphics allow a huge variety of enemies who all tend to require a different strategy to beat. Encounter design is top notch. Some fights are attritional others short and brutal.

It's a crime against humanity that the graphics will mean this game will stay niche even among RPG fans. I agree that the tokens are much more functional and clear (some of the hand-drawn token art is even fairly decent and evocative, no idea why the god-awful ancient 3D renders are the default icon pics).

There is few games which are this replayable.
I didn't play a game over and over like this one since the original UFO: Enemy Unknown.

The first two chapters are amazing and chapter 3 is also really good outside of a few encounters like the slimes and the air elementals.

Anyone who like tactical combat and played it on lower difficulties should work their way up when they feel like replaying it and try Archmage at some point, it's just amazing.

And about the tokens, Satan's pack will replace all the tokens made from ugly 3D models.

 

[Serus]

Let's talk about some choices in game. What rewards do you take when presented with choice?
For example I took the robe instead of 80k in act 2. Robe is really good but i later had second thoughts about the 80k. That's a nice sum of money and can buy something really nice.
Act 1, i took the armour, which is nice but maybe a star diamond is better?
If someone thinks there a spoilers in the answers, then, put in spoilers, duh.

 

[Serus]

1. Yeah you make it bit hard to point out but yw.
2. This is for you to discover.
3. I'll try not to stumble here. +8 ain't much for MEDIOCRE EFFECT used against MELEE ENEMIES holding 1-HANDED ARMS that have TRIP IMMUNITY.
4. Not going into details here, but again wouldn't say 3 attempts on 70-90% to disable enemy completely is less reliable than 98% for stripping move action from enemy
5. Get a grip, if there's any echoing you keep hearing it means you have too much space between your ears.
6. That'd be good point for taking the feat in some other module.

Whatever, man. Just try it - you'll see. Being wrong about things then improving is the fun of games like this.

Thanks for the tip on doing crypt first. Tried it tonight and I think it definitely flows better. Gob fight always felt like a little much at that point.

I could have given this tip for free but you probably would't listen to me.
Bonus points for doing everything with and for greys and then betraying them.

 

[Desiderius]

1. Yeah you make it bit hard to point out but yw.
2. This is for you to discover.
3. I'll try not to stumble here. +8 ain't much for MEDIOCRE EFFECT used against MELEE ENEMIES holding 1-HANDED ARMS that have TRIP IMMUNITY.
4. Not going into details here, but again wouldn't say 3 attempts on 70-90% to disable enemy completely is less reliable than 98% for stripping move action from enemy
5. Get a grip, if there's any echoing you keep hearing it means you have too much space between your ears.
6. That'd be good point for taking the feat in some other module.

Whatever, man. Just try it - you'll see. Being wrong about things then improving is the fun of games like this.

Thanks for the tip on doing crypt first. Tried it tonight and I think it definitely flows better. Gob fight always felt like a little much at that point.

I could have given this tip for free but you probably would't listen to me.
Bonus points for doing everything with and for greys and then betraying them.

Of course I would listen to you. Disagreement (as opposed to knee jerk defensiveness) presupposes listening then I test things and sometimes turn out to be wrong and revise my views.

I’m not big on all-out murder-hoboing so we’ll see. First time thru I fought Greys first and Greens have some nice stuff for sale but seems like that locks you out of Grey area altogether?

Is getting Pizarra before the Pal (and leaving Crones alive) the way you guys do it?

 

[Darth Canoli]

Let's talk about some choices in game. What rewards do you take when presented with choice?
For example I took the robe instead of 80k in act 2. Robe is really good but i later had second thoughts about the 80k. That's a nice sum of money and can buy something really nice.
Act 1, i took the armour, which is nice but maybe a star diamond is better?
If someone thinks there a spoilers in the answers, then, put in spoilers, duh.

If you want to craft, 80K are nice, if you have a lot of casters, then the robe is just great.
I never took the armor but now there's a speed "bonus", it could be interesting, I usually pick the trident or the star, depending of what i need the most.
If you want to attune 2 mages (or 1 + Erz), there's not a lot of star diamonds, I didn't count but maybe 3/4 ?

I’m not big on all-out murder-hoboing so we’ll see. First time thru I fought Greys first and Greens have some nice stuff for sale but seems like that locks you out of Grey area altogether?

Is getting Pizarra before the Pal (and leaving Crones alive) the way you guys do it?

I always do the crypt first, rats give you 2 resting spots so you can rest before cleaning the area and then before going through the crypt and afterwards, greys offer unilimited resting, not that you need it.
As for the merchandise, I suppose it depends what you can buy, afford and can't find anywhere else compared to what the greens have to offer.
Mostly, if you craft early, you can't buy much.

Yes, I usually save the crones for later because of their shop, you get way more money if you clear most of the upper sewers first.
On the other hand, if you wait too much (and level up), you lose a lot of xp.

Last but not least, Asharazelle is not worth the gems required to get her, earth gems are scarce, fire gems shouldn't be used either (skewer and other cool enchantments) and star gems are extremely valuable as well.
And you can't spend all your air gems if you want to enchant a weapon from scratch (necessary for +1 before other enchantments)

 

[Serus]

Let's talk about some choices in game. What rewards do you take when presented with choice?
For example I took the robe instead of 80k in act 2. Robe is really good but i later had second thoughts about the 80k. That's a nice sum of money and can buy something really nice.
Act 1, i took the armour, which is nice but maybe a star diamond is better?
If someone thinks there a spoilers in the answers, then, put in spoilers, duh.

If you want to craft, 80K are nice, if you have a lot of casters, then the robe is just great.
I never took the armor but now there's a speed "bonus", it could be interesting, I usually pick the trident or the star, depending of what i need the most.
If you want to attune 2 mages (or 1 + Erz), there's not a lot of star diamonds, I didn't count but maybe 3/4 ?

You mean that it's a heavy armour that only gives 5 speed penalty instead of 10? It didn't in earlier versions then?

The trident would be very nice - except spears is the last type of weapon i'd take normally. Unless I have a gladiator, that would mean using 1 additional feat or planning it from the start. A fighter could have taken it, I suppose. It is also a nice weapon for storm warrior if you want to make use of his class feats (not that they are that great) but the water elemental npc doesn't have it either and doesn't have many feats to spare.

Thanks for your opinion anyway. I only have 1 wizard so i might take 80k this game.