KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Desiderius]

only first half. second is too much pew-pew and initiative rng fest. you are forced to play caster heavy parties which i don't really like that much.

I don't think you're forced into anything, it's just easier and you wouldn't dare to try it.
What's an heavy caster party?
More than half?

I believe a 2 caster party is suitable out of 8, would it qualify as a non caster heavy party?
It looks like an interesting challenge.

Something like this:

• Paladin
• Fighter
• Rogue
• Samurai
• Barbarian
• Psychic Warrior (companion)
  
• Cleric/Bishop/Druid or even psychic healer
• Pizarra (Warlock)

It's a 2/8 caster party with some hybrids, paladin for the aura and a secondary healer, if you can't pew pew, you'll need healers.
I'm not sure the Paladin features are all working; like the protective aura; but as soon as I know it is, I'll jump in.

So, what do you say Reinhardt ?

Currently:

Pal
Sorc
Warlock
Storm Warrior
Ranger
Rogue
Bard
Bishop

Top four from companions

Obv been done with 6 Kobold Wizards so pure casters are something that can work, but every class gets abilities that scale to the mid/endgame and that's when the items kick in too.

 

[Desiderius]

Of curse it will work. Any game played non-ironman can be beaten assuming you play well enough to create the opportunity. It is only a matter of number of reloads. With 100% melee it would be beyond realistic or even mathematical possibility but with two casters and competent play - i am sure it's a matter of patience.

No I'm designing specifically to minimize reloads. The reason I want a diversified party is to avoid surprise and attack enemy weaknesses to up the odds of success.

 

[Jasede]

You know, maybe I'll replay it. Having beaten 1.00 I'm curious to see what changed by now. They added a town? Just found my old download credentials.

 

[Reinhardt]

i wonder how desiderius see threads he's posting in...

 

[Dickie]

They added a town?

Yeah, it turns out the part of the game in 1.0 was just the usual quest to clear sewer rats.

 

[Serus]

Jasede the town is actually much bigger than Act 1 and has a few nice, low level encounters. The fights near the end of sword quest and the ones at last stages of the defence are nice. Others are mostly simple but some are ok too. Overall better than Act 1 in my opinion.

i wonder how desiderius see threads he's posting in...

From desiderius perspective would be my guess.

 

[Reinhardt]

From desiderius perspective would be my guess.

so... empty?

 

[Desiderius]

Nah I’ve got most people off ignore now.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Of curse it will work. Any game played non-ironman can be beaten assuming you play well enough to create the opportunity. It is only a matter of number of reloads. With 100% melee it would be beyond realistic or even mathematical possibility but with two casters and competent play - i am sure it's a matter of patience.

Well thats the issue. Yeah it feasible, just reload until your 2 casters get better initiatives and press the I win button is not really good.

In the end the encounter of KotC2 is fun, but start from middle of the game it largely become whose caster get better initiatives , the issue Reinhardt posted. Having lower amount of caster just basically move the probability of you rolling the I win button to be lower but doesn't really change the fundamental issue when replaying the game as you have to do the win initiatives -> press win button spells.

 

[Jvegi]

In the end the encounter of KotC2 is fun, but start from middle of the game it largely become whose caster get better initiatives , the issue Reinhardt posted. Having lower amount of caster just basically move the probability of you rolling the I win button to be lower but doesn't really change the fundam

That is why rtwp >tb at higher levels, as proven by iwd 2.

 

[Serus]

Of curse it will work. Any game played non-ironman can be beaten assuming you play well enough to create the opportunity. It is only a matter of number of reloads. With 100% melee it would be beyond realistic or even mathematical possibility but with two casters and competent play - i am sure it's a matter of patience.

Well thats the issue. Yeah it feasible, just reload until your 2 casters get better initiatives and press the I win button is not really good.

In the end the encounter of KotC2 is fun, but start from middle of the game it largely become whose caster get better initiatives , the issue Reinhardt posted. Having lower amount of caster just basically move the probability of you rolling the I win button to be lower but doesn't really change the fundamental issue when replaying the game as you have to do the win initiatives -> press win button spells.

This is a problem with high level dnd in general. Pierre is making it "worse" by designing a challenging game with competent AI. Easy game, dumb AI that can't select a good spells even if its life depended on it = problem solved.

Just don't do any DnD above level 12, 14 at most. That would alleviate the problem and high level dnd is silly anyway for more reasons than OP spells.

In the end the encounter of KotC2 is fun, but start from middle of the game it largely become whose caster get better initiatives , the issue Reinhardt posted. Having lower amount of caster just basically move the probability of you rolling the I win button to be lower but doesn't really change the fundam

That is why rtwp >tb at higher levels, as proven by iwd 2.

That is why tb early to mid levels dnd > all other dnd.
And not just because of OP spells. Also see above. The fact ID2 is rtwp and supposedly(!) has good high level combat doesn't mean that there is more than a correlation. Throne of Baal was high level and RTwP and bad.

 

[Desiderius]

Of curse it will work. Any game played non-ironman can be beaten assuming you play well enough to create the opportunity. It is only a matter of number of reloads. With 100% melee it would be beyond realistic or even mathematical possibility but with two casters and competent play - i am sure it's a matter of patience.

Well thats the issue. Yeah it feasible, just reload until your 2 casters get better initiatives and press the I win button is not really good.

In the end the encounter of KotC2 is fun, but start from middle of the game it largely become whose caster get better initiatives , the issue Reinhardt posted. Having lower amount of caster just basically move the probability of you rolling the I win button to be lower but doesn't really change the fundamental issue when replaying the game as you have to do the win initiatives -> press win button spells.

You're making so many unexamined assumptions. Why do you leave all your non-casters without options to disrupt the enemy? You win initiative with your fourth caster, I win with my Ranger and Ready vs Spell on the enemy dude who got lucky. And my diverse party gets surprise/wins surprise far more often because I've covered skill checks you haven't. For emergencies give your Rogue tons of initiative and make sure she has some items/scrolls to fire off.

The whole reason I'm playing a diverse party is to reduce the variability you take for granted (and to increase my staying power with abilities that don't require rest). You've got it completely backwards.

 

[Reinhardt]

Ready vs Spell on the enemy dude who got lucky.

we are not talking about lone enemy caster here... disabling one wizzord won't save your ass.

 

[Desiderius]

Ready vs Spell on the enemy dude who got lucky.

we are not talking about lone enemy caster here... disabling one wizzord won't save your ass.

Lol, then fire off an acorn. Rangers do in fact get some spells too if that's what it takes.

But no he's talking about exactly that scenario if he's talking about having to reload unless my caster gets initiative. My non-(full)-caster(s) disrupts/kills whoever wins over my casters if it's a fight that requires that.

OMG endgame !!111!!!1!!!

Yeah, that's why I'm only running one full martial at most. By then pretty much everyone but full martial has options for mass disruption.

 

[Serus]

Ready vs Spell on the enemy dude who got lucky.

we are not talking about lone enemy caster here... disabling one wizzord won't save your ass.

Lol, then fire off an acorn. Rangers do in fact get some spells too if that's what it takes.

But no he's talking about exactly that scenario if he's talking about having to reload unless my caster gets initiative. My non-(full)-caster(s) disrupts/kills whoever wins over my casters if it's a fight that requires that.

OMG endgame !!111!!!1!!!

Yeah, that's why I'm only running one full martial at most. By then pretty much everyone but full martial has options for mass disruption.

There are like 6 different classes of pure martial (no spells, no bard): gladiator, fighter, barbarian, dark knight, samurai, monk, perhaps I forgot something) . If you can't take 3 or 4 in a party of 8 and instead must take casters, full ones or hybrids, then we already have some problem.

In addition if any enemy caster - out of several - rolls very high and go before all your guys, then what?

High level DnD is broken, even without some of the most broken pnp spells, no matter how you twist it.

 

[Jermu]

What equipment for bard for archmage difficulty? It might be hard to make melee viable since you need to max charisma and pump con/int/dex for initiative so bow maybe? But since there seems to be quite many useful bard feats you probably dont have enough spare feats to get most of those.
so just shield + attribute stick?

 

[Pink Eye]

Game actually keeps crashing when ever it is my casters turn tested multiple fights Also cannot downgrade to last patch. Happens to other people also.

I keep crashing at the Draggor fight. Also I have another problem where my spells aren't being selected properly. See:

^trying to summon elemental but game thinks I want flame strike. it fixes itself when I exit out caster window then reopen it, but man, that's annoying.

 

[Desiderius]

Ready vs Spell on the enemy dude who got lucky.

we are not talking about lone enemy caster here... disabling one wizzord won't save your ass.

Lol, then fire off an acorn. Rangers do in fact get some spells too if that's what it takes.

But no he's talking about exactly that scenario if he's talking about having to reload unless my caster gets initiative. My non-(full)-caster(s) disrupts/kills whoever wins over my casters if it's a fight that requires that.

OMG endgame !!111!!!1!!!

Yeah, that's why I'm only running one full martial at most. By then pretty much everyone but full martial has options for mass disruption.

There are like 6 different classes of pure martial (no spells, no bard): gladiator, fighter, barbarian, dark knight, samurai, monk, perhaps I forgot something) . If you can't take 3 or 4 in a party of 8 and instead must take casters, full ones or hybrids, then we already have some problem.

In addition if any enemy caster - out of several - rolls very high and go before all your guys, then what?

High level DnD is broken, even without some of the most broken pnp spells, no matter how you twist it.

Idk man, just because I'm leaning toward hybrids doesn't mean that pure martials can't get there too. I've still got a LOT to learn. Maybe the all-caster people are even right.

The Fighter in the tutorial carried me almost single-handedly in several fights. I'm intrigued by the three Shake it Off feats on Fighter. Seems like you could get to the point where enemy casters going first wouldn't even matter to Fighter. Likewise Monk with the SR and high base saves.

Hard to say yet.

 

[Desiderius]

What equipment for bard for archmage difficulty? It might be hard to make melee viable since you need to max charisma and pump con/int/dex for initiative so bow maybe? But since there seems to be quite many useful bard feats you probably dont have enough spare feats to get most of those.
so just shield + attribute stick?

I'm having decent luck with debuffing Bow. Human + bonus Feats is enough to get what you need as long as you're fine with starting with 18 CHR instead of 20. Been dumping INT to get there.

I've got him on the Heal Scimitar.

 

[felipepepe]

You know, maybe I'll replay it. Having beaten 1.00 I'm curious to see what changed by now. They added a town? Just found my old download credentials.

The town is really interesting, as it feels like a more traditional RPG rather than a massive dungeon crawl. Writing is dry but functional like always, but has fun interactions and quests.

Looking at the descriptions Pierre wrote of future KOTC2 modules, would really like if he kept the same quality as the town but using the open-world-ish structure of KOTC1.

 

[Serus]

Ready vs Spell on the enemy dude who got lucky.

we are not talking about lone enemy caster here... disabling one wizzord won't save your ass.

Lol, then fire off an acorn. Rangers do in fact get some spells too if that's what it takes.

But no he's talking about exactly that scenario if he's talking about having to reload unless my caster gets initiative. My non-(full)-caster(s) disrupts/kills whoever wins over my casters if it's a fight that requires that.

OMG endgame !!111!!!1!!!

Yeah, that's why I'm only running one full martial at most. By then pretty much everyone but full martial has options for mass disruption.

There are like 6 different classes of pure martial (no spells, no bard): gladiator, fighter, barbarian, dark knight, samurai, monk, perhaps I forgot something) . If you can't take 3 or 4 in a party of 8 and instead must take casters, full ones or hybrids, then we already have some problem.

In addition if any enemy caster - out of several - rolls very high and go before all your guys, then what?

High level DnD is broken, even without some of the most broken pnp spells, no matter how you twist it.

Idk man, just because I'm leaning toward hybrids doesn't mean that pure martials can't get there too. I've still got a LOT to learn. Maybe the all-caster people are even right.

The Fighter in the tutorial carried me almost single-handedly in several fights. I'm intrigued by the three Shake it Off feats on Fighter. Seems like you could get to the point where enemy casters going first wouldn't even matter to Fighter. Likewise Monk with the SR and high base saves.

Hard to say yet.

Some of your favourite theory crafting:
The issue with Shake It Off is that it still requires a dice roll IIRC. This means two things: You need semi-decent saving throws for it to work, fighter is not strong at this; If you are struck with a high DC spell, it is still highly random and can take more than one turn to win the roll and remove the effect. I doubt it will work well enough. I took a level early with some annoying effects included but I hardly saw any practical gain.
I'd say Monk has better chance to become magic-resistant. Make him a Halfling for the +2 saves and take all the feats (=4) for another +3 to all, for a total of +5 on top of monk's saves. He will be half-useless but very resistant :D. As to high SR, already in chapter 2 there is a cloak +28 SR iirc. Costly as f*** but is an option.
End of theory.

 

[AdolfSatan]

sup, faggets

 

[Desiderius]

Some of your favourite theory crafting:
The issue with Shake It Off is that it still requires a dice roll IIRC. This means two things: You need semi-decent saving throws for it to work, fighter is not strong at this; If you are struck with a high DC spell, it is still highly random and can take more than one turn to win the roll and remove the effect. I doubt it will work well enough. I took a level early with some annoying effects included but I hardly saw any practical gain.
I'd say Monk has better chance to become magic-resistant. Make him a Halfling for the +2 saves and take all the feats (=4) for another +3 to all, for a total of +5 on top of monk's saves. He will be half-useless but very resistant :D. As to high SR, already in chapter 2 there is a cloak +28 SR iirc. Costly as f*** but is an option.
End of theory.

That's interesting. So Fighter has the payoff but needs the engine (high saves via Halfling, +5 Cloak, etc) while Monk has the engine but needs the payoff. I'll take a look at that when I'm done with this party.

Monk already gets SR at lvl +5 that turns on at lvl 12 I think. How does SR stack?

Positive theorycrafting is essential to set up good tests. Negative theorycrafting is useless except in very broad terms. I think it's safe to say half-Sal Warlock isn't a thing.

 

[Reinhardt]

sup, faggets

glad to see my bb pic inspired you

 

[AdolfSatan]

I've actually been iterating with item sets from different games for a while, though your image certainly confirmed that I was on the right path. I think I'm settling down with the Diablo 2 look, probably pixelize it a bit.
What I've no idea where I'll head next with yet, are the action icons (use/split/forge/etc.).

In any case, I'm stuck in the theme development until I get an answer for some questions I sent Pierre. There's some stuff like those black outline fonts whose source I haven't been able to find. If anyone knows, do tell me.