KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Reinhardt]

diablo looks like good source of jewelry pics - that's one field bb lacking. good enough for my melee low magic campaign but for something more traditional it would be a problem.

 

[Torus]

Of curse it will work. Any game played non-ironman can be beaten assuming you play well enough to create the opportunity. It is only a matter of number of reloads. With 100% melee it would be beyond realistic or even mathematical possibility but with two casters and competent play - i am sure it's a matter of patience.

Well thats the issue. Yeah it feasible, just reload until your 2 casters get better initiatives and press the I win button is not really good.

In the end the encounter of KotC2 is fun, but start from middle of the game it largely become whose caster get better initiatives , the issue Reinhardt posted. Having lower amount of caster just basically move the probability of you rolling the I win button to be lower but doesn't really change the fundamental issue when replaying the game as you have to do the win initiatives -> press win button spells.

At least limited initiative boosting gear means it doesn't hurt the probability as much to have fewer casters since the geared ones are most important.

 

[Butter]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1233530/view/3213891324198113202

Knights of the Chalice Version 1.35
Hi everyone! Here's a small update mainly intended to fix a couple of issues introduced in version 1.34.

• Fixed a source of crashes during combat when mousing over creatures not taking part in combat.
  
• Fixed issues associated with sorting in the spell lists, module-selection boxes, file-selection boxes, etc.
  
• Fixed a bug with Thogar in Chapter 1 when you fight him as part of the main fight with Pizarra.
  
• Tweaked the AI settings of Thogar and the AI settings of the other fighters in the same location.

Thank You For Your Support, Loyal Knights! Best regards

 

[Darth Canoli]

after all your replays and knowing correct order of fights and locations of key equips you are not even sure it will work.
i'm not saying it's wrong - men in dresses need some campaigns to play too, it's just augury is not module i see myself replaying often just to try different dress.

Of curse it will work. Any game played non-ironman can be beaten assuming you play well enough to create the opportunity. It is only a matter of number of reloads. With 100% melee it would be beyond realistic or even mathematical possibility but with two casters and competent play - i am sure it's a matter of patience.

But I am, I was just asking if you agreed on my definition of non heavy caster party.
Also, you're both wrong from my perspective, beyond the first playthrough, which induced a lot of reloads during the sharkman's druid fight, then the spider queen and a few others requiring way less reloads but reloads nonetheless (salamander, gobs, Pizarra) I don't reload much, that's why I tried and arguably suceeded an Iron man run.

Arguably because if I didn't lose, I didn't win either due to a crash after the castle's first dragon fight.

Some fights could still fuck you over, I guess, Salamander comes to mind or spiders from the cave if you take it on too early.
Sword snare can be tough but soon enough, you'll know how to get through it without reloads.

Spoiler

Just give the skewer sword to your higher THC fighter and put him in front so he can reach the crones fast, first turn even, psionic STR dialog buff also helps. Then, focus on the crones and disable the harpy.

I didn't lose to the Spider Queen in ages.

Spoiler

You just have to prepare while fighting the first spider wave and you can even preemptively build walls with the friendly spiders to protect your casters.

So, there's only 3 fights which can fuck you over.
Salamander (forge), First inner walls fight in the castle and chapter's 3 Pizarra but mostly the Salamander because you can win the other two even when you lose the initiative rolls.

With less casters, you'll require one or two fighters with good reach weapons and rely even more on fighting maneuvers.

Currently:

Pal
Sorc
Warlock
Storm Warrior
Ranger
Rogue
Bard
Bishop

Top four from companions

Obv been done with 6 Kobold Wizards so pure casters are something that can work, but every class gets abilities that scale to the mid/endgame and that's when the items kick in too.

Depending on your build, the bard, even if it's an hybrid, might be a dedicated caster so it's a 3.5 / 4 caster party Sorc, Warlock, bishop and the bard), the only time I used a bard, he used a reach weapon but barely fought, mostly silencing, buffing and later using aria of chaos.

You know, maybe I'll replay it. Having beaten 1.00 I'm curious to see what changed by now. They added a town? Just found my old download credentials.

Spoiler

The new village is really good, there's a lot of content and even a bonus for a Black Wizard (but don't take a black wizard),

Spoiler

there's even a quest or two you'll complete after leaving the high sewers and return to the village.

Well thats the issue. Yeah it feasible, just reload until your 2 casters get better initiatives and press the I win button is not really good.

In the end the encounter of KotC2 is fun, but start from middle of the game it largely become whose caster get better initiatives , the issue Reinhardt posted. Having lower amount of caster just basically move the probability of you rolling the I win button to be lower but doesn't really change the fundamental issue when replaying the game as you have to do the win initiatives -> press win button spells.

No you don't!
It's harder when you don't win the initiative, I give you that but never impossible.
Of course, if you take initiative feats and use initiative equipment, you rarely lose initiative and when you do during tough fights (like ch3 Pizarra) you'll just have to use raise dead scrolls and step up your game.

What equipment for bard for archmage difficulty? It might be hard to make melee viable since you need to max charisma and pump con/int/dex for initiative so bow maybe? But since there seems to be quite many useful bard feats you probably dont have enough spare feats to get most of those.
so just shield + attribute stick?

Melee bard works as long as your bard isn't your front-line fighter, use him to protect your mages and give him a reach weapon.
Bow might work as well and there's some slaying arrows here and there so this + true seeing could work.
Still, a bard requires a lot of feats so I don't think you can spare any for martial feats.

^trying to summon elemental but game thinks I want flame strike. it fixes itself when I exit out caster window then reopen it, but man, that's annoying.

Are you using the 1.34?
I didn't upgrade yet and I won't until 1.35 so I guess I'm off the hook?

 

[Serus]

I assume you did you almost-finished-successfully IM run on full Archmage and using Ironman setting? The latter gives you 10% bonus to exp but that's not even near the increase difficulty of playing with only one credit. It's impressive, hats off.

Doesn't change my mind that high level dnd is in not worth it compared to low and mid level one though.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Doesn't change my mind that high level dnd is in not worth it compared to low and mid level one though.

We can agree on this.
I'm not going to lie, it's fun to use prismatic spells on the enemies, even more when you store xp and overleveled the Spider Queen and chapter 4 but level 3-12 is what works the best for me as well, not sure about the upper limit but 15 is already too high.

So, if you prefer lower level d&d, Hearkenwold is what you need, Dorateen even reduced combat xp to slow down leveling progression.

 

[Serus]

Doesn't change my mind that high level dnd is in not worth it compared to low and mid level one though.

We can agree on this.
I'm not going to lie, it's fun to use prismatic spells on the enemies, even more when you store xp and overleveled the Spider Queen and chapter 4 but level 3-12 is what works the best for me as well, not sure about the upper limit but 15 is already too high.

So, if you prefer lower level d&d, Hearkenwold is what you need, Dorateen even reduced combat xp to slow down leveling progression.

I think it's 12 or 14 due to magic - not the only reason but the most important one. Pure casters at level 15 have access to spells level 8 and that's where the really broken stuff that make non-casters semi useless begins. One may say it's already at spells 7 which leaves us with levels 12 or 14 as the upper level limit.
So basically i agree with you. I don't why i bothered to write this.
About low levels, level 1 and 2 are not that great either. Not many options and very random due to low hp. A single critical can kill (as in dead) a character at level 1 even from full life. Only level 1 spells, very few feats. From level 3 it all gets much better.

 

[Desiderius]

For Sword Quest Crones:

Spoiler

give Skewer Sword to Water Elemental - he moves twice as fast in Water and gets five-foot steps. I'm pretty sure I lost some EXP there due to killing Crones too fast before they could summon more Slimes tho.

Web the area where the Slimes spawn they aren't immune to Hampering (Water Elemental is!) and have lousy Reflex. Still don't have perfect plan for Harpy since she flies but she can be silenced unlike Crones.

 

[Desiderius]

Still, a bard requires a lot of feats so I don't think you can spare any for martial feats.

Bard gets a lot of Bonus Feats and full BAB so can't afford not to do some fighting. And don't need Improved Song Feats for Songs that don't get much use. Reach could work but like to have home for a Heavy Shield. Really just need Point-Blank and Far Shot for most effective archery. Can melee close stuff, even if only setting up flanking early. Human + dumping INT can get Stats/Feats where they need to be to pew pew + Chaos. By Pizarra was using the Heal/encounter Scimitar and exclusively casting/shooting.

It's harder when you don't win the initiative, I give you that but never impossible.
Of course, if you take initiative feats and use initiative equipment, you rarely lose initiative and when you do during tough fights (like ch3 Pizarra) you'll just have to use raise dead scrolls and step up your game.

THIS

Really learned the value of mid-combat rez/heal in that fight. It's not over until it's over. That fight can turn ten times.

 

[Darth Canoli]

For Sword Quest Crones:

Spoiler

give Skewer Sword to Water Elemental - he moves twice as fast in Water and gets five-foot steps. I'm pretty sure I lost some EXP there due to killing Crones too fast before they could summon more Slimes tho.

Web the area where the Slimes spawn they aren't immune to Hampering (Water Elemental is!) and have lousy Reflex. Still don't have perfect plan for Harpy since she flies but she can be silenced unlike Crones.

Interesting but I prefer Jorad, with rage, he has very high chances to trigger skewer and last time i picked him, he could reach the eastern crone on his first turn (just put him on the top left spot in the formation panel).
Also, rage bonus stacks with everything...

Spoiler

The harpy can be dealt with with sleep/hypnotic pattern, I think chances are between 50 and 60+%, which is alright.

THIS

Really learned the value of mid-combat rez/heal in that fight. It's not over until it's over. That fight can turn ten times.

There's also a lot of debuffs which are "cured by death" so getting a helpless character killed can even be useful if you're not losing xp.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Ok, new party, Archmage but no gold/level up and feats every other level.

I'm going with:
Cleric/Bishop Moon elf (M) Wis 20, low str/int/dex, high CON and CHA (Flux domain +? if Cleric, + life, curing, magic, mysticism and ? if Bishop), the heal-bot.
Paladin Human Argossian M, Max STR, CHA, the dragon's bane.
Fighter
Barbarian, skewerman.
Gladiator
Psychic Warrior, the grappler (eats Spider Queens for breakfast)
Storm Warrior (companion), the (quick)sandman.
Pizarra (Warlock), the nuke-bot.

I just need to figure some things out for chapter 4, maybe the cleric is better so i get earthquake...

 

[Serus]

There's also a lot of debuffs which are "cured by death" so getting a helpless character killed can even be useful if you're not losing xp.

Winning by dying. Nice.

 

[Desiderius]

Argossian is made for Bishop. You want the CHR (and the Feats since no bonus). Turning activations are half your action economy whether you use them for turning or Domain abilities.

Elf is stuck with INT you don’t need. I’ve only found Elf good to get Search to 22 on Wiz/Warlock.

I think the gold for leveling is a trick to keep you underleveled so you earn more EXP. Looking forward to trying it with heavier consumable use.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I know but the pally doesn't want the extra INT, nobody in the party does and I want an elf anyway.

Besides, the Paladin will just be on support except during some tough fights (like dragon fights) where he will play the main role and use smite evil + skewer.
With so many fighters, the Paladin doesn't have to be optimized for common fights, I just want smite to hit reliably and the Pally to kick some teeth in each time he'll use it.

The Black dragon from chapter 4 killed my DK and rogue at least 2 times each during my previous Archmage run, I admit i forgot to re-cast mass mind blank before the fight and it cost me dearly.
Using the paladin with his high saving throws and bonus against dragons + smite evil will just work perfectly.

I think the gold for leveling is a trick to keep you underleveled so you earn more EXP. Looking forward to trying it with heavier consumable use.

I always stay underlevelled and earn more xp, last time, I almost cleared the whole chapter 3 besides snares and Xadriphar with 6 characters at level 8... Suffice to say I hit the XP jackpot!

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah Pal is great - tempted to try a Centaur there, I’m talking about the Bishop. Stats are already tight so can’t afford the mandatory Elf INT. Halfling isn’t awful for Bish.

Trickery/Travel Guardian HG Bish would be fun variant.

 

[Desiderius]

Favorite Domains:

Magic
Hunting
Turning
Mysticism
Reach
Banishment
Aberration/Justice/Undeath
Sun + Fire
Trickery/Tactics/Travel

Obv mix and match for preferred action economy. I haven’t done Hunting since I got better at ranged but would miss full BAB there I think.

I don’t think Healing needs the help but haven’t tried it. Could also go with the Inflict/Harm package. Silence is probably also pretty good for all the free meta.

 

[Desiderius]

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Replace auteur with autist and he's bang on.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Favorite Domains:

Magic
Hunting
Turning
Mysticism
Reach
Banishment
Aberration/Justice/Undeath
Sun + Fire
Trickery/Tactics/Travel

Obv mix and match for preferred action economy. I haven’t done Hunting since I got better at ranged but would miss full BAB there I think.

I don’t think Healing needs the help but haven’t tried it. Could also go with the Inflict/Harm package. Silence is probably also pretty good for all the free meta.

My Domain selection is slightly different, mostly because of healing domains and not using Summon domains, which is something of the past, I used a Bishop/abberation on my first run and I was happy to have it but with the new village, it's obsolete, you don't need them anymore.

Healing Domains:

• Flux: Increased range category for cure/heal/harm/inflict spells
• Curing: Cure (and mass) improved from standard to move action + cure ability which also removes blindness.
• Life: Cure (and mass) spells maximized for free.

It's unfortunate a Cleric only picks 2 domains, 3 would be just perfect.

Other great Domains:

• Magic: extra spells slots up to level 6 or 7. Magic stone empowered for free and increased range category.
• Mysticism: +2 concentration. Bless, Bane, Prayer and Greater Prayer bonus +1 and upgraded to move action.
• Reach: Extended spell range feats x3 for free. Magic stone to hit bonus +2. Soundburst and Holy Smite increased range category and improved AoE.
• Celerity: Haste ability 1/day, free action.

Here's my almost definitive new party:

• Argossian Paladin M
• Firedrake Fighter M
• Half-Giant Barbarian M
• Painted Mantis Gladiator
• Centaur Psychic Warrior M
• Moon Elf Cleric M (Flux, Curing), this one is quite sub-optimal, I might go with a Bishop with Flux, Curing, Life, Reach, Mysticism and Magic or Celerity.

And probably the water Elemental Storm Warrior and Pizarra (Warlock).

After building a Paladin, I'm starting to wonder if Asharazelle isn't worth the magic diamonds, if I remember correctly, she has 24 CHA and 16 STR, it's quite good...
Not with this party though, I'll have to use a lot of diamonds to craft.

The Psychic Warrior doesn't seem impressive on paper but spending 2 feats gets you a lot of buff as a move action (maybe some as a free action as well) like True Seeing and one of his buff enlarges him by 2 sizes... Grapple anyone?

 

[Desiderius]

The problem is that you're completely wasting half of your action economy.

Just Turning with Turning Domain is better than it looks because while it's narrow it turns on in some of the toughest fights. Genie chest he just nuked half the Spectres first round. With Succubus Pal and Elemental Storm Warrior you also have a powerful Heal.

But you can also use those activations on the Summoning Domains, which also turn on your Summoning spells by making them Standard instead of Full, and with Argossian you fit in the Summoning Feats (Abberation doesn't go obsolete for me, although he's hard to control), or either Sun/Fire or Destruction, Devastation/Wilting to give you some scaling touch attacks.

I mean I guess you get a Heal with Curing Domain but Magic gives you so many spells you should be set, and you've got Herbs or whatever too. If you want to heal more just pick up Healing Mastery, Cure spells don't scale so Maximize isn't that great.

 

[Darth Canoli]

The problem is that you're completely wasting half of your action economy.

Just Turning with Turning Domain is better than it looks because while it's narrow it turns on in some of the toughest fights. Genie chest he just nuked half the Spectres first round. With Succubus Pal and Elemental Storm Warrior you also have a powerful Heal.

But you can also use those activations on the Summoning Domains, which also turn on your Summoning spells by making them Standard instead of Full, and with Argossian you fit in the Summoning Feats (Abberation doesn't go obsolete for me, although he's hard to control), or either Sun/Fire or Destruction, Devastation/Wilting to give you some scaling touch attacks.

I mean I guess you get a Heal with Curing Domain but Magic gives you so many spells you should be set, and you've got Herbs or whatever too. If you want to heal more just pick up Healing Mastery, Cure spells don't scale so Maximize isn't that great.

I can see you like it but I find Turning extremely lame in KotC 2 because there's no fear nor destruction effect, it's just a small AoE of pathetic damage against monsters which will resist it most of the time halving it.
The enemies you can dispatch with it aren't worth the investment.

And I'd love to see you try to use it on a Dragon while I'll just Smite+Skewer the beast and dispatch him in 2/3 strikes...

My Cleric doesn't even have max charisma.

And the summons are not that useful either, even the basic druid's wolf works just as well as the tentacled horror.

 

[Desiderius]

The problem is that you're completely wasting half of your action economy.

Just Turning with Turning Domain is better than it looks because while it's narrow it turns on in some of the toughest fights. Genie chest he just nuked half the Spectres first round. With Succubus Pal and Elemental Storm Warrior you also have a powerful Heal.

But you can also use those activations on the Summoning Domains, which also turn on your Summoning spells by making them Standard instead of Full, and with Argossian you fit in the Summoning Feats (Abberation doesn't go obsolete for me, although he's hard to control), or either Sun/Fire or Destruction, Devastation/Wilting to give you some scaling touch attacks.

I mean I guess you get a Heal with Curing Domain but Magic gives you so many spells you should be set, and you've got Herbs or whatever too. If you want to heal more just pick up Healing Mastery, Cure spells don't scale so Maximize isn't that great.

I can see you like it but I find Turning extremely lame in KotC 2 because there's no fear nor destruction effect, it's just a small AoE of pathetic damage against monsters which will resist it most of the time halving it.
The enemies you can dispatch with it aren't worth the investment.

And I'd love to see you try to use it on a Dragon while I'll just Smite+Skewer the beast and dispatch him in 2/3 strikes...

My Cleric doesn't even have max charisma.

And the summons are not that useful either, even the basic druid's wolf works just as well as the tentacled horror.

Lol. It’s not pathetic. Why do people insist on posting about things they haven’t tested? I wouldn’t talk about it if it were pathetic. It’s pathetic without the Domain, it isn’t with it if you’ve got good CHR. The Domain ups the DC.

Your Bishop (not Cleric obv) doesn’t have max CHR because you’re blowing it on INT that does nothing. CHR gives you both activations and DC.

Your summons suck because your Elf doesn’t have enough Feats to make them good.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Lol. It’s not pathetic. Why do people insist on posting about things they haven’t tested? I wouldn’t talk about it if it were pathetic.

You know, a lot of us really missed you here.

 

[Yosharian]

I was thinking of ditching my Red Wizard for a Death Knight. I need more melee, my party is too caster-heavy, it's just really painful having so much dead weight around at the low levels rn. The new party would be:

1) Fighter TWF
2) Cleric Caster/Summoner
3) Geomancer Druid Caster
4) Psion
5) White Wizard
6 & 7) Jorad & Pizarra
+ the DK.

What do you guys think, is that a mistake or? Would you recommend a different melee class instead?

 

[Abu Antar]

^A DK could work with that. I see no real problem.