Game News Let's All Play Dragon Age 2

[Kaanyrvhok]

This same sort of bullshit occured pre DA1 release where people from all over claimed that DA was destined to fail.. we know the 'twist' in that story.

People claim that BIO story 'twists' are easily foreseeable but none of them as foreseeable as this.

DA2 will sell a bunch, most will like it, Codex majority will hate it, and would calimed to have to have stolen it. Butm, theys ecretely enjoyed it, and will promptly pick up the next BIO game no matter what.

Repeat repeatedly just like the last ten years.

R00fles!

People also said the same about Fable 3.

http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=fable

daze was right

 

[tehRPness]

Looks boring and ugly, true to the spirit of DA:O.

I honestly don't understand DA1 bashing here. After NWN it was one of the best RPG titles we had in the last few years, imho. I can accept that the main story was cliched and full of holes, but the depth of character on the companions, and the moral decisions the game raised (whether it handled the consequences well is onther matter) were really good. Also, what is it with all the 'filler combat' criticism here? Are we playing the same game? On the PC on hard, every fight was near impossible without a masterplan and lots of pausing. The enemies were meticulously set up, with traps and surprises that made each fight unique. There were no 'trash mobs' in my version.

Does that make me a full homo...?

Anyway, on topic - DA2 will sell, for proof, see the gamestop and bio forums, where in most cases that sale has been guaranteed by the size of Isabella's boobs. And the transition of ME1 to ME2. The majority loved it, despitite the ditching of any last vestiges of RPG elements. And then there are those who think that even a watered down version of Origins is still worth $60, while waiting for Skyrim, Dungeon Siege 3, Witcher 2.

'sup Drog?

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

I honestly don't understand DA1 bashing here. After NWN it was one of the best RPG titles we had in the last few years, imho. I can accept that the main story was cliched and full of holes, but the depth of character on the companions, and the moral decisions the game raised (whether it handled the consequences well is onther matter) were really good. Also, what is it with all the 'filler combat' criticism here? Are we playing the same game? On the PC on hard, every fight was near impossible without a masterplan and lots of pausing. The enemies were meticulously set up, with traps and surprises that made each fight unique. There were no 'trash mobs' in my version.

Does that make me a full homo...?

I have never played a game with more worthless filler combat and I quit before Deep Roads.

 

[Befuddled Halfling]

I have never played a game with more worthless filler combat and I quit before Deep Roads.

Can you give an example - a fight or set of fights or dungeon area, where you thought there were just random mobs with no tricks or surprises or challenges, that you dispatched without pausing the game or thinking about how to handle it?

I agree the deep roads had the deep stalkers which were not my favourite monster, but they still posed some challenge because there were just too many of them (like a dozen or more) and with spit and stun attacks. You could not use your special attacks on any one because it was a waste of stamina. And, often around the corner the deepstalker mother boss would suddenly join the fight making it another reload job.

Again, this is PC, on hard/nightmare.

I don't see the point of talking down DA - all it does it gives the devs an excuse to say "see, we can never please the RPG hardcore, let's give up on them and woo the Modern Warfare audience".

 

[baronjohn]

DX11 graphics comparison - in German

Just thought it worth mentioning whether they in fact implemented to put lipstick on a pig.

Apparently parallax mapping is now DX11-only :D I bet Microsoft paid them millions for this shit.

 

[Storyfag]

I have never played a game with more worthless filler combat and I quit before Deep Roads.

Can you give an example - a fight or set of fights or dungeon area, where you thought there were just random mobs with no tricks or surprises or challenges, that you dispatched without pausing the game or thinking about how to handle it?

The problem is not in the alleged randomness of the mobs. The problem is in that they're repetitive.

Deep Roads are like: Fight 2 genlocks, 2 hurlocs, an alpha and an emissary. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 genlocks, 2 hurlocs, an alpha and an emissary. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 genlocks, 2 hurlocs, an alpha and an emissary. Walk ten paces.

Blood Mages' hideout is like: Fight 2 rogues, 2 fighters, a qunari and a blood mage. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 rogues, 2 fighters, a qunari and a blood mage. Walk ten paces.Fight 2 rogues, 2 fighters, a qunari and a blood mage. Walk ten paces.

Redcliffe Castle is like: Fight 2 enraged corpses, 2 shambling corpses, a rage demon and a shade. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 enraged corpses, 2 shambling corpses, a rage demon and a shade. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 enraged corpses, 2 shambling corpses, a rage demon and a shade. Walk ten... you see the problem?

 

[Gosling]

I have never played a game with more worthless filler combat and I quit before Deep Roads.

How about Might&Magic VI? Have you ever played through the Tomb of VARN? Or some of the more repetitive GoldBox games that get praised over here?

Not defending DA games, but to me Derp Roads was the least of DA problems. Bland setting, cringeworthy characters, mostly boring quests, poor art direction, "modern world problems in a medieval setting" approach, emo-shit, lack of variety in gameplay, etc. killed the game. Yet every time DA is being bashed on the Dex: it's the Derp Roads that made the game so awful.

 

[Storyfag]

I have never played a game with more worthless filler combat and I quit before Deep Roads.

How about Might&Magic VI? Have you ever played through the Tomb of VARN? Or some of the more repetitive GoldBox games that get praised over here?

The Guarians of VARN actually die faster than derpspawn in the Derp Roads, and that is their sole saving grace.

Not defending DA games, but to me Derp Roads was the least of DA problems. Bland setting, cringeworthy characters, mostly boring quests, poor art direction, "modern world problems in a medieval setting" approach, emo-shit, lack of variety in gameplay, etc. killed the game. Yet every time DA is being bashed on the Dex: it's the Derp Roads that made the game so awful.

Well, that *is* true. I'd disagree with "modern problems in a medieval setting" which could be quite cool if only DAO did it right. But it didn't.

 

[Gosling]

Well, that *is* true. I'd disagree with "modern problems in a medieval setting" which could be quite cool if only DAO did it right. But it didn't.

To me it breaks the immersion (yes I know you're not supposed to say that) and feels like a cheap way to add more depth to the game: profound moral dilemmas regarding racism and terrorism in my generic medieval Europe, really?

But I can see a lot of people actually liking it, so it just boils down to differences in tastes I suppose.

 

[Storyfag]

profound moral dilemmas regarding racism and terrorism in my generic medieval Europe, really?

Really. Read up on the albigensian crusade. Can't get more generic medieval Europe than southern France. Religious presecution may not be exactly the same thing as racial presecution, but it's similar enough. Profound moral dilemmas? We won't hear of them, for only victors write history books. But I'm sure these were present too. That leaves us with terrorism. And behold: assassinations of papal legates and generals.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

How about Might&Magic VI? Have you ever played through the Tomb of VARN? Or some of the more repetitive GoldBox games that get praised over here?

I have played almost all of the Goldbox games and I can maybe name one that had as much pointless filler combat by memory and that was the Dark Queen of Krynn. These were Turnbased games with shitty load times so my tolerance for filler combat was lower and I never quit because of the pointless combat.

Can you give an example - a fight or set of fights or dungeon area, where you thought there were just random mobs with no tricks or surprises or challenges, that you dispatched without pausing the game or thinking about how to handle it?"

The Temple, the Tower, the Fade.

The Temple was nothing but pointless filler combat. It reminded me of Nintendo's sidescroller game Kung Fu. It was the worst encounters I have ever seen in an RPG. When I hear Deep Roads was worse I stop playing and didnt miss it.

The Tower was just demons in rooms. No personality. Everything fought the same with more or less hp.

The Fade was the same thing

Again, this is PC, on hard/nightmare.

I don't see the point of talking down DA - all it does it gives the devs an excuse to say "see, we can never please the RPG hardcore, let's give up on them and woo the Modern Warfare audience".

News for you... The console version was harder because you couldn't issue movement while paused so you couldn't kite effectively and that was tactic 101 in DAO. I played DAO without kiting and the game was still lacking in any strategic nuance. I wouldn't mind scratch that I would love for Bioware to dump this multi approach and deliver a decent action adventure game. As an action game the videos dont move me. It looks like a bargain bin hak and slash. As an RPG it has level scaling and MMO style player advancement so I cant take it seriously.

 

[Befuddled Halfling]

The problem is not in the alleged randomness of the mobs. The problem is in that they're repetitive.

Deep Roads are like: Fight 2 genlocks, 2 hurlocs, an alpha and an emissary. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 genlocks, 2 hurlocs, an alpha and an emissary. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 genlocks, 2 hurlocs, an alpha and an emissary. Walk ten paces.

Blood Mages' hideout is like: Fight 2 rogues, 2 fighters, a qunari and a blood mage. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 rogues, 2 fighters, a qunari and a blood mage. Walk ten paces.Fight 2 rogues, 2 fighters, a qunari and a blood mage. Walk ten paces.

Redcliffe Castle is like: Fight 2 enraged corpses, 2 shambling corpses, a rage demon and a shade. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 enraged corpses, 2 shambling corpses, a rage demon and a shade. Walk ten paces. Fight 2 enraged corpses, 2 shambling corpses, a rage demon and a shade. Walk ten... you see the problem?

I see your point, but don’t agree it applies. Let’s take the blood mages den.

You walk in and there is the dining room area. It has a balcony with archers and a trip wire trap on the way in the entrance that explodes and knocks your party down. You can’t run up the stairs to deal with the archers because there are leghold traps on the stairs. In the meantime the Qunari mercenaries and rogues on the ground floor butcher you.

Moving on, there are massive pressure plate traps (you did bring a rogue?) and doors that swing open with groups of melee and blood mages overwhelming you. With blood wound, your party is out of action and the melee and archers rip you a new one. Then the blood mages use the oil barrels for max effectiveness of fireball.

Next, there are corridors covered with ice in parts. As you are slipping on the ice, mabari hounds charge and there are archers behind barricades. Then the blood mage bosses – one does blood wound while the other fireball. Oh and there are two elite Qunari mercenaries helping out the two mages.

The point is, that each meter of that dungeon is carefully designed and challenging. That is what counts. Yes, the enemy types happen to have the same names. But the pace, positioning, sequencing, triggering, tactics, traps, layout, etc are all very different for each encounter, even within that micro dungeon. The boss fight is almost unwinnable on the PC unless you have mana clash, holy smite, or Andaste’s arrows. Your saying that it's "all the same" because the enemies in that dungeon are compriesed mainly of mages and rogues suggests you were playing on a console, or on normal or below on the PC. The point is what the level designers have done with those enemies. Your argument is like faulting any RPG of any era "because it's just the same orcs, kobalds, dragons - kill with swords and magic, rinse repeat".

 

[Storyfag]

You're still missing my point. The problem is that you have to fight stuff as often as in Diablo. But the stuff won't die as fast as in Diablo, resulting in making the game tedious. Cut half the mobs out (or spread them on a twice larger area) and things would look ten times better.

I played on PC, on easy. Jove forbid hard in this game. Killing all that stuff would take AEONS.

 

[Befuddled Halfling]

Can you give an example - a fight or set of fights or dungeon area, where you thought there were just random mobs with no tricks or surprises or challenges, that you dispatched without pausing the game or thinking about how to handle it?"

The Temple, the Tower, the Fade.

The Temple was nothing but pointless filler combat. It reminded me of Nintendo's sidescroller game Kung Fu. It was the worst encounters I have ever seen in an RPG. When I hear Deep Roads was worse I stop playing and didnt miss it.

The Tower was just demons in rooms. No personality. Everything fought the same with more or less hp.

Again, this is PC, on hard/nightmare.

I don't see the point of talking down DA - all it does it gives the devs an excuse to say "see, we can never please the RPG hardcore, let's give up on them and woo the Modern Warfare audience".

News for you... The console version was harder because you couldn't issue movement while paused so you couldn't kite effectively and that was tactic 101 in DAO. I played DAO without kiting and the game was still lacking in any strategic nuance. I wouldn't mind scratch that I would love for Bioware to dump this multi approach and deliver a decent action adventure game. As an action game the videos dont move me. It looks like a bargain bin hak and slash. As an RPG it has level scaling and MMO style player advancement so I cant take it seriously.

Re the Fade - I think you just didn't like the concept, as the Fade was just an exercise in going solo and utilizing the spirit/burning man/golem form skills.

Re consoles - I played one campaign, and was able to do with a party of 2 what I could barely do on the PC with 4. Take the Branka battle. Easy on a console. My impression was that there were fewer enemies and they came in waves, used fewer special skills.

Re kiting - that is not tactic 101. Stealth a rogue into a room to see what you're up against. Then mage sleep + waking nightmare or mass paralysis and fireball. The warriors and rogues just deal the coup de grace to an enemy that your (well built mage) has neatly gift wrapped.

 

[Befuddled Halfling]

I played on PC, on easy. Jove forbid hard in this game. Killing all that stuff would take AEONS.

Then you missed out on the best part of dragon age origins. I played 4 times, skipping the plot altogether (on runs 2-4). The only way that the level design is NOT trivial is to up the difficulty level. Only then do you appreciate how fiendish it was to put an oil barrel there, or to release 5 mabari hounds when the two elite assassins are still not dead, or to case crushing prison on your only melee DPS companion. It is NOT just about making the battles longer. When you play on hard you are realizing why the devs put the effort into placing that archer there, and that ballista here. Once you play on hard you get a new respect for the enormous effort that went into the dungeon design, and lament all the more that they have dumbed it all down in DA2, because "hard" was "too hard" for Mike Laidlaw.

If you play on easy, yeah, it is just a grind. An easy pointless grind. All the XP you earn is matched by the next wave of enemies anyway.

 

[Gord]

Apparently parallax mapping is now DX11-only :D I bet Microsoft paid them millions for this shit.

I guess that they are mostly utilizing DX11 to make the game run faster with higher settings, similar to e.g. Call of Pripyat, where DX11 without Tesselation is looking identical to DX10, but giving higher fps.

Could also mean that the engine cannot handle too high details otherwise.

 

[Thorwind]

holly crud! if the game feels like the demo buying or even playing for that matter is pointless.

the things they call a game these days....it baffles the mind

 

[Gosling]

profound moral dilemmas regarding racism and terrorism in my generic medieval Europe, really?

Really. Read up on the albigensian crusade. Can't get more generic medieval Europe than southern France. Religious presecution may not be exactly the same thing as racial presecution, but it's similar enough. Profound moral dilemmas? We won't hear of them, for only victors write history books. But I'm sure these were present too. That leaves us with terrorism. And behold: assassinations of papal legates and generals.

Assassinations of state officials or military personel/officers are not terrorism. Witcher had terrorism because apparently Sapkowski thought that exploring modern problems in a fantasy environment was the new shit. And it probably worked out for him and his world on a conceptual level.

Albigensian crusade did not have racist/nazi connotations at all. Vested political interests aside, that was a purely religious matter. And I didn't say a word against implementing religious conflicts in a medieval setting, in fact they would seem highly plausible if executed correctly and not in a half-assed "lol I'm a bloodmage rebel sticking it to the system Easy Rider style because atheism is cool" biowarian way.
Now a better example would probably be the attitude to Muslims (savage infidels with somehow highly evolved culture and probably worth of respect on the battlefield but still probably better exterminated as a whole altogether) and Jews with their city ghettos (Elves in DA) but then again nobody was feeling particularly acute pangs of concience about those issues at the time.

Anyways, my gripe is with the fact that while using a distinctly medieval setting with its clearly medieval mindset (feudalism, monotheistic Church, pre-Renaissance level of culture and economy) the dialogues and quest solutions are written with a modern mindset in mind.

I realize that these games are made for the modern day gamer and that it makes sense for many people. But sometimes I just don't want to play a vegan PETA/Amnesty International activist or a smug know-it-all relativist in a world that does not even support such way of thinking.

 

[Crolug]

DAOII Fairy Tale:

1. Oh look, Hawke's sister got big boobs. Figures...
2. Oh damn, Tom Gop from CDP Red wasn't lying - The Witcher 2 probably would look better, 'cause this thing looks like so last year.
3. Oh wait, so I basically hack&slash, mash 1-6 buttons and sometimes press pause to see if I smashed everything? And that's it? Damn, it's good I still got Diablo II on HDD.
4. Uninstall.

 

[Rude Dude]

I played on PC, on easy. Jove forbid hard in this game. Killing all that stuff would take AEONS.

Then you missed out on the best part of dragon age origins. I played 4 times, skipping the plot altogether (on runs 2-4). The only way that the level design is NOT trivial is to up the difficulty level. Only then do you appreciate how fiendish it was to put an oil barrel there, or to release 5 mabari hounds when the two elite assassins are still not dead, or to case crushing prison on your only melee DPS companion. It is NOT just about making the battles longer. When you play on hard you are realizing why the devs put the effort into placing that archer there, and that ballista here. Once you play on hard you get a new respect for the enormous effort that went into the dungeon design, and lament all the more that they have dumbed it all down in DA2, because "hard" was "too hard" for Mike Laidlaw.

If you play on easy, yeah, it is just a grind. An easy pointless grind. All the XP you earn is matched by the next wave of enemies anyway.

These are completely new insights for me. I guess i have to acquire DA:O again and have to play through it 7 times to appreciate the love the leveldesigners put into the wonderful encounterdesign of Dragon Age.

Well, my opinion after 1 run: Difficulty is only interesting when fighting "bosses". I played a great deal of the game on nightmare changed towards the end (for me the deap roads) to easy. Nearly every encounter was the same as before with the 3 archetypes Fighter, Rogue Mage, shuffled here and there a bit.

But seriously search for the 50 pages long DA-discussion thread. There are many opinions, better stated than mine. As far as I can remember, the consensus was: Shit filler combat

 

[Befuddled Halfling]

But seriously search for the 50 pages long DA-discussion thread. There are many opinions, better stated than mine. As far as I can remember, the consensus was: Shit filler combat

As I said before, PC =/= console. If the consensus was 'shit filler combat' then maybe the guys posting there were closet Modern Warfare fanbois. If you point me to a link, I'll go over it. I normally have a lot of respect for what's written on these forums - in fact I'm just in the middle of DKS solely because of a long positive thread about the game.

There is no such thing as 'filler' in DA:O - all enemies are hand placed, by a pedantic, fiendish DM. This is no Sacred 2 or Dungeon Siege 2. It is this type of uninformed criticism that is contributing the the decline of the tactical RPG. BioWare has every right to look at these forums - after 5 years of working on something as (comparatively) hardcore as DA:O - and conclude that NOTHING can be done to please this crowd. So they try their luck with the Modern Warfare audience.

Already people are admitting that this myth of 'shit filler combat' comes from playing EITHER on consoles or on normal/casual PC. In this case, yes. The enemies are nerfed, traps don't go off, special powers don't go off (eg the worst an enemy mage will cast is winter's grasp rather than crushing prison). Then the combat just gets in the way of a rather cliched story riddled with ludicrous plot holes.

So..... with RPG people saying DA:O was full of filler shit, and the Modern Warfare crowd saying DA:O made their little ADHD afflicted brains hurt ...... we get DA2! A Dungeon Siege 2 with cutscenes. And it looks like the Witcher 2 is also twitch reflex combat.

 

[tehRPness]

But I can see a lot of people actually liking it, so it just boils down to differences in tastes I suppose.

Some people like getting shat in the mouth by trannies too, and I prefer being politically uncorrect enough to maintain mockery rights of them as well.

 

[Gord]

2. Oh damn, Tom Gop from CDP Red wasn't lying - The Witcher 2 probably would look better, 'cause this thing looks like so last year..

More like 5 years ago, because that's the age of the current generation of consoles.
This is what you get from multi-platform development...

See also: http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=55884

Honestly though, graphics might not be top-of-the-notch, but they are ok and something I can easily live with if the rest of the game is good.

 

[tehRPness]

2. Oh damn, Tom Gop from CDP Red wasn't lying - The Witcher 2 probably would look better, 'cause this thing looks like so last year..

More like 5 years ago, because that's the age of the current generation of consoles.
This is what you get from multi-platform development...

See also: http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=55884

Honestly though, graphics might not be top-of-the-notch, but they are ok and something I can easily live with if the rest of the game is good.

Problem is, the visuals is the only focus of the game. Combat mechanics and overall shiny & prettiness is the game's selling point, and those things have degenerated since DA:O.

 

[Rude Dude]

Elzairs Review:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=197

Discussion Thread(80 pages lol):
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=37800

VDs Review:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=195