Linguistic comparison of IE games with Nu-Games

[Ol' Willy]

This is the gayest codex thread

This is a thread for cunning linguists

 

[Brancaleone]

Yeah, I'm mostly on board with that way of looking at it. For POE, I think a lot of difficulty came with trying to introduce multiple distinct speaks. Sure, it is mostly reasonable on paper in terms of how the words are constructed, and it also might be a good way of depicting a pseudo-colonial melting pot area, but in terms of the actual player experience, you're giving yourself a much harder job of selling a cohesive, cool world.

I remember thinking after POE1 that I'd like to see the sequel set in Old Vailia, somewhere where you can be really steeped in one of the lore cultures, but instead they went for even more of a melting pot. I actually like the look & feel of Deadfire and the tensions between natives and transplants, but again they gave themselves a needlessly difficult job of having multiple colonial factions plus natives to represent, plus Engwithan stuff in the background.

Perhaps the postenagos feel even more out of place because the player, again given the sheer variety of cultures suddenly thrown into their lap, finds it difficult to keep track of their personalities and cultural quirks. There are copious uses of 'foreign' words in tons of fantasy RPGs out there, but it's one thing for eveyrone to speak English in your game and have one Not-Orcs race go on and on about their own weird honour concept with their own special words. It's quite another to just have everybody you talk to pull out belfettos.

Exactly, they only exacerbated the problem by putting so many ethnically different factions all together: this way each faction has very little 'screen time', and the frequency of the occurrences of the pastenagos goes drastically up.

There would be ways to achieve the goal without things feeling tacked on/unnatural, but they are not exactly easy paths: you can try to convey ethnicity by voice acting alone, but then you need really good quality voice acting in order for it not to feel like a series of contemporary caricatures. I mean, many movies with budgets much bigger than PoE go for the 'every fifth word has to be foreign' route for a reason. Or you can devise a series of scenarios where the meaning of the foreign words can be naturally inferred from the context, but then you need quite skilled writers, and I don't mean just 'skilled for a videogame'.

Plus, I get the feeling that they felt the pressing need to showcase all of their world-building efforts in Deadfire, no matter what, and regardless of whether it would come out as organic and natural or not. So there you go.

P.S. Yes, the Not-Orc going on about Not-Orcish cultural idiosyncrasies is much less of a problem, since after all he's trying to explain to you what terms that supposedly don't have a perfect English equivalent mean, and there's plenty of room for the player to receive direct explanations about them. But when it's just a foreigner talking to the main character in good English and sabotaging the effectiveness of his own communicative effort just in order to showcase his ethnicity, it creates some equivalent of an uncanny valley effect. While the Not-Orc nagging you with his stuff is not sabotaging his own communicative effort, quite the contrary (although the writer might not be pulling it off in the most skilled way and might make it sound like the vegan who just has to tell you everything about his dietary philosophy).

 

[Storyfag]

This is the gayest codex thread

Not really. Something is missing. Or, to be preciese, someone. Humanity has risen!

 

[anvi]

tldr = https://imgur.com/lCo1uAP

 

[Vladimuar]

As a non-native speaker I regard Tyranny highly. It enriched my vocabulary beyond words. Now I know what 'highfalutin' means, so I can show myself off in highfalutin forums.

 

[Naveen]

PST: you wake up in a morgue, talk to a zombie, the skull interjects: "Look, chief, these dead chits are the last chance for a couple of hardy bashers like us".

Tyranny: a random NPC runs to you with an AI generated quest: "Kyros be praised, you came! We were told a fatebinder was coming. Graven Ashe and The Voices of Nerat can't agree on the battle plans to wipe out the oathbinders. I trust you brought orders from Tunon to help them solve their dispute!"

Which game has better writing and plot so far?

Haha, I don't know if that's an actual text from the game or paraphrasing it, but that's the standard fantasy and sci-fi naming convention now. I don't know when it started, but it's a recent thing, two decades at most I believe, which probably explains why old games don't have it. It's true that it's a thing English can do and gives a "fantasy" vibe to your text, but writers abuse it.

Modern Warhammer is a known abuser, but it's also done by more "literary" fantasy writers and it's a very common way to name your book or videogame (look at all the games called "something-bound.") Everything is named by compound words: "Hello, I'm Pepe Frostwalker, Firebinder and Greysmyth from the city of Spearfall and cousin of King Cletus the Goatshagger III, I'm here to help you defeat the Mystwalkers." It isn't even jargon or new exotic words, just smashing together some very specific fantasy-sounding nouns with certain participles or verbs (-bound, -born, -binder, -walker, -fall, -torn, etc.) It becomes pretty unreadable once you notice it.

Anyway, interesting post. I have not played Tyranny but this picked my curiosity and I installed it. Let's see if the writing gives me brain cancer.

 

[Tigranes]

PST: you wake up in a morgue, talk to a zombie, the skull interjects: "Look, chief, these dead chits are the last chance for a couple of hardy bashers like us".

Tyranny: a random NPC runs to you with an AI generated quest: "Kyros be praised, you came! We were told a fatebinder was coming. Graven Ashe and The Voices of Nerat can't agree on the battle plans to wipe out the oathbinders. I trust you brought orders from Tunon to help them solve their dispute!"

Which game has better writing and plot so far?

Haha, I don't know if that's an actual text from the game or paraphrasing it, but that's the standard fantasy and sci-fi naming convention now. I don't know when it started, but it's a recent thing, two decades at most I believe, which probably explains why old games don't have it. It's true that it's a thing English can do and gives a "fantasy" vibe to your text, but writers abuse it.

Modern Warhammer is a known abuser, but it's also done by more "literary" fantasy writers and it's a very common way to name your book or videogame (look at all the games called "something-bound.") Everything is named by compound words: "Hello, I'm Pepe Frostwalker, Firebinder and Greysmyth from the city of Spearfall and cousin of King Cletus the Goatshagger III, I'm here to help you defeat the Mystwalkers." It isn't even jargon or new exotic words, just smashing together some very specific fantasy-sounding nouns with certain participles or verbs (-bound, -born, -binder, -walker, -fall, -torn, etc.) It becomes pretty unreadable once you notice it.

Anyway, interesting post. I have not played Tyranny but this picked my curiosity and I installed it. Let's see if the writing gives me brain cancer.

How is this new? These English compounds are baked into, say, the Forgotten Realms/D&D (Underdark, Waterdeep, hell, Ravenloft and Dragonlance). This was also a feature in Tolkien, though there's an additional twist where the names are compounds of, say, Old English / Old Norse (e.g. Gandalfr means staff-elf), as well as plain old compounds like Treebeard.

It's interesting, though, because I find English compounds irritating as well, and would almost prefer fampyrs or Drizzt than a game full of Promisebreakers and Oatmealcrunchers. But I've seen people here suggest that the latter 'feels' familiarly fantasy.

 

[Storyfag]

PST: you wake up in a morgue, talk to a zombie, the skull interjects: "Look, chief, these dead chits are the last chance for a couple of hardy bashers like us".

Tyranny: a random NPC runs to you with an AI generated quest: "Kyros be praised, you came! We were told a fatebinder was coming. Graven Ashe and The Voices of Nerat can't agree on the battle plans to wipe out the oathbinders. I trust you brought orders from Tunon to help them solve their dispute!"

Which game has better writing and plot so far?

Haha, I don't know if that's an actual text from the game or paraphrasing it, but that's the standard fantasy and sci-fi naming convention now. I don't know when it started, but it's a recent thing, two decades at most I believe, which probably explains why old games don't have it. It's true that it's a thing English can do and gives a "fantasy" vibe to your text, but writers abuse it.

Modern Warhammer is a known abuser, but it's also done by more "literary" fantasy writers and it's a very common way to name your book or videogame (look at all the games called "something-bound.") Everything is named by compound words: "Hello, I'm Pepe Frostwalker, Firebinder and Greysmyth from the city of Spearfall and cousin of King Cletus the Goatshagger III, I'm here to help you defeat the Mystwalkers." It isn't even jargon or new exotic words, just smashing together some very specific fantasy-sounding nouns with certain participles or verbs (-bound, -born, -binder, -walker, -fall, -torn, etc.) It becomes pretty unreadable once you notice it.

Anyway, interesting post. I have not played Tyranny but this picked my curiosity and I installed it. Let's see if the writing gives me brain cancer.

How is this new? These English compounds are baked into, say, the Forgotten Realms/D&D (Underdark, Waterdeep, hell, Ravenloft and Dragonlance). This was also a feature in Tolkien, though there's an additional twist where the names are compounds of, say, Old English / Old Norse (e.g. Gandalfr means staff-elf), as well as plain old compounds like Treebeard.

But he does note that the current problem is with writers abusing it, not with them using it at all.

 

[Naveen]

How is this new? These English compounds are baked into, say, the Forgotten Realms/D&D (Underdark, Waterdeep, hell, Ravenloft and Dragonlance). This was also a feature in Tolkien, though there's an additional twist where the names are compounds of, say, Old English / Old Norse (e.g. Gandalfr means staff-elf), as well as plain old compounds like Treebeard.

It's interesting, though, because I find English compounds irritating as well, and would almost prefer fampyrs or Drizzt than a game full of Promisebreakers and Oatmealcrunchers. But I've seen people here suggest that the latter 'feels' familiarly fantasy.

Yeah, but I don't think it's the same. It's hard to explain because it's one of those things you know annoy you but it's not easy to put it into words. Forgotten Realms is lazy, but it doesn't annoy me that much I believe. Waterdeep, it's like calling someplace Greenland or orcs "greenskins." You get the meaning, which is simple. Underdark, it's under, and dark. Icewind Dale? It's a dale and it's windy and cold. Waterdeep? Well, it's a coastal city, and it has water, so there you go. Candlekeep, it's a fortress, but for scholars. Dragonlance, well, it's lazy, but there are dragons, so there's that. Ravenloft? Didn't even notice it, which is a good sign, but a Raven is a very Gothic animal so I guess it fits the setting? And so on. These are names for places or worlds and I believe that's the difference. An imaginary place, setting, world, needs a name. Oathbreaker? Fatebinder? Oathbound? Well, there are oaths, and these people broke them so they are... traitors? Fatebinder? Suuuure, they "bind?" the fate of people, like they are... Judges? Oathbound? You mean "Loyal"? It's like calling a garbage man The Filthpurger or a code monkey a Dataweaver.

It's unnecessary grandiose and easily becomes a self-parody if used in everyday contexts rather than in formal settings, poetry, or for very unique characters. These are titles and sometimes even names, and there are usually common alternatives so the compound version feels, to me, forced. Besides, as I said, the compounds are all very similar and I seriously have trouble remembering from which game, book, or setting they are, as the second part is usually some kind of -bind, -bound, -born, -torn, -storm, -breaker, and -fall or something like that. To me it feels like some computer generated them.

 

[octavius]

Don't be such a soothsayer.

 

[Andnjord]

Dataweaver

That one is pretty cute :D

What you're saying brings a comparison to French in mind. In France there is this joke about over-inflated titles, using the cleaning lady/men as an example. Instead of being called a maid or cleaning lady, they're called 'Surface Technician' in administrative jargon, but nobody in their right mind would use that term outside of an admin context or as a joke to make a menial job sound more grandiose. My impression is that these coumpound titles you're refering to sound like official titles, words that would be used in very specific contexts, but since poor writers can't help but plaster them everywhere, we get this feeling that everyone is a courtier/admin robot who is constantly speaking in corporate-speak.

 

[lukaszek]

but then i quite liked skaven wh names

 

[Ninjerk]

Dataweaver

That one is pretty cute :D

What you're saying brings a comparison to French in mind. In France there is this joke about over-inflated titles, using the cleaning lady/men as an example. Instead of being called a maid or cleaning lady, they're called 'Surface Technician' in administrative jargon, but nobody in their right mind would use that term outside of an admin context or as a joke to make a menial job sound more grandiose. My impression is that these coumpound titles you're refering to sound like official titles, words that would be used in very specific contexts, but since poor writers can't help but plaster them everywhere, we get this feeling that everyone is a courtier/admin robot who is constantly speaking in corporate-speak.

One of my friends' first jobs was Dish Machine Operator.

 

[Tigranes]

... These are names for places or worlds and I believe that's the difference. An imaginary place, setting, world, needs a name. Oathbreaker? Fatebinder? Oathbound? Well, there are oaths, and these people broke them so they are... traitors? Fatebinder? Suuuure, they "bind?" the fate of people, like they are... Judges? Oathbound? You mean "Loyal"? It's like calling a garbage man The Filthpurger or a code monkey a Dataweaver.

It's unnecessary grandiose and easily becomes a self-parody if used in everyday contexts rather than in formal settings, poetry, or for very unique characters. These are titles and sometimes even names, and there are usually common alternatives so the compound version feels, to me, forced. Besides, as I said, the compounds are all very similar and I seriously have trouble remembering from which game, book, or setting they are, as the second part is usually some kind of -bind, -bound, -born, -torn, -storm, -breaker, and -fall or something like that. To me it feels like some computer generated them.

I get you on the places, but it's weird to me how apparently jobs/roles can't follow the same convention without being super-cringe? Yeah, a fatebinder binds the fate of people. Just like a firefighter fights fire. A homemaker makes homes. A blacksmith literally smithes black (i.e. 'black metal', it used to be, for iron). Wheelwrights. Bookkeepers. Lifeguards. Shopkeepers. You go back to 19th century or earlier and there are plenty of other compounds like this that are even more pronounced, like river rat (sent logs downriver). I don't know if it's the majority, but a huge amount of English job names are like this. (Other languages, too, but obviously fantasy is very English.)

If we accept that the compound placenames in fantasy generally has a lot to do with the preponderance of similar compounds in English history (and today), the same would go for Dataweavers or Filthpurgers. I suspect the real issue that grates for Tyranny is not just one thing like Fatebinder, but a sense that everything is putting on airs and trying to be dramatic and epic.

If we're talking about formal titles as opposed to vernacular job names, it's a little different, but a Fatebinder isn't just a position like Baron/Baroness, it's primarily defined by its role.

I do share your sentiment in one sense - there are cases where the compound is clearly nonsense just to stroke the player's dick, like, I mentioned earlier in this thread, Knight-Captain in NWN2.

 

[CappenVarra]

But when it's just a foreigner talking to the main character in good English and sabotaging the effectiveness of his own communicative effort just in order to showcase his ethnicity, it creates some equivalent of an uncanny valley effect.

in other words, it's all different flavours of Hercule Poirot

except none of them are written by anybody half as competent as aunt Agatha (not that that's a high bar to clear, mind you)

 

[LannTheStupid]

but it's weird to me how apparently jobs/roles can't follow the same convention without being super-cringe? Yeah, a fatebinder binds the fate of people.

This is much simpler than that.

Kyros runs a military organization. Not all military "captains" sail ships. Not all military "colonels" command regiments. However, failure to speak to them properly might incur penalty from vocal reprimand to court marshal. The form of the military hierarchy does not matter until it is enforced; and Kyros, apparently, can enforce it. So the title "Fatebinder" - however pointless it is - has the power behind it. And this is all that matters.

 

[Brancaleone]

I suspect the real issue that grates for Tyranny is not just one thing like Fatebinder, but a sense that everything is putting on airs and trying to be dramatic and epic.

In the specific case of 'Fatebinder', it's definitely the fact that it sounds overly grandiose for what the role actually is: you "bind fates" while your boss and creator of your group is a mere "Adjudicator" (which actually works much better in understating nicely what Tunon is, I'd say a bit like 'Executor' in Starcraft 1). And at the same time it manages not to convey any information at all about your actual role: any position of sufficient power and impact on people's lives can technically be covered by that definition. It's just as uninformative as 'Ordergiver' would be for, say, a field commander.

Just as a mental exercise, since the devs said explicitly that the inspiration was Judge Dredd, how appropriate would 'Fatebinder' be to describe everybody's favourite judge-policeman-executioner combo?

 

[Tigranes]

Right, I can see how "Fatebinder" can fall into "oh just another fucking dumb masturbatory name for CHOSEN ONE", like Knight Captain. You can justify it, of course, you can always justify anything in a made up setting, but that doesn't reduce the grating.

It would be fun to play a game where the PC ends up taking on a Chosen One role for political purposes (Lord British requires you to be World-Uniter to rally the people against the orc menace!) and the PC can lean into it and become a pompous Anomen, be really allergic to the honorifics, etc. - and meets plenty of NPCs who can't take you seriously and protest banners around town mocking the title. In regular CRPGs, you're more likely to find someone who mocks you, beat the shit out of them, and affirm that you really are Super-Destiny-Changer.

 

[lukaszek]

It would be fun to play a game where the PC ends up taking on a Chosen One role for political purposes

like in aod?

 

[NJClaw]

I understand the "dumb pompous names" criticism, but I think that in this particular case it's justified. The sanctity of the law is the tenet around which the entire empire of Kyros is built. Bringing uncivilized men under the protection of his law is the entire justification for his world conquest. So it makes sense for the men responsible for the upholding of his laws to have a pompous title.

Also, the usage of these sometimes cringy titles makes a lot of sense in the context of Tyranny's setting, since people's perception of a figure can shape that figure's powers and high-sounding titles can help to convey powerful associations.

 

[Tigranes]

I understand the "dumb pompous names" criticism, but I think that in this particular case it's justified. The sanctity of the law is the tenet around which the entire empire of Kyros is built. Bringing uncivilized men under the protection of his law is the entire justification for his world conquest. So it makes sense for the men responsible for the upholding of his laws to have a pompous title.

Also, the usage of these sometimes cringy titles makes a lot of sense in the context of Tyranny's setting, since people's perception of a figure can shape that figure's powers and high-sounding titles can help to convey powerful associations.

For me, the key lesson is that names can be super interesting if they reveal something deeper about your gameworld, which requires a lot of thinking through. Basic compounds can do that at an elementary level (Spellweaver because magic comes from the Weave in our setting blah blah), but yes, it would be really interesting for a new empire to insist on gaudy names and ceremonies to assert their authority, perhaps taking over existing festivals and local names for them with their own weird translations. That's the kind of thing where it'd be nice to go to a town and have the officials call the upcoming festival Saturnalia and the downtrodden locals call it something else.

You can do a lot of little sidequests & moments with stuff like that - e.g. the conquering people's predilection for magnificent beards leads to the locals calling them the Bearded Ones (IIRC the actual name for Byzantine eunuchs?), and player comes across little moments like a local boy growing a beard to fit in & climb the ladder and getting mocked by both sides for it, or thinly veiled jokes at beards locals use to poke fun at the oppressors. (And, perhaps, a practice of scalping beards during the violent uprising.)

And I think if you're trying to do this there's no getting around that some people will find some of your names offputting for some hard-to-define reason.

 

[Roguey]

No wonder. In terms of dialogue text it's twice as long as POE1 and PST. It's another one of those games where the editors just didn't show up to work.

Tyranny did have an editor and according to Avellone's spies, the writers absolutely hated him https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...iting-by-novelists.121976/page-2#post-5626228

 

[ERYFKRAD]

For me, the key lesson is that names can be super interesting if they reveal something deeper about your gameworld, which requires a lot of thinking through.

I suspect they were trying to bring about a Black Company vibe, given that they cite it as an inspiration. Of course, in contrast to the simple and concise nomenclature of Glen Cook(Limper, One Eye, Shifter), they went and overdid it(Voices of Nerat contra Soulcatcher for example)

 

[Brancaleone]

I understand the "dumb pompous names" criticism, but I think that in this particular case it's justified. The sanctity of the law is the tenet around which the entire empire of Kyros is built. Bringing uncivilized men under the protection of his law is the entire justification for his world conquest. So it makes sense for the men responsible for the upholding of his laws to have a pompous title.

Also, the usage of these sometimes cringy titles makes a lot of sense in the context of Tyranny's setting, since people's perception of a figure can shape that figure's powers and high-sounding titles can help to convey powerful associations.

I think part of the problem is that you don't shape the fates of people you choose to according to what you decide: you are just a tool meant to carry out the will of another guy, who in turn is carrying out the will of yet another guy. Fatebinder would be an appropriate title for Kyros (he's the one who decides, and he can bind the fate of anybody he chooses to), but no, he's just the Overlord. And then your boss is just the Adjudicator. I mean, the lowliest of executioners literally binds the fate of each of his victims, and any guard acting in the name of the king is carrying quite some power in his hands (although it's not for him to decide what to do with it), but neither of them wouldn't justify that kind of title. I'd say overall it's the combination of three factors, being generic to the point of being misleading (Fatebinder evokes something much grander than being a cog in a strict hierarchy), excessive grandiosity, and inconsistent progression with the titles of your superiors (it would probably work better if Kyros was, idk, 'Supreme Nemesis of Chaos' and Tunon 'The Hand of God' or something like that).

For me, the key lesson is that names can be super interesting if they reveal something deeper about your gameworld, which requires a lot of thinking through.

Absolutely. That works much better if the title is obscure/suggestive (and you get the 'Ah-ha! Now it makes sense!' moment), while it being generic detracts from it (and you get the disappointing 'That's it? I did not learn anything from this' moment). I'd say being overly grandiose tends to work as an amplifier of the two mentioned outcomes (obscure/cryptic vs generic).

 

[Blaine]

Bester In years past, I've had a thing or two to say about the degenerate linguistics on show in PoE/2.

It's hilarious to me that a cheesy compound word is the most-used word in a game that also includes a cheesy compound word in its fucking title.

They put a generic and edgy fantasy-themed compound word in the actual title of the game.

Developers, made-up compound words are a lazy crutch and a cancer of the fantasy genre. You need to keep them to a bare minimum.

Here, let me demonstrate how easy and lazy it is. I won't even pause while typing:

"Dawnstone"

"Shadewood"

"Stonehaven"

"Blackblade"

"Icethorn"

"Sunleaf"

"Nightlord"

"Mistvale"

"Windspear"

...et cetera and so on. If you're going to tryhard the game's writing, at least try to avoid plebby crap like this. Title's already out though, so I guess it's too late on that count.

Keep going for non-idea stealing reasons.

Here, I'll even translate them to Engwithan for you:

"Dwynstonn"

"Shaadwyd"

"Stynhaavn"

"Blykbladd"

"Iosthyrnn"

"Synloef"

"Nytlyrd"

"Mystvaal"

"Wyndspyr"