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Elfberserker

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Yuhua Hall can act as a mediator between the parties. They have the influence to do so, and they can arrange for a trade agreement with Wo people. Not so much for enlisting them in the military, but all we need for now is a recognition of their existing status.

Well the thing is that even if we bring up the fact that government has official giving them that island, most pugilists and perhaps some masters may simply don't care since they are still pirates and may continue pirating if things don't work out.

And since the prostitutes have taken an interest in us, I think they would comply with our requests, as they clearly work to the benefit of all involved. They certainly wouldn't be the ones blinded by the concept of honor and saving face

They would definitely be interested in getting more customers and they could be influential enough to get trading starting. We definitely need scholarbro to get miss Yuhua hall manager here to mediate.

treave, can we let Miss Zhou stay here with our scholar friend and then return to the mainland? I don't think it will matter much to our plan if we stay on the island or leave in A2

Waiting for this before voting.
 

Baltika9

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Interesting.

treave, can we let Miss Zhou stay here with our scholar friend and then return to the mainland? I don't think it will matter much to our plan if we stay on the island or leave in A2.

I think we can get Yuhua Hall on our side.
I don't think it'll make too much of a difference on Yuhua's opinion, if we negotiate with them on the island or on the mainland. Also, returning now will cause quite a few questions such as 'where is Miss Zhou, she was last seen following you!' and 'we saw you heading and returning from the docks, where have you been!' I'd rather leave A2 as it is, otherwise ut's getting too complicated, I'd rather we get a good night's sleep in, plan everything appropriately and sit tight, rather than jump around everywhere.
Make it A3 if you like.
 

Kipeci

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Actually... this boss guy here said that he'd be willing to give his head for a peace. Maybe we should see if that's true? treave , would it be possible to talk him into a deal in which he agrees to accept the penalty for leading the piracy of the group in exchange for defending his prople and speaking for them once he is no longer able? There's got to be some accountability here for their crimes, and it might as well be their leader who assumes this burden.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Lambchop said:
A2 sounds like it will piss off every pugilist
We exist for the sole reason to piss off the self-righteous.
And here I thought the our goal was helping the prince, not pissing off potential future allies - shit, wasn't making the orthodox sects not completely hate us the whole reason we met with them back during the tournament?
Lambchop said:
ruin to the UTTERMOST our rep with the majority of the orthodox community
Why? Will the daughter tell we kidnapped her? Isn't she going to cooperate?
Whether she cooperates or not isn't the issue, the issue is that we will look like a kidnapper helping the pirates from minute one. What other explanation can there be for us disappearing late at night with the guy's daughter and then suddenly showing up with their enemies and offering to negotiate for her life? Our name is dirt to these people. Only one guy has given us the benefit of doubt and we just made off with his daughter and handed her over to pirates. Any lie we spin would have to be confirmed by her after she's freed, and even then it would look suspicious.
Lambchop said:
probably get the girl killed.
How do you envision it, if the negotiations turn out to be successful?
Not if they do, but if they don't. Maybe the Songfeng retards try something and in the confusion the girl is mortally wounded. A stray arrow or a sword swung too widely and she's dead. Also, remember that these ARE pirates and they will kill if backed into a corner. If she dies, we will have no one to defend us and say that we didn't kidnap her.
Even if we manage A2, though, we'll need to take care of this situation by making a petition to Shun. It cannot continue as it did for much longer.
Bad idea. Shun isn't our trump card. He's not the emperor, only a prince. Besides, telling people who are being persecuted by pirates, not to fight back would make his dynasty even less popular with the people, so not only do I doubt he (or rather, his father) would do it, but it may end up sending the country further in the direction of civil war if he does.
 
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Baltika9

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Not if the State sings them on and gives them means to sustain themselves by taking them on as mercs, they pirate out of necessity.
Also, the young missy would be a willing hostage, I think she'll be doing more negotiating then us, since she already sympathizes with the pirates. And honestly, they are decent people in a shitty situation, plus their leader is a very bro dude.

By the way, the sects are no friends to the Dynasty and never will be. They are way too powerful for that.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Hey, why stop there? Why don't we just get Shun to ship us a boat full of money and hookers while we're at it? *sigh* treave, what do you say? Is Shun our trump card that can/will fix this mess permanently should negotiation be successful?
 

Baltika9

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Well, obviously we can't offer them anything publically, we are exiled after all. What we can do is get a message to Shun (beggars, Yuhua or the secret scribing post in Chang'an Palace). Shun values Jing's word greatly, so if we relay the message and vouch for these guys, he will trust us and from there, enlist them for the State.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
You mean the guy would could only manage to get us out of pig rape by exile? Seriously, does Shun even have the authority to hire them? This just get's more and more ridiculous.
 

Baltika9

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Well, we really did screw the pooch on that one. The bodyguard is supposed to protect the client, not the other way around.*
But as designated heir, his responsibilities grow with age. All he needs to do is arrange for an agent to investigate them/come along himself and recommend them to the Emperor.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
Interesting.

treave, can we let Miss Zhou stay here with our scholar friend and then return to the mainland? I don't think it will matter much to our plan if we stay on the island or leave in A2.

I think we can get Yuhua Hall on our side.

You won't make it back before the pugilists have departed, and I'm not going to detail the pros and cons, but if that's how you want to play it, sure. Go ahead and vote for this alternative.

Actually... this boss guy here said that he'd be willing to give his head for a peace. Maybe we should see if that's true? treave , would it be possible to talk him into a deal in which he agrees to accept the penalty for leading the piracy of the group in exchange for defending his prople and speaking for them once he is no longer able? There's got to be some accountability here for their crimes, and it might as well be their leader who assumes this burden.

Who's going to speak for and defend his people? You? Are you willing to settle down on the island and lead them? Can you guarantee that they will survive and thrive and one day be able to return to their homeland in exchange for his head? What are your long-term plans? Do you even have any? Will you put the interests of his people over that of your own or your country? Why should he trust you with his head in the first place?

You'll have to address these questions to even begin making a plausible case.

Hey, why stop there? Why don't we just get Shun to ship us a boat full of money and hookers while we're at it? *sigh* treave, what do you say? Is Shun our trump card that can/will fix this mess permanently should negotiation be successful?

Not publicly, but he'd appreciate having a group of well-armed and trained men he can call on. To that end he can pull some strings, if you manage or want to contact him. If you haven't been sitting idle for three years, he hasn't either. Let's just say ascending to the throne without laying any groundwork in politics and connections is horrendously retarded and your friend is anything but that.
 
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Tigranes

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Guys, I think all this talk about a peaceful compromise through A isn't impossible, but it is a long shot and I think we're being a bit hopeful.

Why are these guys in a clandestine situation in the first place, even though the governor authorised their settlement? Because (1) most populations are xenophobic, (2) many traders will not deal with them for fear of Nippon authorities (not the pugilist), and (3) the Chinese authorities know making this arrangement public will cause an international incident.

So, in light of all that, (1) many pugilist leaders will not be so keen to openly broker an agreement which the Chinese people will disapprove of, the Chinese merchants will disapprove of, and the Chinese state will disapprove of. They will have to take a lot of risks to do this; (2) not to mention, if we go with A2, they will lose face publicly. It'd be like asking the US government to publicly compromise with Al-Qaeda due to a kidnapping incident, and form a compromise that the US corporations and public would hate. (3) This, by the way, makes any open arrangement, i.e. militia, difficult; any agreement would need to remain relatively under the radar, which adds another layer of difficulty.

In addition to these inherent difficulties in any compromise that the pugilists would agree to on paper, there is also the fact that we are not the best mediator for this job at all. The Zhou leader will be seen as letting his concern for his daughter override all the best interests of everyone else, and even worse, kowtowing to ZJ's apprentice again. The Songfeng will surely not trust us, but in addition to that, we can expect at least half the pugilists to actively distrust us and protest about any agreement where they lose face by negotiating with a kidnapper at the behest of ZJ's apprentice.

Baltika's last comment on the Shun card is, again, not impossible, but it's another tricky and risky move, adding even more processes we have to keep under cover and even more people's mouths to stay quiet.

I have no idea how C would even work, and B is probably going to make us pull an Ean, so I'm not sure what to vote yet. I just think the discussion so far is not accounting A realistically enough.
 

Baltika9

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Oh, A2 isn't peaches and cream by any means, that Shun theory was just a small aside. For one, it drags our rep with the orthodox world thrpugh the mud. Unless they have enough integrity to admit that they almost assaulted a village of exiled women, and children, and it was Zhang Jue's apprentice that saved them, we will be viewed as a backstabbing sumbitch by the orthodox world. However, that will also open doors, the Wudu and the Black Dragon Society seem like the types that appreciate those with the stones to do what needs to be done.
And the techniques we can cajole from the Ninja Master are pretty neat too. Also, these guys have the skills, smarts and leadership to go places. It's gonna hurt in the short term, but the payoff will be there in the future.
The problems with B and C are that they either don't solve the problem or allow a bloodbath to happen.
In the former case, these guys function as "noble bandits," take what they absolutely need and keep the others in check. Honestly, they're the lesser evil by far.
In the latter case, we're not getting to the mainland and back on time to really make a difference in the orthodox tactics, they're still walking into a trap and, with their plan, most of them will die before getting to the village. And then they'll fight a professional military force in close quarters.

Ugh, now we know the true meaning of 'ignorance is bliss.'
 

Kipeci

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Okay... I think I'll change my vote to B > C, though I can't help but feel that B is rather suicidal.
 

ScubaV

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I don't really like any of the options, so I'm not sure what to pick. That said, B sounds like a BAD END choice if I've ever heard one. Yes, Jing now knows Uncle Ninja is blind, but he definitely seems to outclass us in pure ability.

I'm torn between A2 and C. C sounds like the classic "fuck it" option, which is tempting. A2 seems like we set ourselves up as a scapegoat to achieve the desired results. I think a key question is whether or not this whole assault the pirates is prompted by conspirators to weaken the Empire's political situation or just a misunderstanding that the prefect can't be bothered to correct. If the former, I think a successful negotiation would be worth scapegoating ourselves. Unfortunately, we don't really have enough information to do more than guess.

I guess A2 > C for now.
 

Kipeci

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Yeah, actually, we never do seem to go for the 'fuck it' choices even when they would probably have us better off. In retrospect I should've voted to leave the island when we had the chance to be consistent with my earlier and continued thought that this is a massive derailing of our goals.

I mean, what did we even come here for? I don't mean to take the guys head, I mean, did we come here for the money? Did we come here for a chance of learning techniques? Did we come here for any purpose at all other than 'lol pirates', and if not, shouldn't we be going away now that we've had our fill? Not that that's an option by this point, but eh.
 

Elfberserker

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Messages
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B>A2. Bipolar vote, I choose you.

The problems with B and C are that they either don't solve the problem or allow a bloodbath to happen
...
In the latter case, we're not getting to the mainland and back on time to really make a difference in the orthodox tactics, they're still walking into a trap and, with their plan, most of them will die before getting to the village. And then they'll fight a professional military force in close quarters.

Keep in mind that in B, the pirate leader is only one who is holding their little group together. If he dies then they will be very disorganized and have major morale loss, so orthodox schools suffer lesser casualties when the actual fighting begins. Pirates would fall like house of cards, but we would take pretty big risk by taking his head.

I don't really like any of the options, so I'm not sure what to pick. That said, B sounds like a BAD END choice if I've ever heard one. Yes, Jing now knows Uncle Ninja is blind, but he definitely seems to outclass us in pure ability.

So far the ninja has only outclassed Jing when they were having stealth battle in area that ninja guy knows well and Jing hasn't even visited. I am confident that in pure battle potential Jing comes out top against ninja uncle, because we seem to have similar speed and strength but we have Southern maniacs killing techniques and pretty damn good short sword.
 

Baltika9

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So far the ninja has only outclassed Jing when they were having stealth battle in area that ninja guy knows well and Jing hasn't even visited. I am confident that in pure battle potential Jing comes out top against ninja uncle, because we seem to have similar speed and strength but we have Southern maniacs killing techniques and pretty damn good short sword.
Don't forget all the other retainers in the room, the two dudes with spears standing outside and the leader himself. We'll most likely get heavily injured in the fighting and with no wondermedic, well, things can get ugly.
I mean, what did we even come here for? I don't mean to take the guys head, I mean, did we come here for the money? Did we come here for a chance of learning techniques? Did we come here for any purpose at all other than 'lol pirates', and if not, shouldn't we be going away now that we've had our fill? Not that that's an option by this point, but eh.
I believe the main consensus was "lol, moneyz" and "lol, piratez." I'm pretty sure the old ninja can teach us some of his tricks and pointers, that would be pretty damn sweet.
 

Nevill

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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Tigranes said:
Why are these guys in a clandestine situation in the first place, even though the governor authorised their settlement? Because (1) most populations are xenophobic, (2) many traders will not deal with them for fear of Nippon authorities (not the pugilist), and (3) the Chinese authorities know making this arrangement public will cause an international incident.

So, in light of all that, (1) many pugilist leaders will not be so keen to openly broker an agreement which the Chinese people will disapprove of, the Chinese merchants will disapprove of, and the Chinese state will disapprove of. They will have to take a lot of risks to do this; (2) not to mention, if we go with A2, they will lose face publicly. It'd be like asking the US government to publicly compromise with Al-Qaeda due to a kidnapping incident, and form a compromise that the US corporations and public would hate. (3) This, by the way, makes any open arrangement, i.e. militia, difficult; any agreement would need to remain relatively under the radar, which adds another layer of difficulty.
You are downplaying the fact that the state have already let these guys squat on our lands, and is not willing to drive them back by force. When the pugilist leaders will know the reason behind the prefect's inaction, it may change things. Dealing with filthy pirates and outlaws is one thing, dealing with the refugees that have an official status is another.

Not making this arrangement public and refusing to deal with the consequences in any way have already caused more trouble that it was worth for the authorities. Recognizing them at this stage sounds like a better solution for them.

I don't think that negotiating will be all that difficult, considering how little Wo people need for it to succeed. Denying them that isn't something worth risking your life for.
 
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Baltika9

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Going A2. The rep hit with the orthodoxes will be a bitter pill to swallow, but I think it will pay off in the end. Miss Zhou better be grateful for this shit, I swear that every woman we meet drags us into one cooky situation or another. Worst part is, there is never any payoff from them.
 

Elfberserker

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Don't forget all the other retainers in the room, the two dudes with spears standing outside and the leader himself. We'll most likely get heavily injured in the fighting and with no wondermedic, well, things can get ugly.

Damn, I had forgotten about the spear dudes. Perhaps restrain is better part of valour.

I believe the main consensus was "lol, moneyz" and "lol, piratez." I'm pretty sure the old ninja can teach us some of his tricks and pointers, that would be pretty damn sweet

Going A2. The rep hit with the orthodoxes will be a bitter pill to swallow, but I think it will pay off in the end. Miss Zhou better be grateful for this shit, I swear that every woman we meet drags us into one cooky situation or another. Worst part is, there is never any payoff from them

Those were pretty damn good reasons to hunt normal pirates, but unfortunately Jing didn't have any way to know about these guys at the moment and with the challenge we dug deeper pit for ourselves. I am sure that ninja guy can teach us good technique and perhaps even skill point at stealth and who knows what else he could teach, but rep hit with orthodox schools will come back haunt us in near and long future. Current grandmasters are pretty old and don't have lot of years anymore, If we are only feared now then we will be despised and feared after we negotiad for pirates. Personally I admit that I still can't fathom how much deeper in the shit we have to face, if we negotiate.

Last but not the laest, don't dare to lump Cao'er with rest of those troublesome hags, she at least pays for her own rescue and more. If anything it's Jing who owns to her and we know what she wants:incline:
 
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Baltika9

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Those were pretty damn good reasons to hunt normal pirates, but unfortunately Jing didn't have any way to know about these guys at the moment and with the challenge we dug deeper pit for ourselves. I am sure that ninja guy can teach us good technique and perhaps even skill point at stealth and who knows what else he could teach, but rep hit with orthodox schools will come back haunt us in near and long future. Current grandmasters are pretty old and don't have lot of years anymore, If we are only feared now then we will be despised and feared after we negotiad for pirates. Personally I admit that I still can't fathom how much deeper in the shit we have to face, if we negotiate.
About that, the Orthodox world will never really love us in our entirety, that ship has long since sailed (somewhere between going unorthodox, killing Junior, vecoming Zhang's apprentice and being a total jackass at the tournament) and honestly, why do we want the respect of those hypocrites? At the very least, the Minamori will make for better and more dependable friends, someone to whom we can come to at any time if we have problems, and seek shelter/assistance (not to mention Shun would love to have them). The ninja uncle's tutelage is also a rather unique opportunity, I don't think Japanese tutelage is something we'll find in the near future without going out of our way.

We must also consider that while "bad" reputation closes some doors, it opens others: we can most likely make a bid to join the Black Dragon Society and get closer to the WiBs (and fix Scholarbro's "in love with a prostitute" problem, one way or the other), amd perhaps the Wudu Cult would appreciate our wiley ways.

Lastly, and this geys into moral fag teritorry, but it just seems douchey and completely un-Jing to allow a massacre to happen that will kill men, women and leave the children orphaned and/or dead in a few weeks (here's an idea, let's send them to Master Zhang's Tropical Summer Fun Camp and have him open a school :lol: ) and the assaulting pugilists, bottom line is the pirates know what the fuck they're doing in regards to tactics; kill such a cool guy like the clan leader and remove a useful security system from the province.

Between these guys and every other gang, they are the lesser evil by far, like an old-school Mafia family that takes over a district and pushes all the drug dealers and violent criminals out. There will always be crime and piracy, but I'd rather have them be doing it than anyone else, at least until Shun comes and gets them.

Throwing all of that away in exchange for what? A good word in from a pissant orthodox school? Huehueshan won't buy it, BJ won't stop being a dick, the little conspiracy they're planning won't change and the Frathouse won't really care (I daresay they would rather the Coalition be alive). If that means taking a rep hit, so be it. We can take it. Because we are the hero China deserves, but not the one it needs right now. And our hour will come, and in the meanwhile let the haters hate and the bros bro.
 

Jester

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
1,493
Vote A2

In memory of Cao Cao i guess.
 

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