Might and Magic Might & Magic X - Legacy

[Excidium]

Yeah the game has a lot of technical and design issues but it's still enjoyable enough. I give it a T for "tried"

And corridor forests.

This is something that I find really retarded. They should have done something more intelligent with those dragon blessings. For example, those forest paths should be always open, but with the earth dragon whatshername blessing you can walk through the dense wood tiles instead of zigzagging like a retard with the game dropping to 5 FPS everytime you turn the screen.

They explained (briefly) why they couldn't do that: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...pdate-the-rune-priest-dragon-blessings.89145/

I don't care for excuses. DO IT RIGHT

 

[Sceptic]

I think people are just going to have to disagree on this one. You think it's fundamentally broken. I think it has some minor flaws (mostly to do with encounter design, rather than mechanics, and a small world). You think it's literally impossible to succeed with inoptimal parties.

No I don't. Save-scumming will always allow you to circumvent anything. The problem (and one that wasn't there in the earlier games) is the overreliance on specific gimmicks, both on your parts and on the part of the enemy, and THAT is why I think it's fundamentally broken. Example number god knows how much: Skullcracker. Let's face it, this ability would be insanely overpowered if it allowed you to simply silence any caster and prevent them from casting spells.... so it will not work on any of the named unique spellcasters... WHICH IS THE ONLY TIME YOU'D EVER NEED IT ANYWAY. Same with the taunts. Even Celestial Armor, the be-all-end-all of the majority of the fights, will be silently and quietly bypassed by some of the bosses, because these bosses would be too easy otherwise.... and of course the bosses where it does get bypassed are the ones that deal 200-300 damage in one shot to a single character, in other words, once again the fights where the spell would be the most useful. It's a cheap way to create "challenge", it has NEVER existed in any previous M&M game, and it IS something that fundamentally breaks the game, and it appears associated with way too many spells and abilities to be a minor flaw. And when you couple these flaws with one-shot mechanics, too many fights turn into RNG "keep reloading until the first, ambush attack that cannot be prevented and cannot be protected against doesn't one-shot two of your characters". And when you couple all of THAT with the linear design of the game...

It's not one thing that's broken and that makes the whole game fall apart, it's the combination of all the little things, one leading directly into the other. But at the end of the day, the whole system does end up fundamentally broken.

ETA: He mentioned the party mechanics (direct taunts, melee spells, both of which I consider great additions) were taken from Wizardry. Wizardry: Forsaken Land (PS2) to be specific, if I'm remembering correctly.

I think the taunts are shit, and since I never played Forsaken Land (PC-only here) all it reminds me of WOW. But again, the problem isn't with the taunt per se, the problem is that the taunt is there to compensate for lack of positioning, and because the presence of the taunt makes things too easy, so it is randomly disabled in pretty much the only situations where it would be useful. It is this, the second part, that I have a problem with, whether with taunts, or Celestial Armor, or Skullcracker, or ranged combat, or everything else: the game introduces a shitton of elements that would make combat easier, then very purposefully disables them in any and all situtations where they would be useful, and the entirety of the game's "challenge" stems from this. Again, this is the exact opposite of good design.

 

[Infinitron]

the game introduces a shitton of elements that would make combat easier, then very purposefully disables them in any and all situtations where they would be useful, and the entirety of the game's "challenge" stems from this. Again, this is the exact opposite of good design.

I've always thought this sort of thing was VERY common in RPGs, eg, bosses with high magic resistance in D&D-based CRPGs. Your mage's awesome spell repertoire suddenly becomes useless.

It's frustrating, I guess, but I'm not one to reject anything that makes a game harder, personally.

 

[Cyberarmy]

My only problems with this game are horrible ranged capabilites of my party, terrible(read, none) optimization and music bugs... That shitty battle music never ends in acts 2 till I reload... Some party barks are annoying (especially that bath one, won't selecting cynical again) and I'd hoped for more portraits but these are minor.
I'm having a blast with my dwarven team, they are not happy sharing axes Dropped crossbows at expert for scout thanks to horrible ranged mechanics and ambushes.

 

[Zeriel]

Lord only knows. The Codex makes my head spin. What is terrible design to one person is perfect to someone else, and vice versa.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I've always thought this sort of thing is VERY common in RPGs, ie, bosses with high magic resistance in D&D-based CRPGs. Your mage's awesome spell repertoire suddenly becomes useless.

They usually aren't shameless enough to give them full immunity to just about everything, but high resistances. Not to mention that they often have varying degrees of immunities that have to be discovered or deduced, and not just "BOSS MONSTER = IMMUNITY TO ALL STUFF!"

Plus, all those D&D CRPGs usually have a truckton of other tools at their disposal, which don't get horribly gimped by sudden arbitrary immunities.

 

[Excidium]

The immunities usually make sense, like undead being immune to poison and agony. As for bosses, they are immune to shit because CC spells are balanced around being used in fights with multiple enemies, it would kill the entire challenge to sleep a boss then heal everyone and drink mana potions and rebuff then wake him up.

 

[Decado]

That shitty battle music never ends in acts 2 till I reload...

Yeah, I couldn't fucking take it anymore. I turned music off completely.

 

[Infinitron]

I've always thought this sort of thing is VERY common in RPGs, ie, bosses with high magic resistance in D&D-based CRPGs. Your mage's awesome spell repertoire suddenly becomes useless.

They usually aren't shameless enough to give them full immunity to just about everything, but high resistances. Not to mention that they often have varying degrees of immunities that have to be discovered or deduced, and not just "BOSS MONSTER = IMMUNITY TO ALL STUFF!"

Plus, all those D&D CRPGs usually have a truckton of other tools at their disposal, which don't get horribly gimped by sudden arbitrary immunities.

Like I said, I personally think it's...ill-advised in this day and age to complain about anything that makes a game harder.

And "potion spam", too. I've been playing RPGs where potions are nothing but a crutch for the worst players and you almost never need to drink one, for the past decade. Potion spam? You mean I actually need to DRINK potions? I say bring it on.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

That shitty battle music never ends in acts 2 till I reload

It's amazing how that small bug made dungeon exploration really stressful and not fun.
Reminded me of the importance of proper sound design.

 

[Cyberarmy]

That shitty battle music never ends in acts 2 till I reload...

Yeah, I couldn't fucking take it anymore. I turned music off completely.

Well, mine continues to sing even after I turned it down Probably need to do it from main menu like graphical options.

Edit:
Spaceman Spiff
Strangely it only began after entering elemantal forge, had no problem in act 1 ever.

 

[Zeriel]

I've always thought this sort of thing is VERY common in RPGs, ie, bosses with high magic resistance in D&D-based CRPGs. Your mage's awesome spell repertoire suddenly becomes useless.

They usually aren't shameless enough to give them full immunity to just about everything, but high resistances. Not to mention that they often have varying degrees of immunities that have to be discovered or deduced, and not just "BOSS MONSTER = IMMUNITY TO ALL STUFF!"

Plus, all those D&D CRPGs usually have a truckton of other tools at their disposal, which don't get horribly gimped by sudden arbitrary immunities.

I feel like people are overstating the prevalence of taunt immunities. Most bosses in the game can be taunted, even though they say they are immune to "mind manipulation". The only stuff I noticed being straight up immune to taunts was normal, non-boss undead creatures and the occasional one-off stuff like elite coral priestesses.

 

[cvv]

What else?
No customized haircuts? No vanity pets?

Seriously? fuck off.

Damn right seriously. Are ya'll for real here? Decorative doors? Low barriers? Corridor forrests? In a fucking retro blobber?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Like I said, I personally think it's...ill-advised in this day and age to complain about anything that makes a game harder.

But that's just the goddamned friggin problem right there, it DOESN'T make anything harder! When celestial armour + regeneration + potion spamming is the be all end all of supposedly tacticool combat, it quickly devolves into a mind-numbingly boring routine that achieves the exact opposite effect of what you wanted, and everything just comes down to finding out the "optimal" way of handling things. It's exactly like KOTOR's master-level force lightning spam to get rid of everything instantly, just taken to a whole different level.

Are ya'll for real here? Decorative doors? Low barriers? Corridor forrests? In a fucking retro blobber?

You can right fuck off.

 

[Grunker]

And corridor forests.

I have no issues with corridor forests. Reminds me of Lands of Lore.

What else?
No customized haircuts? No vanity pets?

Seriously? fuck off.

Damn right seriously. Are ya'll for real here? Decorative doors? Low barriers? Corridor forrests? In a fucking retro blobber?

Hey, dude, I have no isseus with any of that cosmetic shit. My issue is because decorative doors make me fiddle around with shit to figure out whether it is a real door or Graphics Asset B. The trouble is further augmented by some doors looking like decorative doors but then being important.

I have no issues missing shit because I don't figure it out, but being unsure if something is a real door or, in actuality, a wall, is just crappy.

One thing about this game that really needs to fuck right the fuck back to where it came from: decorative doors

you mean those doors in town that looks like you can enter them but you can't?

because of them I pretty much play "town time" entirely through the minimap.

yuuurp

Sceptic

I think people are just going to have to disagree on this one. You think it's fundamentally broken. I think it has some minor flaws (mostly to do with encounter design, rather than mechanics, and a small world). You think it's literally impossible to succeed with inoptimal parties. I know for a fact you can take any shitty old party and go through the game on Warrior difficulty. I can already anticipate the counter-argument (you shouldn't have to do that, great players can defeat any challenge!), but it's no different from the thing you think great in earlier titles (playing MM6 with a bad party is the exact same thing, player triumphing over bad balance).

ETA: He mentioned the party mechanics (direct taunts, melee spells, both of which I consider great additions) were taken from Wizardry. Wizardry: Forsaken Land (PS2) to be specific, if I'm remembering correctly.

agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

 

[Infinitron]

But that's just the goddamned friggin problem right there, it DOESN'T make anything harder! When celestial armour + regeneration + potion spamming is the be all end all of supposedly tacticool combat, it quickly devolves into a mind-numbingly boring routine that achieves the exact opposite effect of what you wanted, and everything just comes down to finding out the "optimal" way of handling things. It's exactly like KOTOR's master-level force lightning spam to get rid of everything instantly, just taken to a whole different level.

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I replied to. You were complaining about boss immunities. Immunities make the bosses harder to defeat.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Hardly. Just more tedious. Like I said

Oh noes, a brigand boss monster!

heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion

Congratulations!!! You have succeeded in the dealings of the tacticool!

And it was basically the same for the naga boss at the lighthouse.

 

[Grunker]

i see you must have hated every single might and magic game ever darth roxor

fake edit: oh yeah, you always post that pick comparing m&m to a bicycle... did you expect any different from this one, or are you just here to complain about what you expected?

 

[Darth Roxor]

...

 

[Zeriel]

Guys, lets hug it out.

 

[Infinitron]

Hardly. Just more tedious. Like I said

Oh noes, a brigand boss monster!

heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion

Congratulations!!! You have succeeded in the dealings of the tacticool!

And it was basically the same for the naga boss at the lighthouse.

Well, there aren't actually many RPGs where victory by attrition isn't a valid (if boring) tactic.

In JRPGs they try to get around that by giving bosses mega-attacks that they use occasionally that are very likely to wipe your healer out and take your healing out of sync.

 

[Excidium]

MMX bosses do that a lot.

 

[Darth Roxor]

In fact, funny thing, I was telling a bro about mmx and his reply was precisely "uhm, this sounds like a jRPG"

So when is this gonna be moved to the proper subforum? Jaesun plz

 

[Grunker]

...

What, I'm not right? You complain about spamming the same attacks, combat not being ultradeep at early levels. That's every Might & Magic game I've ever played. This game offers me a lot more choices on early levels than I used to have. I can't complain. If you do, my verdict is that you seem to be looking for a different game.

 

[cvv]

Hey, dude, I have no isseus with any of that cosmetic shit. My issue is because decorative doors make me fiddle around with shit to figure out whether it is a real door or Graphics Asset B. The trouble is further augmented by some doors looking like decorative doors but then being important.

All real doors show up on a minimap as a house, a shop etc.