MMOs died out?

[Yaar Podshipnik]

PVP is where the fun is, and you can't really solve unpredictable humans - no amount of discord chats or wikis will help there.

That, or some kind of really dynamic content engine where the world shifts intelligently to player action(s). The kind of thing where empty zones will slowly increase in danger (and loot) until they bleed out into other zones and start to threaten the "safe" areas in the game, a world where the environment figures out where players are massing and sends AOE casters to take them out en masse. Where the game AI at least looks like it's trying to win and it's not just an amusement park. I don't know if such a thing is possible, but I'd love to try it.

That would be awesome, but it would appeal to the same kind of people who like danger of pvp anyway. It would induce cries of "muh safezones" from carebears. You can see this with EVE. During Triglavian invasion fleets of Trigs would camp gates and engage everyone without standings to them. Remedy for that was to choose another route (that later in the invasion became really hard), or get a single small tick of standings with trigs (you could do that in free ship you get in game). This little amount of extra danger, that encroached on previously "safe" space, caused so much drama and whining on the forums... And just look up "EVE Blackout" to see how supposedly hardcore elite nullsec players regarded to a bit of shakeup in their little corner of the galaxy.
I also want to say one thing in the defense of the whiners - CCP did absolutely shit job with communicating the Triglavian threat, didn't provide almost any in-game tools (initially) to facilitate not bumping into them, and made some really shitty mechanic decisions (i.e. Steve, however awesome he might be, was so fucking op. It was fun to hear laser go bzzt though). On the other hand, blackout was communicated clearly, both scope and duration of it, though without too much of a notice. Those whiners have no excuse and deserve to be obliterated.

 

[Norfleet]

That's not a problem of Discords or wikis, but with MMOs being theme parks and being able to be solved. All the PVE in EVE is "solved", so by not reading up on wiki or getting info from other players you're gimping yourself. PVP is where the fun is, and you can't really solve unpredictable humans - no amount of discord chats or wikis will help there.

From what I hear, ship combat in Eve is actually pretty weak and dry, with very little in the way of direct player involvement, which is probably why it has become "solved", as there is little in the way of player skill involved.

That would be awesome, but it would appeal to the same kind of people who like danger of pvp anyway. It would induce cries of "muh safezones" from carebears. You can see this with EVE. During Triglavian invasion fleets of Trigs would camp gates and engage everyone without standings to them. Remedy for that was to choose another route (that later in the invasion became really hard), or get a single small tick of standings with trigs (you could do that in free ship you get in game). This little amount of extra danger, that encroached on previously "safe" space, caused so much drama and whining on the forums... And just look up "EVE Blackout" to see how supposedly hardcore elite nullsec players regarded to a bit of shakeup in their little corner of the galaxy.

Players are a deeply conservative lot and their expectations for gameplay often set rather hard by what they've already experienced for years: Being suddenly invaded by an effectively infinite horde of NPCs falls outside the scope of a game in which formerly all major conflict was player-driven. When this is costing players resources they need to actually defend themselves from the other players, they might predictably react badly to it.

If this kind of thing had been part of the game's core design from the beginning, it would not have been seen as a jarring tone shift, since players would have already been accustomed to dealing with "hazard NPCs".

 

[ItsChon]

PVP is where the fun is, and you can't really solve unpredictable humans - no amount of discord chats or wikis will help there.

That, or some kind of really dynamic content engine where the world shifts intelligently to player action(s). The kind of thing where empty zones will slowly increase in danger (and loot) until they bleed out into other zones and start to threaten the "safe" areas in the game, a world where the environment figures out where players are massing and sends AOE casters to take them out en masse. Where the game AI at least looks like it's trying to win and it's not just an amusement park. I don't know if such a thing is possible, but I'd love to try it.

That would be awesome, but it would appeal to the same kind of people who like danger of pvp anyway. It would induce cries of "muh safezones" from carebears. You can see this with EVE. During Triglavian invasion fleets of Trigs would camp gates and engage everyone without standings to them. Remedy for that was to choose another route (that later in the invasion became really hard), or get a single small tick of standings with trigs (you could do that in free ship you get in game). This little amount of extra danger, that encroached on previously "safe" space, caused so much drama and whining on the forums... And just look up "EVE Blackout" to see how supposedly hardcore elite nullsec players regarded to a bit of shakeup in their little corner of the galaxy.
I also want to say one thing in the defense of the whiners - CCP did absolutely shit job with communicating the Triglavian threat, didn't provide almost any in-game tools (initially) to facilitate not bumping into them, and made some really shitty mechanic decisions (i.e. Steve, however awesome he might be, was so fucking op. It was fun to hear laser go bzzt though). On the other hand, blackout was communicated clearly, both scope and duration of it, though without too much of a notice. Those whiners have no excuse and deserve to be obliterated.

Ashes of Creation has a similar concept to this as one of its core mechanics. Game might be vaporware but there are some youtube videos that explain what the project is about and they do get you a bit hypes even though your brain is telling you that there's no way they can deliver on their promises.

Honestly, one of the best MMORPGs right now is probably OSRS unironically. Problem is you need a membership which kind of deincentivizes me to play, as I don't want to grind out the necessary mil needed to buy a bound in F2P, just so I can get premium and have to make sure I'm always grinding enough gold to keep up the membership.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

PVP is where the fun is, and you can't really solve unpredictable humans - no amount of discord chats or wikis will help there.

That, or some kind of really dynamic content engine where the world shifts intelligently to player action(s). The kind of thing where empty zones will slowly increase in danger (and loot) until they bleed out into other zones and start to threaten the "safe" areas in the game, a world where the environment figures out where players are massing and sends AOE casters to take them out en masse. Where the game AI at least looks like it's trying to win and it's not just an amusement park. I don't know if such a thing is possible, but I'd love to try it.

That would be awesome, but it would appeal to the same kind of people who like danger of pvp anyway. It would induce cries of "muh safezones" from carebears. You can see this with EVE. During Triglavian invasion fleets of Trigs would camp gates and engage everyone without standings to them. Remedy for that was to choose another route (that later in the invasion became really hard), or get a single small tick of standings with trigs (you could do that in free ship you get in game). This little amount of extra danger, that encroached on previously "safe" space, caused so much drama and whining on the forums... And just look up "EVE Blackout" to see how supposedly hardcore elite nullsec players regarded to a bit of shakeup in their little corner of the galaxy.
I also want to say one thing in the defense of the whiners - CCP did absolutely shit job with communicating the Triglavian threat, didn't provide almost any in-game tools (initially) to facilitate not bumping into them, and made some really shitty mechanic decisions (i.e. Steve, however awesome he might be, was so fucking op. It was fun to hear laser go bzzt though). On the other hand, blackout was communicated clearly, both scope and duration of it, though without too much of a notice. Those whiners have no excuse and deserve to be obliterated.

Ashes of Creation has a similar concept to this as one of its core mechanics. Game might be vaporware but there are some youtube videos that explain what the project is about and they do get you a bit hypes even though your brain is telling you that there's no way they can deliver on their promises.

Honestly, one of the best MMORPGs right now is probably OSRS unironically. Problem is you need a membership which kind of deincentivizes me to play, as I don't want to grind out the necessary mil needed to buy a bound in F2P, just so I can get premium and have to make sure I'm always grinding enough gold to keep up the membership.

What exactly about AoC is undeliverable? I was playing in their alpha in December, the node system works. The node changing based on which race levels the node works. The events that happen when you level one node over another one work. The PvP that happens as you try to de-level some other node to make yours level works. That's the whole game. It isn't even all that ambitious. The game is mostly PvP focused. That's the endgame basically. But the PvE is fun too because depending on how the nodes are leveled you get different enemies, quests, and different zone progression. It's pretty cool. They got another Alpha test in March if my senile old memory serves. So I can update everyone on that one too.

 

[Enkidu]

What exactly about AoC is undeliverable? I was playing in their alpha in December, the node system works. The node changing based on which race levels the node works. The events that happen when you level one node over another one work. The PvP that happens as you try to de-level some other node to make yours level works. That's the whole game. It isn't even all that ambitious. The game is mostly PvP focused. That's the endgame basically. But the PvE is fun too because depending on how the nodes are leveled you get different enemies, quests, and different zone progression. It's pretty cool. They got another Alpha test in March if my senile old memory serves. So I can update everyone on that one too.

Personally my own grievances with AoC was that their proposal is pretty much the same from the Everquest vaporware, which was of course, not delivered.
But its nice to know that shit is progressing properly. i'm not informed about the game since it was announced back then.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

What exactly about AoC is undeliverable? I was playing in their alpha in December, the node system works. The node changing based on which race levels the node works. The events that happen when you level one node over another one work. The PvP that happens as you try to de-level some other node to make yours level works. That's the whole game. It isn't even all that ambitious. The game is mostly PvP focused. That's the endgame basically. But the PvE is fun too because depending on how the nodes are leveled you get different enemies, quests, and different zone progression. It's pretty cool. They got another Alpha test in March if my senile old memory serves. So I can update everyone on that one too.

Personally my own grievances with AoC was that their proposal is pretty much the same from the Everquest vaporware, which was of course, not delivered.
But its nice to know that shit is progressing properly. i'm not informed about the game since it was announced back then.

Updates have been fairly consistent. At least one monthly written update, a monthly stream with gameplay, and standalone gameplay videos showing things working in engine. I can tell you it's not smoke and mirrors because it's the exact game I played in December.

I think the big issue going forward for the game is all the You Tubers hyping Ashes up as the next WoW. And people expecting a game similar to that when it's much more of a niche sandbox and PvP focused experience. The lead dev Stephen Sharif was a massive Archeage and Lineage 2 player and his intent is to make Archeage but good essentially. It's going to be a much more hardcore experience than MMO kiddies of nowadays are used to. Cleaving much closer to the more open games like EQ and SWG. The node system essentially forces you to protect your shit. If your node gets deleveled, your house and various other things get deleveled too. To me that's thrilling. It means unlike say Planetside 2, the stuff you're fighting over has meaning. Intrigue and war will actually matter. It solves the Archeage problem of people buying land and sitting on it. And also means there's always going to be a chance to carve out your own spot. But WoW kiddies who want an invincible character with no consequences to their actions WILL NOT like this game. There's going to be a test under NDA in less than a week. And another test in March with no NDA. So I'll probably record a few videos on AoC for the Dex.

AoC MIGHT resurect the genre. But not as theme park MMOs. Not as WoW clones. Or it might just be it's own thing and AAA bugmen don't do anything with this because it's too much effort for much less returns than they're used to.

 

[Rahdulan]

MMOs lost their way, led astray by WoW gold. You see, as early MMO devs realized very astutely, the real MMO potential always lay in the social and interactive aspects. In those early days, games like MUDs, UO, and SWG were built around social interaction. Even more themepark MMOs, like Everquest, still had mechanics which encouraged social interaction and made it mandatory.

Then WoW happened, and over time, eliminated social interaction almost completely from the genre. Cross-server dungeon LFG queues, phasing, instanced content, battlegrounds/arena PvP (with queues), etc. But it did so well financially, that all other MMO devs/publishers didn't care that it was essentially killing off the genre, they blindly followed along like blind lemmings, jumping off the cliff of WoW's success.

All those things were implemented because with WoW and games beyond the net was cast wide to get that mythical "mainstream audience" over core MMORPG players. Blizzard brought Warcraft fans into the genre who wanted more of their favorite franchise, for example. In essence, problems with MMORPGs began when they branched out beyond initial No Life King audience where low player numbers played straight into things like dedicated and connected community, high engagement, etc. You know very well if today you did something like needing a player with entertainment skills to heal your lingering Mind damage the way SWG did modern players would throw a shitfit about being forcefully made dependent on others.

 

[ItsChon]

There's going to be a test under NDA in less than a week. And another test in March with no NDA. So I'll probably record a few videos on AoC for the Dex.

Any way to apply for possible Alpha 1 status coming up in April?

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

There's going to be a test under NDA in less than a week. And another test in March with no NDA. So I'll probably record a few videos on AoC for the Dex.

Any way to apply for possible Alpha 1 status coming up in April?

I would recommend saving your money. Alpha 1 access was quite expensive. They did close down the pledge tier for Alpha 1 access but recently put it back up with new bonuses, game time, and cosmetics. Then quickly took it down again due to demand. They want more players to stress test the servers compared to the first Alpha 1 test but I think got a lot more backers this time around then they were expecting. The next closest one is Alpha 2. Which is still $375. With fancy aristocrat cosmetics bundled in. There were plenty of people on when I played and the server ran like butter. I'm not kidding, smoothest MMO servers I've ever seen with at least 200 people on screen at once. (they might have knicked some SOE servers and some Planetside server tech due to many EQNext devs going to Intrepid but that's just a rumour.) However, I don't recommend buying the Alpha 1 packs if you're expecting early access to the game. You do actually have to test things. Certain things are brought online and taken off per day so you can test. Okay fine we mostly ignored Stephen's orders until he spawned a dragon for us to take down and that was fun. But still it's a proper alpha. Not a weird AAA alpha.

If you get one of the cheaper beta packages you still get some nice stuff and a decent amount of game time. But for most people I just recommend the basic pack and waiting for the game to come out. Or just waiting for the game to buy in. Use my referral code if you want to join the cult. Stay away from the discord though. Lots of cucks and white knights.

 

[gurugeorge]

PVP in mmos is an outdated concept. If I want PVP ill play MOBA. PVP in mmos is either unbalanced arena with very few players or it is based on ganking. Ganking is griefing, it's a sad thing which no one except gankers like. GOP-STOP.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=03usuu5Osrs

Hrm, I wouldn't say PvP is an outdated concept, I'd say rather that it's an acquired taste. I used to be a PvE-only player, then I played EVE Online for a while and that got me over the adrenaline jag. Now I can play PvP in any game. Though I still prefer PvE - reason being it's more relaxing, and I play these types of games to relax, and to be challenged only within the limits of that relaxation (e.g. having to remember a rotation or the boss' moves, when the trash mobs come in, etc.). But it's nice to have PvP there in a game, for when one wants a more invigorating experience. In fact PvP in MMOs makes them even more "MMO-ey," a virtual world feels much more realistic and alive when danger is afoot, and that makes companionship and trust all the more precious too.

************

Apropos nothing and speaking to the general audience: I've been playing WoW classic for the past few days, and it's really quite enjoyable overall. I've already had 3 nice "moments" meeting someone in the wild and teaming up for a bit. That's the best thing about MMOs, those moments, but you can't have them unless you have content that's hard enough so that it's difficult to do (at least in some places) without teaming up with somebody, or a few people. And WoW Classic seems to have been designed more in that vein than in the "easy levelling so that you get to endgame asap" mode that MMOs (including WoW itself) seem to slip into when they become mature.

 

[kreight]

Danger can be afoot even without pvp. Some mmos offered and still offer challenging raid content.

There's nothing to acquire in EVE pvp. Jump through the gate and tighten your buttocks in a hope that some gang is/not waiting for you on the other side.

If you have ever been gopstopped, you'd know just the feeling. I have. You need to have a certain mentality to gang bang others. It's like an army, you've been fucked by superior officers. Now you are the superior officer and you can fuck others. It's fucking boring and juvenile.

 

[thesecret1]

AoC MIGHT resurect the genre.

If it delivers on at least half the things it promised (and executes them non-shittily), I'll happily jump in and dedicate unreasonable amounts of time to it. But honestly, it sounds too good to be true.

All those things were implemented because with WoW and games beyond the net was cast wide to get that mythical "mainstream audience" over core MMORPG players. Blizzard brought Warcraft fans into the genre who wanted more of their favorite franchise, for example. In essence, problems with MMORPGs began when they branched out beyond initial No Life King audience where low player numbers played straight into things like dedicated and connected community, high engagement, etc. You know very well if today you did something like needing a player with entertainment skills to heal your lingering Mind damage the way SWG did modern players would throw a shitfit about being forcefully made dependent on others.

Runescape used to achieve high player interaction even with mainstream audience by making trading between players the only viable way to get ahead. It was not the same as having a dedicated and connected community, but it did work and created a pretty living world in its own way. Then Jagex fucked it all up in order to prevent retards from getting scammed out of their virtual money, and it all went to shit soon after.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

raids are dumb
the concept is fine if it was just one activity out of many, but every MMO seems to make their game entirely about them and nothing else and it's garbage

 

[kreight]

Raids are for tryhards mostly, no need to do them if it's not some classic theme park a la wow. Lost Ark raids are different. You don't have to do them, they are optional but you can get some rewards from them.

And LA raids are indeed hard.

 

[J1M]

raids are dumb
the concept is fine if it was just one activity out of many, but every MMO seems to make their game entirely about them and nothing else and it's garbage

I think it is weird to make the exact same type of content the cornerstone of every expansion pack.

Presumably, you want players for a decade so why not give them some variety that feeds into meaningful rewards? WoW is just now starting to accept this, but instead of injecting variety they decided to make 3 valid paths for endgame progression. (Raids, infinitely scaling dungeons, instanced pvp)

I guess they are hoping people will bounce around between those 3 options instead of leaving when it gets too repetitive. But I have to imagine that interest would be higher if they didn't assume raiding was where 80% of the endgame resources would be spent every single expansion/patch.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

raids are dumb
the concept is fine if it was just one activity out of many, but every MMO seems to make their game entirely about them and nothing else and it's garbage

I think it is weird to make the exact same type of content the cornerstone of every expansion pack.

Presumably, you want players for a decade so why not give them some variety that feeds into meaningful rewards? WoW is just now starting to accept this, but instead of injecting variety they decided to make 3 valid paths for endgame progression. (Raids, infinitely scaling dungeons, instanced pvp)

I guess they are hoping people will bounce around between those 3 options instead of leaving when it gets too repetitive. But I have to imagine that interest would be higher if they didn't assume raiding was where 80% of the endgame resources would be spent every single expansion/patch.

Dungeons and raids are still to some extent the same kind of content though(but not quite, I don't enjoy the cat herding of raids.) I want legitimately different content in an MMO, content that not everyone will like. Which is strange, because many people don't like raiding but it's just accepted as the thing that should get the most focus.
An example of 'different content' is something like LotRO's skirmishes and epic battles to play through historic lord of the rings events. EQ's new overseer system falls under this as well, but arguably a bit too divorced from the game itself(would be better if you had to recruit agents from the world, etc.,)
Star Trek Online has a very in-depth duty officer system where you assign officers on various tasks, requiring you to scour the galaxy(and engage in trading) for tasks/agents. It's a shame that they let this system rot, it was extremely well done and fit right at home in a Star Trek-themed game where you're a ship captain.

cRPGs often have a lot of content to engage in other than "just kill stuff in hallways 4eva", MMORPGs feel more like MMOJRPGs.

[edit]
And modern MMOs barely ever have quests that expect you to take more than 5 steps to solve it. Traveling halfway across the world? Forget about it. Lame as hell.
We'll never get the feeling of traveling from qeynos to freeport at low level again. Feels bad.

 

[luj1]

Is Pantheon dead?

 

[Tavernking]

Is Pantheon dead?

I'll put it down if it isn't.

 

[gurugeorge]

Danger can be afoot even without pvp. Some mmos offered and still offer challenging raid content.

There's nothing to acquire in EVE pvp. Jump through the gate and tighten your buttocks in a hope that some gang is/not waiting for you on the other side.

If you have ever been gopstopped, you'd know just the feeling. I have. You need to have a certain mentality to gang bang others. It's like an army, you've been fucked by superior officers. Now you are the superior officer and you can fuck others. It's fucking boring and juvenile.

Well that's looking at it a bit pejoratively. Yeah, for some it's like that, but there are tons of corporations out there where people are having fun working as teams doing various bits and bobs.

The main draw of MMOs is dealing with people - either co-operating with them or competing with them. Camaraderie in the virtual world is enjoyable and often cute because of the graphics and mise-en-scene. And you get the most camaraderie where trust is the most highly-valued commodity, i.e. in an open PvP context. Next best is complex PvE that requires a bit of commitment (big dungeons, raids, interesting quest chains, etc.). Next best is chance meetings in the open world.

 

[gurugeorge]

What I'd like to see is a more hyper-realistic but also highly stylized type of art design, like Keith Parkinson style. Baldur's Gate 3 seems to have some of that look down - one wants that but without the degeneracy. That in an MMO would be perfect for me.

I remember Vanguard: Saga of Heroes was almost like that, in its day; the Unreal engine graphics were really quite decent (for the time) when cranked up to the max - trouble is few people had the rig when it first came out. Lots of detail in the armor, in the world furniture, the spell fx, etc. I played it quite a bit once I had a rig that could handle it. One often got quite a strong sense of presence from the detailed real-ish graphics and fantasy tropes, combined with human interaction.

Actually even Everquest 2 tried for a bit of that Parkinsonesque hyper-realism, and succeeded in places (that's actually quite a decent MMO still).

It's a style that's not quite pure realism, but more like a highly detailed stylization that looks kind of real, is what I'm getting at.

Black Desert also has a bit of it too, and shows it's quite possible for an MMO to do it; but of course there it's in the context of a more Asian feel than one would prefer, overall.

 

[kreight]

there are dozens of mmos with all sorts of styles. Style is the last thing an mmo needs. Gameplay is what matters.

Realistic shit was in Secret World for example.

 

[gurugeorge]

there are dozens of mmos with all sorts of styles. Style is the last thing an mmo needs. Gameplay is what matters.

Realistic shit was in Secret World for example.

The gameplay for MMOs is a bit Pavlovian though, it's a formula isn't it? And it can't help being like that. It's like all dance records having a run up to a climax, a breakdown, and a final climax, it just comes with the territory. It's the style (and the lore) that separates MMOs - whether one finds this or that virtual world (and its lore) charming in some way, whether it feels like a place it feels good to be in virtually, for a while. The quality of the story or stories also lives here. It can be a bit generic, but too generic or too throwaway makes one disinclined to spend any more time in the virtual world.

Then, next most important is how easy it is to form community in the game. The chute must be smoothed for anything that involves people making friends, teaming up in the world, etc. And having a reason to do so (which falls under the gameplay).

Then I think, yeah, the particular flavour of the gameplay is important - it has to depart from the necessary formulae in interesting ways that are still also addictive.

Next is icons. Icons have to be good, they have to be evocative of the things and easily noticeable (also cooldown graphics have to be well-designed). You're looking at them and using them for information a lot of the time, so they have to be miniature works of art in some way (not necessarily detailed, but crisp in some way).

Then animations, audio, fx. All the stuff you're spending a lot of time with, it has to be high quality.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'd play a game with stick figures if it had good content.

 

[gurugeorge]

I'd play a game with stick figures if it had good content.

Hey, people used to play MMOs in just text.

But we expect a little more from them nowadays.

 

[kreight]

One is talking about interactions between players and pvp, another is talking about cool single player campaign story. Oh, it's the same guy, right?

This duality is the shit that hampers mmos. Devs want to sit on two chairs. There's pvp crowd and then there's pve crowd. Ideally you'd want to keep them both happy which is a rather challenging task.

Some survival MMOs kinda dropped this duality leaving pve story campaign behind and offering pure player created pve content mixed with pvp in gopstop style.