NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

[Gargaune]

Why is Swordflight dev sticking with NWN1 instead of 2? How do the two compare?

Barely. Obsidian's implementation of the Electron toolset is much more sophisticated than BioWare's original Aurora, it's a generational evolution, but it's also far, far less acessible as a result - it takes much more effort to construct spaces and gameplay to that visual standard. Obsidian also took the reverse approach to BioWare and traditionally prioritised NWN2 as a game rather than a platform, and the toolset interface is poorly designed in terms of ergonomics. To top it all off, it was put together with string and duct tape, rendering some components of it non-functional on modern systems.

But if you want the author's opinion, you can ask him - rogueknight333.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

How do the two compare?

What our lad Gargaune said, and moreover, nwn is 3e and nwn2 is 3.5e.

 

[rogueknight333]

Why is Swordflight dev sticking with NWN1 instead of 2? How do the two compare?

The NWN2 toolset is greatly inferior to NWN's. It has kludgy, not very user-friendly systems and is rather buggy. The biggest problem though is that in NWN one builds areas by mixing and matching pre-fab tiles, but in NWN2 one has to actually paint and sculpt the terrain. In theory, that allows one greater freedom to design an area exactly to one's specifications, as well as, theoretically, producing better looking areas, but it comes at the cost that making an area with the NWN2 toolset takes 10 times as long (at least - that is a very conservative estimate) as making an area in NWN1. I do not have that kind of time. The only thing that makes a project as absurdly massive as Swordflight practical at all is how exceptionally quick and easy to use the NWN toolset is.

Aside from the toolset, I also do not much care for the actual gameplay in NWN2. The game itself also has a lot of kludgy, over-complicated, buggy systems. NWN2 also added a huge mass of additional prestige classes, feats, etc. that completely broke any semblance of game balance and made it far more difficult to design encounters that would be reasonably challenging yet still possible for any reasonable build.

 

[Desiderius]

Do prestige classes trigger the multiclassing penalty in NWN1?

 

[Gargaune]

Do prestige classes trigger the multiclassing penalty in NWN1?

Nope:

A prestige class is not counted for the multiclass penalty.

 

[Desiderius]

Thoughts on Shadowdancer?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

It has 1 useful ability. Hide in Plain sight. which you get at lvl1.

 

[Desiderius]

I still think of the Gold Box version whenever I hear the name Neverwinter Nights. Always meant to try it out but never got around to it. Never played MMO until Guild Wars (other then dial-up MUDs) despite the Gold Box NWN being pretty strongly hyped at the time along with UO.

 

[Desiderius]

Playing Swordflight.

So I’ve got my very solid Jack of all skillz (12/16/12/14/12/12) Elf Rogue 1 lvl and after some Parry misadventures have settled into Longbow sniping.

Wiz level at lvl 2 looks awfully tempting for Badger summons and various buffs (and Lore) but Panther familiar is surprisingly fragile and missing all those class skills. Planning to alternate levels for awhile.

Am I headed for a train wreck?

 

[rogueknight333]

Wiz level at lvl 2 looks awfully tempting for Badger summons and various buffs (and Lore) but Panther familiar is surprisingly fragile and missing all those class skills. Planning to alternate levels for awhile.

If you want the character to be primarily a Rogue (which seems to be the case, given your stats), taking a handful of Wizard levels is probably not worth it. If instead you are going to eventually make a build that is primarily a Wizard, with only a handful of Rogue levels for skill dumps, that could work. Ideally such a build would have started with more Intelligence, but you could still make it work if you put everything into INT from now on. Generally, you should only take levels in one of the major caster classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid) if you are planning to take a lot of levels, since the power of spells is determined by caster level, and being able to cast a small handful of low-level spells will be almost useless against high level enemies (so long term, those levels are a waste). This is in contrast with Rogue or Warrior builds, which usually benefit from being heavily multi-classed (with each other or various Prestige classes). As a Rogue, furthermore, you can invest in Use Magic Device and gain the ability to cast a lot of low level spells anyway from Wands and such.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, not looking to nuke stuff or beat saves, just get access to some buffs and summons and enough Lore to identify random loot. Action economy will be mostly Bow sneaks.

Just worried my familiar and summons will get owned.

 

[rogueknight333]

They are practically certain to get owned. Probably the only way you could avoid that is to go all in on summons as a tactic, buff them with everything you have, and commit to healing them in combat. Incidentally, lots of players seem not realize this, but it is possible to feed potions, either healing or buffing, to henchmen, summons, etc. Just click on and pick up the potion in your inventory and carry it either to the hench/summon or his portrait on the side of the screen (the latter is usually a lot easier, since the actual creature tends to move around), and release. Even without that, familiar/summons, etc. can still be very useful at low levels since they can slow down some of your foes enough that they do not own you as well. In the short term, a wizard level could be quite helpful, but it will hurt you long term (assuming you want a character you can continue with in later chapters) by lowering your Base Attack Bonus, HP and skills, and not adding much in return (since low-level spells will mostly not be that useful in the long term, and to the extent they are investing in UMD as a Rogue will eventually allow you to cast most such spells anyway, making the handful of caster levels redundant). Bard would work better, it offers more for just a few levels, but with an Elf it might result in an XP penalty for not being the favored class.

You can increase the Lore skill as a Rogue, and use Lore potions if what you want is the Identify spell.

If you intend to be primarily a Rogue rather than a caster, multi-classing with a warrior class probably makes more sense.

 

[Desiderius]

I hate to multiclass with Fighter since one of main Elf benefits is proficiencies. Wanting Elf to get auto Search for convenience. I guess with all this cash I can just pay the Bard Wench to Identify?

OK will probably go back and stay straight Rogue and play level two again (this level is going to be a grind). Maybe I’ll just chalk it up to being a prereq for Arcane Archer.

Can you get your hench to do crafting? How important is it to have Hide AND move silently? Spot AND Listen?

 

[rogueknight333]

... Maybe I’ll just chalk it up to being a prereq for Arcane Archer.

Actually, if you go for Arcane Archer, a Wizard level makes perfect sense. Still a bit of a wasted level long term, but AAs have no real choice about that, needing the pre-req, and have enough benefits to make up for it.

Can you get your hench to do crafting?

No. Theoretically, I suppose a module builder could set up a conversational option to ask a henchman to craft for you, but I did not (and do not know of any module in which this was done).

How important is it to have Hide AND move silently? Spot AND Listen?

You need both Hide and Move Silently to stealth effectively, unfortunately, since it can be broken by being either spotted or heard. For the same reason, though, you do not really need both Spot and Listen. Just one of them is fine (for the primary purpose of revealing stealthed enemies anyway. In Swordflight, you will get some special checks against both skills, and will lose out on a few if you only have one - but there are special checks for almost every skill in Swordflight and no way to handle all of them with one character).

 

[Desiderius]

I’m starting over with Human and just going balls out straight Rogue with traps and UMD. Using the extra Rogue cash to buy traps and scrolls for early levels.

Might throw a Ranger or Fighter level in there eventually if I find a good Composite Long Bow I like.

 

[TheEntitledOne]

Thoughts on Shadowdancer?

The 1 level multiclass gives you HiPS (for sneaking in places), which depending on the modules you are playing can be superfun. Works well with solo fighter/rogue builds. Probably not great for combat-centric mods.

 

[Gargaune]

Incidentally, lots of players seem not realize this, but it is possible to feed potions, either healing or buffing, to henchmen, summons, etc. Just click on and pick up the potion in your inventory and carry it either to the hench/summon or his portrait on the side of the screen (the latter is usually a lot easier, since the actual creature tends to move around), and release.

Jesus Christ! I've been playing this game on and off for twenty years and I never realised that! And it's not exactly a trifle, I'd even started scripting a dialogue interface just to feed henchmen potions and it's been part of default functionality all along... Well, at least I needn't bother with that now.

 

[Inf0mercial]

Incidentally, lots of players seem not realize this, but it is possible to feed potions, either healing or buffing, to henchmen, summons, etc. Just click on and pick up the potion in your inventory and carry it either to the hench/summon or his portrait on the side of the screen (the latter is usually a lot easier, since the actual creature tends to move around), and release

Huh and here i was keeping healing packs everywhere.

Also i am currently running through an optimised shifter build 1 monk 5 druid 17 shifter then whatever remains into monk i guess, i am up to level 6 shifter just the first outside bit and its interesting how basically throwing away any semblance of a decent build on normal character makes all the shifting forms way better.

With my trusty potion regimen of all str/dex/wisdom drunk then a barkskin spell manticore gets around 36 AC and Drider the same.

Black wyrmlin gets 35 Ac about as well, it shoots up surprisingly fast once you get shifting levels.

Keep in mind the starting stat block was 10 str 12 dex 10 con 14?intel 18 wisdom 8 char.

Monk lets you have cleave and if i was smart i would have taken weapon fineese earlier but i got it eventually, i am also doing one more thing to make this run easier which is to actually gear the companions up with stuff you get instead of selling it all, also that potion trick lets me feed them death protection and mind blanks which should make my life and sanity way way way better holy shit how did i never know this, i played diablo 2 a ton and it never even occurred to me lol.

I am actually nearly tempted to make a wizard again who just focuses on summons and buffing it nearly seems viable now, i have a full plate armour and tower shield wizard build that only uses still spells i always wanted to try and buffing summons to hell sounds like it would go pretty well with it.

 

[janior]

 

[rogueknight333]

...Might throw a Ranger or Fighter level in there eventually if I find a good Composite Long Bow I like.

It is generally a good idea with Rogue builds to mix in at least 4 levels of some warrior class before exceeding Level 20, as this gets your Base Attack Bonus to 16 giving you 4 attacks per round.

Huh and here i was keeping healing packs everywhere...

Using Healer's Kits can still often be a good idea, firstly since they are very cheap, and tend to provide a better ratio of HP healed per gold expended than potions (precisely how much better dependent on one's Heal skill of course), and secondly because using a Healer's Kit does not trigger an Attack of Opportunity (somewhat inexplicably) while drinking a potion does. The better potions tend to heal more in one gulp though, so are often better in combat where one needs a lot of healing fast.

 

[Desiderius]

Went back and made Human straight-up skill monkey with UMD, Set Trap, and Craft Trap. Really unique experience relying so heavily on consumables but Rogue makes the cash to do it.

Love buying a scroll of Summon Monster and keeping it alive for the whole dungeons. Traps are a relatively cheap way to get through the first couple levels.

Will pick up a Martial level for proficiencies once skills are solid. Was nice to get point blank at level one (along with Thug) instead of having to wait for level three.

 

[Desiderius]

So is there any way to get this Bard hench to use items? Run away from a mob destroying her?

 

[Sabotin]

I believe items in inventory are automatically used...sometimes.

Besides the dialogue options there's a few commands you can use from the right-click menu to manipulate her, but she'll never be very smart. You can put start/follow/attack on your quickbar for example to get her to stand ground or return from running ahead or "trick" her into using ranged attacks. Using stealth mode on a per-character basis can also have some use for guiding agro of enemies at the start. Another thing for later when she's got many spells is to turn spellcasting off entirely and manualy instruct her to buff, that way conserving spells for the most useful things. Qucksave/load also resets hench positions to be near you if they get stuck somewhere.
AI has never been a strong suit of NWN, and companions are extra annoying if you don't play a facetank type character.

At least her personality matches though, which I thought pretty clever on rogueknight's part. I'm still holding onto hope she'll end up as a talking inventory item down the road though .

 

[DeepOcean]

Why is Swordflight dev sticking with NWN1 instead of 2? How do the two compare?

The NWN2 toolset is greatly inferior to NWN's. It has kludgy, not very user-friendly systems and is rather buggy. The biggest problem though is that in NWN one builds areas by mixing and matching pre-fab tiles, but in NWN2 one has to actually paint and sculpt the terrain. In theory, that allows one greater freedom to design an area exactly to one's specifications, as well as, theoretically, producing better looking areas, but it comes at the cost that making an area with the NWN2 toolset takes 10 times as long (at least - that is a very conservative estimate) as making an area in NWN1. I do not have that kind of time. The only thing that makes a project as absurdly massive as Swordflight practical at all is how exceptionally quick and easy to use the NWN toolset is.

Aside from the toolset, I also do not much care for the actual gameplay in NWN2. The game itself also has a lot of kludgy, over-complicated, buggy systems. NWN2 also added a huge mass of additional prestige classes, feats, etc. that completely broke any semblance of game balance and made it far more difficult to design encounters that would be reasonably challenging yet still possible for any reasonable build.

Does the NW1 editor allow for automatic snapping and is more organized? I tried the NWN2 editor and you must find the tile, then you need to have the neighbour tile with the columns on the right place and as a column is made of four pieces, you must rotate the tiles to fit, taking that process and multiplying by a whole area, it took me hours to just place the basic layout without talking of placing the furniture, light sources and enemies. Open areas are even more of a nightmare as you need to paint the terrain and to make something that doesnt look like prosper material, dear God, the time that consumed. Without talking of the constant crashes. Wasting that amount of free time on it didnt seem feaseble for me.

 

[Gargaune]

Does the NW1 editor allow for automatic snapping and is more organized? I tried the NWN2 editor and you must find the tile, then you need to have the neighbour tile with the columns on the right place and as a column is made of four pieces, you must rotate the tiles to fit, taking that process and multiplying by a whole area, it took me hours to just place the basic layout without talking of placing the furniture, light sources and enemies. Open areas are even more of a nightmare as you need to paint the terrain and to make something that doesnt look like prosper material, dear God, the time that consumed. Without talking of the constant crashes. Wasting that amount of free time on it didnt seem feaseble for me.

Yes, the Aurora Toolset is exceptionally adept at building game spaces with minimal effort, it's somewhat reminiscent of those old 2D strategy game map editors. It's not so much that things "snap" together, since you're building on a strict grid and within a single tileset for an area, but tiles do model themselves on their neighbours automatically. The interface is also much cleaner, admittedly in part due to the sparser functional requirements as well. While NWN2's more modern visual construction inherently requires greater effort, it's also a fact that its Electron Toolset wasn't all that well designed or executed.

You can look for videos on YouTube, but really, if you've got NWN lying around just give the Toolset a spin, it's remarkably easy to get a grasp on the essentials. BioWare's original tutorial is just 36 pages altogether and takes you through building a very basic demo module from scratch. The one thing it doesn't fully represent is that if you want to get serious and build compelling gameplay, you'll need to roll up your sleeves and get into the scripting, the wizards won't cut it. You don't need to have a background in programming, in my opinion, you can pick it up as you go, but it does certainly help. If you get to that stage, you'll want to familiarise yourself with the NWN Lexicon reference.

But don't mind any of that, just go double-click nwtoolset.exe and see for yourself.