Squeenix NieR: Automata from Yoko Taro and Platinum Games

[Silva]

Playing it all again (I deleted my old save), and three things jumped at me:

1) Theme > Narrative. This game's writing and story is just okay. There isn't any great characters development here, and it's plot twists are kind of predictable (the exception being the trick at the very end). What it has in spades is Theme. Each part of it is drenched in it's themes, posing questions and more questions to shake the player and make him reflect.

2) Combat is good, but the game doesn't take it anywhere. This time I'm trying to do all quests instead of zapping through the main story as I did before, so I'm playing and experimenting with the mechanics. And the combos, animations, weapons, tactical options, etc are all there and feel fluid and delicious (I missed Overdrive chip the first time). But the game doesn't take it anywhere, instead presenting challenges that are too basic and with little variation, getting repetitive fast. If I were the Platinum devs I would have a slightly sour taste in my mouth, after creating such a solid foundation but not being able to proper "finish" it. Imagine what they could have done if the game had a bit more time in the oven (say, 6 or 12 months).

3) Oh my, replaying after seeing the endings does change how you feel about the events. It gives a new dimension to everything, making you wonder the true motivations behind the characters actions.

Anyway, I'm in route B again and nothing of this diminishes my praise of the game. Instant classic. And Gerrard is a dumbass.

 

[Jaedar]

2) Combat is good, but the game doesn't take it anywhere. This time I'm trying to do all quests instead of zapping through the main story as I did before, so I'm playing and experimenting with the mechanics. And the combos, animations, weapons, tactical options, etc are all there and feel fluid and delicious (I missed Overdrive chip the first time). But the game doesn't take it anywhere, instead presenting challenges that are too basic and with little variation, getting repetitive fast. If I were the Platinum devs I would have a slightly sour taste in my mouth, after creating such a solid foundation but not being able to proper "finish" it. Imagine what they could have done if the game had a bit more time in the oven (say, 6 or 12 months).

It's not just that though, they're not even good at using the enemies and mechanics in the game. Someone programmed the ability for you to control every non-boss enemy in the game by hacking it. This mechanic is really only used once, and even then it's mostly platforming. I hear one third of the dlc is built around it though.

Then you have the emp-bots that can inflict around a dozen cool status ailments on you, they are also used in... 2 fights total?

The combat also has a fairly large and big flaw imo: It heavily scales all damage to level. Have fun trying to beat the optional end content bosses without grinding exp for hours.

 

[Jaedar]

without grinding exp for hours.

You could just

Spoiler

Kill the rabbit statue a bunch of times. Max level in under an hour.

That's good information, but it doesn't really address my core point

 

[Silva]

Do you think it may be related to budget? The game feels pretty "indie" in some parts, like the gfx and (lack of) voice overs.

Oh, and I noticed 9S has much shorter evade range than 2B. I'm using my "strider" chip-set (all evade and speed up, for traversing the map) and it's a huge difference. The boy is not joking when says combat isn't his specialty.

 

[Zombra]

Bros, I'm thinking about getting this game. I understand it has shit gameplay, but I heard it has a good scenario with interesting philosophical questions and twists. So, should I get it? And I've heard it has bazillion endings. Must I replay the game for the Nth time again and again to see them all and understand them? How to better approach it to avoid frustration?

Gameplay isn't terrible but I ran out of juice pretty fast on this because of sheer JRPG epicness*. I know I'm supposed to fall in love 260 hours later but after 5½ hours with no boner I moved on.

*Epic meaning "too fucking long".

EDIT: I realize my reply is 3 weeks too late and you already played the game 6 times anyway. Glad you enjoyed it.

 

[Silva]

Gameplay isn't terrible but I ran out of juice pretty fast on this because of sheer JRPG epicness*. I know I'm supposed to fall in love 260 hours later but after 5½ hours with no boner I moved on.

*Epic meaning "too fucking long".

EDIT: I realize my reply is 3 weeks too late and you already played the game 6 times anyway. Glad you enjoyed it.

Lol yeah ended up loving the game but yes, it's gameplay systems are too thin to hold up such length. First playthrough was better because I was hooked by the central story and ignored most quests. Second playthrough I wanted to see everything and it turned into a chore midway through route B.

Indeed, I think the problem is in route B. It's not different enough from A to warrant replaying it all over again. I wonder if Taro San shouldn't have meshed 2B/9S for route A the same way he did with A2/9S for route C. Alternatively, if he thinks 9S POV was so important to the experience, he could at least make route B shorter by making the boy vanish earlier (eg: Simone could have kidnapped the boy, instead of Adam).

 

[Talby]

The structure and pacing of the game is just really bad, it doesn't matter how awsum your story is if it's delivered in a way that falls completely flat. Plots built around WHAT A TWEEST are usually shit, too.

 

[Silva]

Don't know about the whole structure being bad. Games' intro and route C are dope as fuck. The problem is this big valley between them. I think after that singstress boss (Simone?) things get kind of bland until the very end of route B when the twists happen and game slaps you in the face shouting WAKE UP!

Edit: One thing that bothers me a bit is the juvenile style of machines. They could be more menacing or at least utilitarian in appearance, instead of looking like adorable toys. But, well, it wouldn't be a jap game without the weirdness.

 

[Dayyālu]

To be honest, everything after Simone feels like "now you get to play a while with the characters, you get to know them" and then BAM route C. While I didn't particularly care about 2B, it feels like you get into some sort of routine, a "happy ending" (route A) and then you get the second season (route C) that ups the ante until the ending.

Narratively, it works. Needs more A2, that's my only problem.

OR A FUCKING DRAKENGARD 3\NIER PORT FOR PC

TAAAAAAROOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Silva]

Narratively, it works. Needs more A2, that's my only problem.

Oh yeah, I would totally cut the crybaby screen time in favor of A2.

But you know what would REALLY rock? A prequel DLC of A2 on Pearl Harbor descent, showing up her original squad, the young Anemone and the showdown on mount Kaate. Ending up with A2 looking to the sky and seeing the trails of the YorHa aircrafts entering atmosphere in the beginning of Automata.

 

[Jaedar]

Indeed, I think the problem is in route B. It's not different enough from A to warrant replaying it all over again. I wonder if Taro San shouldn't have meshed 2B/9S for route A the same way he did with A2/9S for route C. Alternatively, if he thinks 9S POV was so important to the experience, he could at least make route B shorter by making the boy vanish earlier (eg: Simone could have kidnapped the boy, instead of Adam).

Imo, I think the perspective is pretty neat. You go through the game as 2B, thinking she is the protagonist. Then you play as 9S and realize that she doesn't drive any quests forward, and her combat abilities are far inferior to his hacking(I think most route A boss fights are even essentially on a timer as 2B, but not as 9S).

The main problem for me is that hacking is less fun and interesting than the combat(and even the combat was drawing a bit long after route A). They should have added more elements to it, or had some way to fast-forward the main quests, as those are the most static content.

Don't know about the whole structure being bad. Games' intro and route C are dope as fuck. The problem is this big valley between them. I think after that singstress boss (Simone?) things get kind of bland until the very end of route B when the twists happen and game slaps you in the face shouting WAKE UP!

Gotta have the aliens and feudal bots though. Admittedly Grün could be skipped without missing much.

 

[Silva]

This will sound gay as fuck, but...

...anyone else finds this game beautiful and even kinda "moving" aesthetically? Even with it's subpar gfx power, I find the way it meshes lighting + vistas + music results in really beautiful moments. The city ruins at the beginning (it gets ugly after the landslide), the desert dunes, the amusement park, the forest castle, the sea line on the flooded city (specially after Grun is defeat and stays erected in the background), etc. I got myself stopping just to appreciate the scenarios at various points through the game. It really gives this sense of wonder, and of loneliness at the same time for the vanishing of humanity. And the music adds to it by evoking different feelings. For eg the desert, with those masks and buried mementos, and that ancient sounding music with percussion and guittar and all that, gave me this sense of mistery and had me trying to picture what kind of civilizations lived there in the distant past. I think it's "synesthesia" the concept of one sense stimuli evoking stimuli in other senses? If so, this game is synesthetic as fuck.

In a way, by the end of the game I felt this same sense of wonder and intimacy to this nameless region the game presents as I did for Lordran in Dark Souls.

 

[Perkel]

Yes that is part of what makes Nier:A so good along with music.

Nier is good study on how contrast empowers themes. You can see that perfectly when you are up in space on station where everything is black and while almost and you are supposed to represent humanity while evil robots are down on ruined earth which you need to kill.

After getting down everything is different. Earth looks great, animals are doing pretty ok and robots don't mind them and land is beautiful full of life. Robots which are supposed to be evil as game progresses are becoming more and more human at first in subtle ways then later on completely (when you reach village) and you start to question your own motives for you quest.

While i like the way game handled post 2B content i also wonder if making game less linear would make game much better in the end. And i don't mean choosing A or B or C in quest but sort of following your perception. Like in that quest where you investigated murder of resistance member and in one of the last lines that member just walk off and you get "finished quest" info but in reality that quest didn't actually end because you could actually catch her while she was walking out and talk to her again which changed completely how this quest ended.

Game already features such themes and i wonder if adding more to that with less linear content would be really cool. Like your logic board being hacked without you not knowing anything and changing visual feed or voice lines of some NPCs so you are steered toward hacker goal rather than yours.

Like in case of village later on where it was attacked. You could have hacked logic board and what you saw was untrue and you hacked villagers with no remorse and game wouldn't mention it even at the end of the game and only by playing again and doing something else before like getting read of hacked board would leave this quest in different light and would change ending etc.

Kind of like in PST you had tatoo "don't trust skull" which played with gamer mind.

 

[Dayyālu]

After getting down everything is different. Earth looks great, animals are doing pretty ok and robots don't mind them and land is beautiful full of life. Robots which are supposed to be evil as game progresses are becoming more and more human at first in subtle ways then later on completely (when you reach village) and you start to question your own motives for you quest.

Spoiler

The fun thing is, as the Forest Kingdom shows and as the ending lore dump proves, what do you mean as "human" regarding the Machines is by itself a subversion. While the machines act as humans, they aren't: they are merely another attempt by the Girls in Red to diversify and to find meaning. It's even spelt out clearly in one of the logs: the machines ape human behaviour and keep doing it without evolution, and in some case they ape it so deeply (like in the Machine Village) to be almost human, as the Androids do. But it's all an attempt done by the Machine Grid or whatever it is to find meaning to and to gain advantage on the androids, there is no real soul behind it. The Forest Kingdom is the best example: the Machines here are apparently indipendent, but after their King "died" they merely kept repeating the same thing for ages, and in the end they are nothing but another cog in the Machine Grid.

Guess is that Taro saw that we would expect another "TAH-DAH THE SHADES HAVE FEELINGS" like in Nier, and played again with our expectations.

 

[Silva]

Yes that is part of what makes Nier:A so good along with music.

Nier is good study on how contrast empowers themes. You can see that perfectly when you are up in space on station where everything is black and while almost and you are supposed to represent humanity while evil robots are down on ruined earth which you need to kill.

After getting down everything is different. Earth looks great, animals are doing pretty ok and robots don't mind them and land is beautiful full of life. Robots which are supposed to be evil as game progresses are becoming more and more human at first in subtle ways then later on completely (when you reach village) and you start to question your own motives for you quest.

The first time I've seen this "black & white" technique was in Tarkovsky's movie Stalker, where the effect makes the outside of the Zone this dreary place, while the Zone is colorful and "magical" in a way. I think Yoko Taro aimed for a similar feel here. For all the YorHa/Human Council fascist propaganda of a ravaged Earth dominated by machines, the truth is entirely different.

While i like the way game handled post 2B content i also wonder if making game less linear would make game much better in the end. And i don't mean choosing A or B or C in quest but sort of following your perception. Like in that quest where you investigated murder of resistance member and in one of the last lines that member just walk off and you get "finished quest" info but in reality that quest didn't actually end because you could actually catch her while she was walking out and talk to her again which changed completely how this quest ended.

What? I didn't know that. What does she tell?

I noticed some quests actually end up open letting you do different things:

Spoiler

in the God Box after defeating the "Big Brother/Little Brother" machine and the Little Brothers knee down and gesture for you to spare Big Brother life, you can actually do it by turning around and leaving. The same happens with the Thief of Forest Kingdom, Pascal & the children, etc. In fact, I've read somewhere that if you choose to edit Pascal memory and later visit his village, he is canibalizing the children body parts or something, a pretty tragic twist*. I wish we could kill the bitch from the wondering couple though.

*edit: just read this. The parts are the new weapon at the shop, "machine heads". It's supposedly from the children, since it only appears after you wipe Pascal's memories. Ouch.

 

[Silva]

Spoiler

The fun thing is, as the Forest Kingdom shows and as the ending lore dump proves, what do you mean as "human" regarding the Machines is by itself a subversion. While the machines act as humans, they aren't: they are merely another attempt by the Girls in Red to diversify and to find meaning. It's even spelt out clearly in one of the logs: the machines ape human behaviour and keep doing it without evolution, and in some case they ape it so deeply (like in the Machine Village) to be almost human, as the Androids do. But it's all an attempt done by the Machine Grid or whatever it is to find meaning to and to gain advantage on the androids, there is no real soul behind it. The Forest Kingdom is the best example: the Machines here are apparently indipendent, but after their King "died" they merely kept repeating the same thing for ages, and in the end they are nothing but another cog in the Machine Grid.

Spoiler

Don't know about them being just another "cog". It seems to me those machines that were released from the network actually developed some sort of self-awareness (soul ?). It's just that this evolution took different forms, degrees and directions depending on the machines and environment. Some were clearly failures, others half-successes, etc. I think Pascal is the one that most approached full counsciousness, as shown by his capacity to adapt/evolv by the end when he decides to make use violence to protect his children.

But I think the message here is not about achieving humanity, I don't believe androids nor machines can do that. It's more like being inspired by and finding purpose in humanity the same way actual humans did in the figure of god(s) and it's extraordinary tales. Humanity is like this beacon that helps android/machines find meaning in life. Even this is not a constant, though, as shown by the cult machines that mass suicide at the factory.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Spoiler

The fun thing is, as the Forest Kingdom shows and as the ending lore dump proves, what do you mean as "human" regarding the Machines is by itself a subversion. While the machines act as humans, they aren't: they are merely another attempt by the Girls in Red to diversify and to find meaning. It's even spelt out clearly in one of the logs: the machines ape human behaviour and keep doing it without evolution, and in some case they ape it so deeply (like in the Machine Village) to be almost human, as the Androids do. But it's all an attempt done by the Machine Grid or whatever it is to find meaning to and to gain advantage on the androids, there is no real soul behind it. The Forest Kingdom is the best example: the Machines here are apparently indipendent, but after their King "died" they merely kept repeating the same thing for ages, and in the end they are nothing but another cog in the Machine Grid.

Spoiler

Don't know about them being just another "cog". It seems to me those machines that were released from the network actually developed some sort of self-awareness (soul ?). It's just that this evolution took different forms, degrees and directions depending on the machines and environment. Some were clearly failures, others half-successes, etc. I think Pascal is the one that most approached full counsciousness, as shown by his capacity to adapt/evolv by the end when he decides to make use violence to protect his children.

But I think the message here is not about achieving humanity, I don't believe androids nor machines can do that. It's more like being inspired by and finding purpose in humanity the same way actual humans did in the figure of god(s) and it's extraordinary tales. Humanity is like this beacon that helps android/machines find meaning in life. Even this is not a constant, though, as shown by the cult machines that mass suicide at the factory.

Spoiler

Machine self-awareness is a really dodgy topic because the game strongly suggests that while the Machines are indeed intelligent in that they coordinate and strengthen to overcome obstacles, their ability to create and deviate is strange and distinctly not human. There was strong implication that whenever the Machines are tasked with something, they will always repeat the task exactly the same, all the way to having the exact same failure at the end. Forest Kingdom is just the largest in-game example of this besides that text, in that it repeats its status quo for eternity. But then you have this sense with Pascal, Engels, Simone, and many others that the Machines themselves most definately are not aware of this quality, and so you have reason do doubt if they really are just doomed to repeat their directive with exact precision. And eventually we learn that this is also true to the Androids, but more importantly that the defining element behind this cycle of failure and misery is circumstances far beyond the individual's control, first and foremost in the form of 2B's real mission to continue to kill 9S time after time and reset again; and the N2 Terminal's Red Girls desire to attempt to decode how to evolve to true self-awareness, but even this does not work as the N2 Terminal and the Red Girls' "swarm intelligence" type of AI self-terminates when the Pods heighten their ability for individuality. It is more that it is the collective that is neurotic and doomed to failure, despite its evident great power, and it is that collective society that ultimately fails the individual or worse.

It's not really about humanity, in fact the indication is that there is not really anything special about humans. Is there really anything special in human kind of self-awareness? Androids and Machines alike, as sufficiently advanced artificial life, are capable of developing that sense of individuality, and learn those supposedly human emotions and feelings on their own. The bigger issue is that the shadow of the past has essentially left the world itself at a point of failure, where nobody can be happy because everything has been rigged to guarantee failure and unhappiness. What makes the final ending of the game so powerful is that it asks the player to intervene in the way that the world works, if they really think that after all this 2B and 9S deserve a fair and honest chance at a happy ending outside of that crooked and rigged world of Automata. It's the ability to care and love (as it is that sense of empathy that moves the Pods to become beings in their own right as well, and that sense of the world's injustice) another outside of groups and societies that becomes a redemption for the bleak world, not trying to become something and find meaning. Seeking to become something and enforcing meaning from the outside is what made the world so cruel and hopeless to begin with.

 

[Silva]

Lol can't remember Vaarna last non-ironic/don't know if serious post. But I agree with this one. Great post, bro.

Hey Cowboy Moment , have you finished this game? I like to hear your opinions, even when I don't agree with them.

I'm specially curious to see how this fare against Persona 5 and it's authors cowardice to get more overt in its issues, and the dissonance between the game mantra (get up, stand up etc) and what the protags actually do (stay prone taking it in the ass until someone shoes up to help you).

 

[Krraloth]

Done with ending D yesterday night.
What a blast.
I admit I pussied out so I didn't sign up for the helping brigade, if only because I want to 100% it and fuck starting from scratch.
Although the idea grows on my by the minute.
Went straight into my top 5 all time games I've played.
I played on Hard and it took me 2 or 3 hours to reach that damned first save. (PS4)
42 h to ending D with still sidequests to do.

Of cavia I only ever played Drakengard 2 on ps2 but never finished it cause I got frustrated ad the gnome boss (underground bullshit).
I have ordered Nier and I plan to suffer thorough it.

 

[newtmonkey]

Finally got around to buying this the other day. I really liked Nier Replicant on the PS3 (especially dat soundtrack), so I dunno why I waited so long to get this (probably because the game has been stuck at 8000 yen in Japan since it was released and I never bothered to look for a cheaper alternative until recently).

Anyway, this game is pretty amazing. Combat is alright, boss fights can be a lot of fun. However, the atmosphere is through the roof. I know based on who made the game and what I have read here and elsewhere that some CRAZY TWIST will come, but at least in the beginning, I love how this thing is unfolding. I like how there are few cinema scenes, no exposition, and how the game just has your sidekick point out stuff as you are playing to suggest that everything is not as it seems. Bonus points for how the sidekick starts out saying one thing, then 4 hours later starts mentioning stuff that sort of contradicts what he said earlier—and the main character points it out to him. And it's all done through "throwaway" dialog that just plays in the background as you are fighting/exploring. No melodramatic cut scenes, no audio logs left all over the place. This is second to only Dark Souls in how cleverly it is telling its story (again, so far at least... I would not be surprised if it is about to get stupid). I love the idea of the empire of mankind in exile trying to win back our homeland remotely through androids. Love the greeting/salute of "Glory to mankind." The translation in this game is AWESOME. They did a really great job.

On top of that, the music is amazing. I mean, it's very similar to the music from the first Nier, which had, without question, the best soundtrack in the PS3/360 era of consoles. And like the soundtrack for Nier, it is DYNAMIC. I literally got chills when I went exploring the overworld for the first time and this bombastic music kicked in, then suddenly (seamlessly) vocals kicked in... and then as I got closer to town, everything but the vocals seamlessly faded out. Or how when you get to that carnival area, the robots MARCH DOWN THE STAIRS IN SYNC WITH THE MUSIC. What other game is doing this now? Or even in the last 20 fucking years?????? No one has given a shit about music to this extent since the days of iMUSE.

 

[Haplo]

Hehe, the atmosphere is indeed great. Theme park is really nice, but wait till you get to a certain section in a certain robot factory...

Aaand you're in for a few surprises...

 

[newtmonkey]

I am a bit drunk now, so forgive me.

I cannot think of a single game that has paid as much attention to music as Nier games. Recall in the first Nier when you end up fighting Popola and Devola, the music starts out with your typical sounding Nier boss music, and then those familiar vocals from their song kicks in and suddenly you realize both women are singing!!!! What other game does this????
Or how when you move throughout the town and the music dynamically changes, adding and dropping instruments/voices in real time LIKE FUCKING MONKEY ISLAND 2!!!!!!!!! Not only that, but remember how when you enter your hut it actually applies some weird effect to the main instrument that gives it this eerie sound.

Again, no game in the last 20 years has even thought of doing this, and here comes Nier with dynamic music for no reason than it's awesome.

So the fact that Automata does this too just impressed the hell out of me. There is no reason in this day and age to devote the time/money/resources to do this, cuz 99% of people don't give a shit, but they did it cuz it's awesome.

 

[Jasede]

I'll drink to that.

 

[Jaedar]

On top of that, the music is amazing. I mean, it's very similar to the music from the first Nier, which had, without question, the best soundtrack in the PS3/360 era of consoles. And like the soundtrack for Nier, it is DYNAMIC. I literally got chills when I went exploring the overworld for the first time and this bombastic music kicked in, then suddenly (seamlessly) vocals kicked in... and then as I got closer to town, everything but the vocals seamlessly faded out. Or how when you get to that carnival area, the robots MARCH DOWN THE STAIRS IN SYNC WITH THE MUSIC. What other game is doing this now? Or even in the last 20 fucking years?????? No one has given a shit about music to this extent since the days of iMUSE.

Later on the game does (imo) even cooler stuff seamlessly switching in and out of chiptune versions of all the songs.

Also dat ending E. But that's a world away for you still.

 

[Silva]

Later on the game does (imo) even cooler stuff seamlessly switching in and out of chiptune versions of all the songs

The ending action sequence is nuts. That part where..

Spoiler

the camera switch back and forth between A2 on elevator and 9S on the jet

..is fucking insane.

Also, on hard the best bosses give me that Bloodborne vibe of tense fights full of adrenaline and amazing music in the background. It's an orgasmic experience.