Pink Eye
Monk
>>They serve to enrich the role playing experience by reflecting the choices and decisions you made.It doesn't really change anything I've said though.>Yes, you can develop your character from the mechanical side, but by limiting to that you are limiting his development as a character-person.
[...] it is the mechanics that are more profound than the abstract. For it is the mechanics in which demonstrates the character's capabilities by giving you direct feed back. This feed back fundamentally enforces the choices you made upon creating the character. This nuance reflects and supports your role playing choices by supplementing them within the rules, and via the game play systems. In other words the mechanics and game play systems are being used as a means to support those choice in a impactful way.
Yes, the mechanics are there to serve as a reference point (who you are, what you can do), but it doesn't invalidate the point that outside of mechanical development there is the whole character's personal development/growth which you simply can't put down in numbers. And that, in my opinion, is the most important aspect of playing an RPG: not only playing as a mechanical character, but also as someone who has his own history, goals, feelings, etc. The system is there to support this, however, for some reason you keep putting the system before the player.
When I said "Vampire the Masquerade" I wasn't talking about Bloodlines. I was talking about the PnP RPG system.Bloodlines still had combat [...]
Not sure who you're arguing here with. I never said combat is not part of the RPG experience. What I question is the focus. You can play any RPG like tactical combat game/wargame, but then you're not there for the role playing: you're there for combat. If I want to play games for their combat I look for combat games, not RPGs. That's why my gold standard for cRPGs is closer to games like Planescape: Torment or Fallout 2, rather than Icewind Dale 1/2.Combat is not an item to check off in a list. It is an ingredient that is necessary for the role playing experience to be complete. Just as how a good sound track, story telling, companions, and setting; are all essential ingredients.
You're missing the point. I never said that "a story based progression system is able to exist without mechanics supporting it", because I never ever questioned that Disco has mechanics supporting character's progression in the first place.>It isn't [a nonsensical question]. The same word can be understood differently from person to person. If you can't define what's meaningful, then we can't discuss it.
Very well let's ground this debate, shall we. Can you provide us with an instance in which a story based progression system was able to exist without mechanics supporting it? And, was that system far more meaningful than a DnD/Pathfinder based system?
What I keep asking for is "what's meaningful character development?" (and the follow-up question "can character development only be mechanical?").
>>Adds another dimension to the experience of role playing by simulating the consequences of those choices within the rule system.
>>Story elements are just the icing on the cake.
>For some reason you keep putting the system before the player.
Because all of that math is what facilitates you to develop interesting and unique compelling characters. It's the skeleton in which all of that flavor is based off of. It's the foundation that allows you to develop your characters even further through story and social interactions, backgrounds, motivations, and so on. That,"complex mathematical equations and in-depth tactical encounters", is what makes it compelling. You take that out, and you're left with a hollow system. It's why we're having debates on whether or not DE is even an RPG. Which I try to stay out of. Such discussions are not productive and always serve to confuse rather than illuminate. Sure, we can discuss the composition in which makes a game an RPG, but that won't achieve anything. For RPGs are more of a spectrum, everyone will have different opinions on the term.
>I was talking about the PnP RPG system.
Vampire the Masquerade still has systems in place to support combat: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Combat_Systems
Vampire the Masquerade is a very mechanical based system. Just because your DM allows you flexibility in how you deal with encounters, does not negate the fact.
>"What's meaningful character development?"
I've already given you my answer. Feats, Skills, Stats; the mechanics in other words. And the game play systems in which simulate those mechanics, i.e. combat. It's the most direct and observable means to measure character development in a way that is impactful.
>Can character development only be mechanical?
No. But these systems, math, and rules are the most significant when developing and growing a character.
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