Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

Im not hating on PoE mechanics in particular anyway, a lot of them are fine, some of them have crossed my mind and i can see them as sensible and appropriate. What im hating on is the philosophy behind it, the idea of balance, the idea of stripping down every single class and making a dota version of it in my ar pee gee.

You sum up my critique of your criticism yourself here. You're not criticizing anything actually in the game, you're just writing long posts about vague concepts so it is impossible for anyone to actually respond to your criticism.

BTW, my BG2 Paladin had 3 intelligence. Definetely lived up to your requirements huh? On the other hand, PoE trusts me to decide what makes sense for my character, so I don't have to deal with the developer's arbitrary bullshit decisions in that department. Out of two so-called evils, I'd rather live with the last one.

Also, I'm not a Sawyer-fan. I don't think Sawyer really understood what made the Infinity Engine games great evidenced by a lot of possible high-level problems like the detailed management of all your six characters. And by the fact that IWD2 is easily the worst of the IE-games. I also think he downright misunderstands the demands and issues you face when designing P&P games (as evidenced by his like of 4E over an infinitely better system such as Pathfinder, and by his inability to fathom that houserules and homebrew are an absolute stock asset of the genre, not something that points to a bad system necessarily). But the blanket claims of "omg this is so mmo" or dota or whatever the fuck can go fuck themselves. Unless you have a concrete criticism of something, don't expect anyone to take your criticism seriously.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Honestly, I'm thinking about leaving this forum due to all the edgy tryhards constantly hating on PoE for no reason. It's really dumb and it doesn't make discussion fun or interesting.

 

[Grunker]

I'm thinking about leaving this forum

don't threaten to leave bro, shit's gay

shit or get off the pot

 

[tuluse]

I knew that, was mostly discussing battle roles, as always. I dont think a class is a bunch of theme appropriate skills, a class is a life profession. A paladin isnt a dude that has holy spells and can handle a sword, its a guy that got personally chosen by god as his sword, it is judge, jury and executioner, it is a role model, it is a beacon of hope, etc. You may think they are the same, but thats simply not true.

But you are right, i should reread the mechanics of the game keeping in mind that sawyer wants to make all classes combat focused, and wonder why the fighter never got to learn Dirty fighting, Finishing Blow, or Coordinated Positioning, sounds like handy shit on the battlefield or why Rogues cant learn Weapon Specialization, when it could be extremely handy to learn to handle their small weapons better than most to make up for the fact that they are small fucking weapons and that they are lightly armored, we see the king of rogues sawyer is making in literature all the time, but they are masters of their weapon and its usually a very specific kind of weapon that they use, more like the tool of the trade of a profesional than like a thing with a pointy end.

Or if we go to attributes, might influencing how much damage your fireball does, guess pixie mages wont be a thing anymore. not that i really give a shit about what it does, what bothers me is that its made only because of balance reasons and not because of some vision the dev has of his world.

Im not hating on PoE mechanics in particular anyway, a lot of them are fine, some of them have crossed my mind and i can see them as sensible and appropriate. What im hating on is the philosophy behind it, the idea of balance, the idea of stripping down every single class and making a dota version of it in my ar pee gee.

Delterius i never claimed than dota and mmo balancing are the same, i claimed that they are both shit in a game that is aspiring to be anything resembling old D&D editions.

tl;dr : i dont have a problem with the mechanics, they are p. sound for the most part, i have a problem with what drives all the design choices and how it will impact on the feel of the game.

Do you ask the same questions of D&D? Why can't the fighter learn to backstab, why can't the rogue spend a feat or something to get better BaB? Why can't a monk use a sword? Why does a mage need to use a feat just to put on a suit of armor? Why do no gods other than lawful good ones have paladins? Etc, etc, etc.

The fighter can't learn dirty fighting because he spend his time learning how to engage multiple enemies. That's what it means when you pick fighter as your class.

Your post just comes across as the classes are named differently from my expectations, so they're bad.

 

[Ninjerk]

Lhynn You seem to either not understand or not like what is actually happening behind the curtain when it comes to video games. Delterius "trolling" you is him attempting to leading you through a Socratic process to understand that you don't understand what you're criticizing in the slightest. Things like DPS and EHP are modeling tools that people with likely much more mathematical education than you came up with to optimize the performance of their characters, and their introduction into the gaming lexicon has benefited players like yourself by their widespread adoption by people you talk down about as "retards." Words like "spike" and "burst" were likely similarly introduced by similarly minded players.

 

[TheLostOne]

Im not hating on PoE mechanics in particular anyway, a lot of them are fine, some of them have crossed my mind and i can see them as sensible and appropriate. What im hating on is the philosophy behind it, the idea of balance, the idea of stripping down every single class and making a dota version of it in my ar pee gee.

You sum up my critique of your criticism yourself here. You're not criticizing anything actually in the game, you're just writing long posts about vague concepts so it is impossible for anyone to actually respond to your criticism.

BTW, my BG2 Paladin had 3 intelligence. Definetely lived up to your requirements huh? On the other hand, PoE trusts me to decide what makes sense for my character, so I don't have to deal with the developer's arbitrary bullshit decisions in that department. Out of two so-called evils, I'd rather live with the last one.

Also, I'm not a Sawyer-fan. I don't think Sawyer really understood what made the Infinity Engine games great evidenced by a lot of possible high-level problems like the detailed management of all your six characters. And by the fact that IWD2 is easily the worst of the IE-games. I also think he downright misunderstands the demands and issues you face when designing P&P games (as evidenced by his like of 4E over an infinitely better system such as Pathfinder, and by his inability to fathom that houserules and homebrew are an absolute stock asset of the genre, not something that points to a bad system necessarily). But the blanket claims of "omg this is so mmo" or dota or whatever the fuck can go fuck themselves. Unless you have a concrete criticism of something, don't expect anyone to take your criticism seriously.

Not particularly interested in the specific topics this argument has been covering, but that sentiment you just posted is kind of bullshit. It is completely reasonable to be concerned about the overall vision and design behind the mechanics despite not having a problem specifically with the mechanics shown thus far. A game is more than the sum of its parts. We certainly haven't seen all the parts of PoE yet so we still don't know how it's all going to come together at the end.

If the philosophy behind the game design isn't an interesting argument for you or you're not concerned about it, that's fine. That doesn't make it an invalid or unworthy discussion to have. In fact it's a bit silly to say the ends don't matter if the means seem okay.

 

[Ivan]

Is it possible to upgrade to the Collector's Box from the regular boxed tier?

 

[Grunker]

Not particularly interested in the specific topics this argument has been covering, but that sentiment you just posted is kind of bullshit.

Of course you can have issues with the goals of a given design, but even that can be given concrete voice. Lhynn's objections are a mixture of "I want PoE to be something it is not" and a vagueness that makes it impossible to respond to. If you actually want to criticize something as intangible as the "feel" of a game, you better make damned sure you understand what you're criticizing because otherwise no one else will. Saying "it feels like an MMO" about a game with as little tangible criticism as Lhynn presents is absolute horseshit.

 

[TheLostOne]

Fair point. I wasn't making the claim that their arguments are sound or otherwise. I haven't had the interest to read them. It just sounded like you were suggesting that you needed specific evidence of mechanics to have problems with the game designers' general direction and philosophy.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Lhynn You seem to either not understand or not like what is actually happening behind the curtain when it comes to video games. Delterius "trolling" you is him attempting to leading you through a Socratic process to understand that you don't understand what you're criticizing in the slightest. Things like DPS and EHP are modeling tools that people with likely much more mathematical education than you came up with to optimize the performance of their characters, and their introduction into the gaming lexicon has benefited players like yourself by their widespread adoption by people you talk down about as "retards." Words like "spike" and "burst" were likely similarly introduced by similarly minded players.

Nope, it's you who completely missed what Lhynn says. Went right past you.
Wow, those terms are made up by players. Very useful information.

Spoiler

Just defending my "less aggressive" bro and renewing Grunker's butthurt.

 

[Lhynn]

Your post just comes across as the classes are named differently from my expectations, so they're bad.

Grunker
Well, perhaps that is all it is. My wanting to get into the setting by reading about the classes, the creatures, etc. And only managing to find myself mildly disgusted by it all, feels so uninspired and for the sake of functionality instead of to get my imagination going.
I do not like the overall vision of a balanced experience where each class is equally important to a group in a combat scenario, i do not like the idea of IWD3: Sawyers Revengance - This time ill get it right.

The CYOA bits look nice tho, the only part of the game that i really want to be playing from what ive seen so far, i also appreciate the effort to make each attribute count for every class, that much is not a bad thing in and on itself (it also compliments the CYOA bits nicely as you will be able to get the checks you want right and remain competitive), i do enjoy the idea of a smart fighter beating a dumb big one, or the idea of a really though wiry rogue (not so much the idea of a dude that gets stronger the more swords he gets to the face tho).

 

[Grunker]

renewing Grunker's butthurt

We're way past the glorious days where you were interesting enough to cause butthurt.

to get my imagination going.

So what you're really complaining about is lack of larping

Nah, I guess if that's your complaint, I don't understand why you must force a fusion between those mechanical gameplay elements that Sawyer discusses on wikis and in videos, and all the lore-dumps they've made? I mean, there's a ton of lore out there for you to peruse if that's what you want.

I do not like the overall vision of a balanced experience where each class is equally important to a group in a combat scenario

And you're not going to get it. I guarantee you - right now, you can tattoo it on your butt - that you will feel a variation in usefulness between your party members throughout different fights. I might have reservations about this game, but I guaran-fucking-tee you that your group won't be equally useful in all fights. This is the exact misunderstanding that not actually reading Sawyer's writing will produce. Hell, even if that's what he wanted, it would obviouslly be impossible with the class diversity he is aiming for.

I find it hard not to accuse you of the things you've been accused for, for three pages, which is reading Sawyer's posts like Satan reads the bible. Sawyer never said he would achieve perfect balance - in fact he flat-out said that his idea of balance isn't to make everything equally good but to make sure nothing is completely useless. There is a major difference.

This goes with my complaints that your criticism is not concrete. If it was, I wouldn't be trying to guess what you're really complaining about with each of my replies. Take this for example:

i do not like the idea of IWD3: Sawyers Revengance - This time ill get it right.

You need to go back - what - five pages to find me answering this exact accusation and it is still every bit as misunderstood. The stated project goal, lofty as it sounds, is still "fuse together the best parts of IWD dungeon crawling, BG adventuring and PS:T story." We're mainly discussing mechanics in this thread because honestly the rest is still very vague and hard to debate.

The reason I compared your criticism to that of FeelTheRads is that when he complains about this game, which he does a lot, he often directly misrepresents facts or simply makes broad, generalizing claims like "this game is so like an mmo", which are impossible to answer. Without him following it up with something tangible to discuss, there is little debate to be had. I was pretty sure you were doing that as well. However I'm still confused whether you've just misunderstood something or whether I just don't grasp what you're actual problem is. Maybe it would help if you could point to something that exemplifies what the big deal is. The more vague your criticism gets the more inconcrete the replies you get become.

 

[Ninjerk]

Lhynn You seem to either not understand or not like what is actually happening behind the curtain when it comes to video games. Delterius "trolling" you is him attempting to leading you through a Socratic process to understand that you don't understand what you're criticizing in the slightest. Things like DPS and EHP are modeling tools that people with likely much more mathematical education than you came up with to optimize the performance of their characters, and their introduction into the gaming lexicon has benefited players like yourself by their widespread adoption by people you talk down about as "retards." Words like "spike" and "burst" were likely similarly introduced by similarly minded players.

Nope, it's you who completely missed what Lhynn says. Went right past you.
Wow, those terms are made up by players. Very useful information.

Spoiler

Just defending my "less aggressive" bro and renewing Grunker's butthurt.

I rewrote that short response like 6 times to make it as unaggressive as possible while still conveying the point.

 

[Lhynn]

Grunker
Heh, i have looked at the lore, its p. banal. Most of it feels like its there to justify the existence of classes or familiar creatures. I know have to keep in mind im criticizing a game that is not done yet, and that i have little to no info at my disposal at this point, so its extremely hard to find anything concrete to talk about, more like a gut feel i have.
Guess ill be back to this thread in a couple months to see how things have evolved.

Ninjerk terms like Damage Per Second and Electrical Hyper Penis are terms i dont care for that much, it is an oversimplification of an abstraction that sounds like shit to me, i had thought of the idea of average damage per round way back in 2003, when i was designing a class special abilities for AD&D, before i was ever familiar with the term, a couple months after i toyed with it i found it to be banal boring shit and moved on, the gaming industry didnt. You dont need to be a math genius to figure out how it works.
I like the concept of active defense a LOT more, it fucks up any idea of "average damage per" because suddenly you cant trust that youll hit every time and that youll be doing the same amount of damage with each hit on average or even if it will be beneficial to be hitting at all, of course this is easier to apply on a turn based enviroment.
As for spike and burst and other similar concepts, it doesnt take a linguist to understand what a spike in damage is if you understand what a spike is, its similar with burst, if you have a dictionary close by you can figure it out yourself without needing a high IQ to come up with it or get it. Its not "clever", its common sense mang.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker
Heh, i have looked at the lore, its p. banal.

Dude, you need to decide what the fuck you want. You spend a page frothing about the fact that you're not getting D&D paladins, then on the next page you complain Pillars of Eternity is banal. Compared to Forgotten Realms, PoE is positively brimming with new concepts. And I say that as an FR fan who is currently running a game in that setting. It is pretty damned hard to be dissuaded from thinking that no matter what PoE does, it will fail to satisfy you. The game is an IE-like with all that entails, including standard high fantasy. Complaining about that is like complaining that Call of Duty is a shooter: fucking futile. Complain if it's a bad shooter, fair enough, but just complaining it's a shooter makes no sense.

So, I ask again. You had complaints about the lore because it failed to tug your imagination. Those complaints were made - I pre-fucking-sume - knowing that you were not going to get something other than high fantasy. This is evidenced by the fact that you yourself refer to standard paladins as something that would be acceptable. So:

What. Exactly. Is. Your. Issue?

 

[Rake]

And I say that as an FR fan who is currently running a game in that setting.

Stop arguing and run your game damnit. I want more updates.

 

[Ninjerk]

Ninjerk terms like Damage Per Second and Electrical Hyper Penis are terms i dont care for that much, it is an oversimplification of an abstraction that sounds like shit to me, i had thought of the idea of average damage per round way back in 2003, when i was designing a class special abilities for AD&D, before i was ever familiar with the term, a couple months after i toyed with it i found it to be banal boring shit and moved on, the gaming industry didnt. You dont need to be a math genius to figure out how it works.
I like the concept of active defense a LOT more, it fucks up any idea of "average damage per" because suddenly you cant trust that youll hit every time and that youll be doing the same amount of damage with each hit on average or even if it will be beneficial to be hitting at all, of course this is easier to apply on a turn based enviroment.
As for spike and burst and other similar concepts, it doesnt take a linguist to understand what a spike in damage is if you understand what a spike is, its similar with burst, if you have a dictionary close by you can figure it out yourself without needing a high IQ to come up with it or get it. Its not "clever", its common sense mang.

What is the abstraction that is being oversimplified here?

 

[Sensuki]

 

[Grunker]

And I say that as an FR fan who is currently running a game in that setting.

Stop arguing and run your game damnit. I want more updates.

es comin

 

[Abu Antar]

I'd brofist this post but I can't.

My excitement levels are rising for Pillars of Eternity.

 

[Delterius]

fucking futile.

Now you understand my lofty words.

 

[Grunker]

Now you understand my lofty words.

I always did, my sweet Delterius, I always did.

 

[The Fish]

Honestly, I'm thinking about leaving this forum due to all the edgy tryhards constantly hating on PoE for no reason. It's really dumb and it doesn't make discussion fun or interesting.

Location: AmeriKKKa

 

[AW8]

He's a hard-ass gangster, from the heart of AmeriKKKa.

 

[Lhynn]

Dude, you need to decide what the fuck you want. You spend a page frothing about the fact that you're not getting D&D paladins, then on the next page you complain Pillars of Eternity is banal. Compared to Forgotten Realms, PoE is positively brimming with new concepts. And I say that as an FR fan who is currently running a game in that setting. It is pretty damned hard to be dissuaded from thinking that no matter what PoE does, it will fail to satisfy you. The game is an IE-like with all that entails, including standard high fantasy. Complaining about that is like complaining that Call of Duty is a shooter: fucking futile. Complain if it's a bad shooter, fair enough, but just complaining it's a shooter makes no sense.

So, I ask again. You had complaints about the lore because it failed to tug your imagination. Those complaints were made - I pre-fucking-sume - knowing that you were not going to get something other than high fantasy. This is evidenced by the fact that you yourself refer to standard paladins as something that would be acceptable. So:

What. Exactly. Is. Your. Issue?

Alright, poor choice of words, it wasnt banal, the word i was looking for was boring and uninteresting. Animancy is the only think that looks remotely intriguing.
Its an original setting that fails to make me want to be in it. I am sorry i worded my little criticism wrong.

Let me put a counter point, Exile. The world is ruled by a tyrant. any crime, even minor ones are basis for exile into a network of colossal caverns far below the surface. You and your friends were caught speaking against the empire and were sent trough the portal to the underworld, never to see the light of the sun again . Magic, bestiary, places, they were all interesting, it was a trip to the unknown, i almost get a stiffy talking bout it.

I read about forgotten realms and i read about pretty much any time period in it and i want to be there, see those conflicts, be in them, shape them as an adventurer, be a protagonist:

Spoiler

-5000

• The Twelve Nights of Fire: The elven realm of Uvaeren is destroyed by a falling star whose impact opens a 100-mile-long and 30-mile-wide clearing in Cormanthor's treeline. The Coronal and nearly all of its noble houses die instantly or during the conflagration. Few Uvaeranni escape to the safety of deeper Arcorar, aside from those few dozen away from the realm during this disaster.

Spoiler

c. -4900

• Plague hits Calimport and Almraiven. Known as the Warrior's Plague, for the berserk rages and battle madness in those afflicted; most casualties among military forces.

Spoiler

-3750

• Ships from Haunghdannar sent to the fortress of Sonnmorndin begin to disappear. All contact is lost with this outpost of the Sailors of the Mountainous Waves.

Spoiler

-2381

• The palace of the Bakkal of Calimport erupts in flames, ending that corrupt and vicious dynasty. The fires spread and destroy the western half of Calimport.

I read about PoE lore, and i cant bring myself to give a shit, im reading a history book about magical fake europe.

Spoiler

Circa 800 AI

• The order of palace guards Darcozzi Paladini is formed.
• The Glanfathans occupy Eir Glanfath.

Ok this one is pretty cool to see:

Spoiler

Circa 2808 AI

• The Saint's War informally ends when St. Waidwen was destroyed by a massive bomb north of Halgot Citadel.

But thats the only interesting one in the timeline.

Spoiler

Circa 2670 AI

• The Iroccian calendar based on earlier Vailian calendars is invented.

Now i ask you Grunker, bro. Am i entitled to my own opinion? do i get to say PoE lore seems pretty banal and boring compared to forgotten realms? i know im not being fair, as that world is completely underdeveloped so far, but i literally saw nothing (other than someone blowing up a holy king with a

) of interest.

Now on the topic of high fantasy

Souls

Spoiler

Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them.

Miracles are now something mundane in this world. FR is high magic, yes. you can find magical creatures everywhere, but magic itself remains magical, only accessible to a few, in the form of prohibitively expensive magical training, most people go trough their entire lives without witnessing magic, magical research is both slow, risky and incredibly costly, and often times immoral, and those that seek mastery of the art while traveling more often than not end up dead in one of the many dungeons of the land, because they are not combatants, they are dudes in robes that havent hit a layup on their lives (at least thats how it was pre 3.0).

These are however, minor nitpicks, i wouldnt even have said anything if you hadnt asked. A lot of what you said has convinced me that im making a rash judgement, that i read more into whats said in this thread than i should. But when it comes to judging the world obsidian has created, for the most part, right now, meh. meh for its lore, meh for its adventuring profesions, meh for its magic.



Meh.




tl;dr the world of MEhora