Company News Paradox has acquired White Wolf and the World of Darkness IP, including Vampire: The Masquerade

[Dreaad]

This hypothetical game is serious business I see... Meh, honestly I think if I had to pick a group/groups to do this... and for whatever reason it had to be first person. I would pick Beth to adapt their shitty engine and then preferably someone else to make the content for the game, maybe even obsidian. That way at least mods could fix the atmosphere and textures.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

Stainless Veteran You know exactly why you're gonna get dogpiled for suggesting EM--they popmole mechanics nearly as hard as CDPR. Even worse, they made a MGS-clone and put a Deus Ex wrapper on it--fucking design by marketing committee if I've ever fucking seen it. If EM took VtM on, it would be a fucking Crackdownlike set in a universe more closely approximating Underworld than WoD. It might be good for whatever you call that game, but it would NOT be any good with respect to WoD.

Yeah, and that's why I wrote that I fully understand that I will be stoned. But I mentioned them because while I don't think they are a good fit for a faithful adaptation of PnP mechanics and complexity - I still think that oWoD is very, very hard to translate into CRPG format, both mechanically, in terms of metaplot, and social focus. Maybe Black Isle in its heyday could have managed to pull it off, but none of the contemporary devs.
But. If we're talking about Bloodlines successor specifically, then for the game to be both faithful and good it must have:
1) open or semi-open world, with various interesting little locations to explore, also location design;
2) very good graphic and character design (mood and feel of the original was greatly enhanced by both remarkably designed, unique characters and area design);
3) great music and sound, which is a crucial component of setting the mood;
4) not very verbose, but still quite thorough and interesting, often cinematic dialogues (Malkavian dialogue was great, fuck naysayers, it had tons of little callbacks to lore and metaplot, among other things);
5) overall dark mood and adult themes in both environmental storytelling, dialogues and plot;
6) decent-to-good popamole combat, with a preference to stealth ambushes and/or combat avoidance.

In DX:HR Eidos Montreal managed to pull off decent atmosphere (it wasn't as good as original HR, of course, but whatchagonnado). It was more of a Ghost in the Shell then Deus, but I'm fine with it. World wasn't open per se, but hubs were big, pretty, and decently designed (I'd prefer them to be bigger and have more content, but, again, oh well). Music was very good. Dialogues were a mixed bag, but way better than in Dragon Age II, which came out in the same year. DX:HR semi-successfully tackled themes of humanism, transhumanism, conspiracies, role of a person in history, etc. And I liked stealth, so sue me.

tl;dr DX:HR was good for what it is, had some similarities with VtM:B, and that's why Eidos Montreal HR's devs are my second choice after CDPR if we are talking about a popamole RPG.

 

[Athelas]

In visual department Obsi never shined, same goes for music and sound.

IIRC several of the artists and animators who worked on Bloodlines joined Obsidian.

I believe they all left by now though.

 

[Roguey]

Let's throw away a system that has been playtested for decades and use some videogame cooldown shit designed in a weekend instead.

All those decades and it's still terrible.

 

[Excidium II]

All those decades and it's still terrible.

Better than anything in videogames. I wonder what you find terrible about it though.

 

[Roguey]

Better than anything in videogames.

All my faith is in Underrail.

 

[Excidium II]

All my faith is in Underrail.

Cooldowns. Bleh. The oddity xp system looks interesting though.

 

[Spectacle]

It really depends on a specific Storyteller. While I can agree that oWoD's combat wasn't as deep (or tedious) as GURPS or Shadowrun, or even ADnD, I've played with some Storytellers who specialized on GMing short combat sessions. We tested many interesting builds, disciplines and so on while playing them, Technocracy VS Changellings VS Garou VS Cainites, etc. etc. Now there were a couple of problems - there were many ways to cheese the fuck out of a system, there were little or no balance between various species' powers, and so on. But it was really fun, and I never forget that one Storyteller who excelled on describing combat situations. Especially he liked describe botches and was very creative in it.
Bloodlines isn't really close to PnP in terms of combat. There's many discrepancies between PnP's and VtM:B's, soak and damage system, healing damage system, skills, and many other moments. It still doesn't make it a bad game, of course.

Of course. It's well known that a sufficiently experienced game master can run Dungeons & Dragons using any game system.

 

[Veelq]

Yeah, and that's why I wrote that I fully understand that I will be stoned. But I mentioned them because while I don't think they are a good fit for a faithful adaptation of PnP mechanics and complexity - I still think that oWoD is very, very hard to translate into CRPG format, both mechanically, in terms of metaplot, and social focus. Maybe Black Isle in its heyday could have managed to pull it off, but none of the contemporary devs.
But. If we're talking about Bloodlines successor specifically, then for the game to be both faithful and good it must have:
1) open or semi-open world, with various interesting little locations to explore, also location design;
2) very good graphic and character design (mood and feel of the original was greatly enhanced by both remarkably designed, unique characters and area design);
3) great music and sound, which is a crucial component of setting the mood;
4) not very verbose, but still quite thorough and interesting, often cinematic dialogues (Malkavian dialogue was great, fuck naysayers, it had tons of little callbacks to lore and metaplot, among other things);
5) overall dark mood and adult themes in both environmental storytelling, dialogues and plot;
6) decent-to-good popamole combat, with a preference to stealth ambushes and/or combat avoidance.

In DX:HR Eidos Montreal managed to pull off decent atmosphere (it wasn't as good as original HR, of course, but whatchagonnado). It was more of a Ghost in the Shell then Deus, but I'm fine with it. World wasn't open per se, but hubs were big, pretty, and decently designed (I'd prefer them to be bigger and have more content, but, again, oh well). Music was very good. Dialogues were a mixed bag, but way better than in Dragon Age II, which came out in the same year. DX:HR semi-successfully tackled themes of humanism, transhumanism, conspiracies, role of a person in history, etc. And I liked stealth, so sue me.

tl;dr DX:HR was good for what it is, had some similarities with VtM:B, and that's why Eidos Montreal HR's devs are my second choice after CDPR if we are talking about a popamole RPG.

what about Sleeping Dogs ? in terms of combat, open world feel mostly

 

[Excidium II]

what about Sleeping Dogs ? in terms of combat, open world feel mostly

Good game.

 

[Zombra]

what about Sleeping Dogs ? in terms of combat, open world feel mostly

Might be OK for a less structured WOD game, but too big and empty for a Bloodlines 2. Bloodlines wasn't completely linear but wasn't really "open world" either. Santa Monica had 3 streets and 10 buildings, and I learned where everything was, knew every alley and every lamppost by the end of the game. Ask me where anything was in Sleeping Dogs and I'd draw a blank, even in the middle of a 40 hour playthrough. A Sleeping Dogs or GTA type world where you're driving between quest markers for 10 minutes and never actually learn your way around ... eh. It's better for a Vampire game to be more "intimate".

As for combat ... I loved the kung fu in Sleeping Dogs, but ... again not really appropriate here methinks.

 

[Excidium II]

Yes the game world should just be a map with multiple hub markers. Open world games makes cities feel too small.

 

[Lurker King]

This hypothetical game is serious business I see... Meh, honestly I think if I had to pick a group/groups to do this... and for whatever reason it had to be first person. I would pick Beth to adapt their shitty engine and then preferably someone else to make the content for the game, maybe even obsidian. That way at least mods could fix the atmosphere and textures.

From the fact that Bloodlines was a first-person game with great graphics and it was an atmospheric game, doesn’t follow that the new WoD game should be first-person with great graphics to be atmospheric. Stasis is an atmospheric game, but doesn’t have TW3 graphics. More than that, a WoD game don’t need to be atmospheric. I would be much happier with a cRPG with decent combat systems, skill checks and good writing, but dated graphics than with a popamole game with awesome graphics and spectacular art direction.

 

[Dreaad]

You aren't going to adapt WoD to have a good "combat systems" because the very nature of the original is that you are a superhuman immortal in a world filled with peons, and the only way to gain more strength is to grow older. I guess they could do the whole, story line over centuries but frankly I know of none who could pull that off competently. Full time authors struggle with stories that have such concepts, let alone game writers.

Skill checks can be done fine by Obsidian as they have proven time and time again.... as long as they are working on an established IP and not trying to reinvent the wheel.

Personally I think even an Alpha Protocol clone would do more justice to a WoD setting that a crpg could. One would hope the combat could be made more interesting through bloodlines and powers though.

 

[Excidium II]

You aren't going to adapt WoD to have a good "combat systems" because the very nature of the original is that you are a superhuman immortal in a world filled with peons, and the only way to gain more strength is to grow older.

That's not true.

 

[Ninjerk]

Yeah, that goes beyond simplification to, "Did you even open the book?"

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

This hypothetical game is serious business I see...

Lol. It does seem funny when you put it like that.

Then again, we're talking about one of the very few remaining IPs that haven't been already castrated by mass market.

But while we're going all theoretical, there's one problem. Who would actually front the money for this hypothetical masterpiece? AAA budgets aren't really Paradox thing. And it needs that kind of budget if its going to be FPP. If its not FPP they can fuck right off, because slutty vampires shoving vaginas in my face doesn't really work in isometric perspective.

 

[ArchAngel]

That's not true.

Yea. Even if he ignore the whole Generation power up, you grow much more powerful with XP. I have no idea what Dreaad is talking about

 

[Dreaad]

Yeah, that goes beyond simplification to, "Did you even open the book?"

I did. Yes it is an oversimplification. However I can say from personal experience, combat sucks balls. Maybe it was the DM of course but I would rather deal with Dark Heresy combat than the shit that is Vampire the Requiem (which is apparently a quicker and more simplified version of the earlier stuff?). From what I've experienced and read I would say 80%+ of the game is based on social interactions, the combat when it happens is a pretty retarded affair, partly because most characters aren't made for combat. (I did find the social 'combat' in Requiem for Rome fairly entertaining though).

I mean even the overall premise of WoD, survival for the sake of survival and what that costs you as a human.... is fairly difficult to translate into non interactive role playing. Instead you end up with: Cain waking up and driving a taxi, blowing up a prince who rules a city and somehow overpowering everyone you meet on you first night of existence as a creature of darkness

 

[Excidium II]

I hate when people say 'WoD' but then it's obvious they are talking just about Vampire.

However I can say from personal experience, combat sucks balls. Maybe it was the DM of course but I would rather deal with Dark Heresy combat than the shit that is Vampire the Requiem (which is apparently a quicker and more simplified version of the earlier stuff?). From what I've experienced and read I would say 80%+ of the game is based on social interactions, the combat when it happens is a pretty retarded affair, partly because most characters aren't made for combat. (I did find the social 'combat' in Requiem for Rome fairly entertaining though).

It's obviously a matter of group composition in that case. In VtM specifically there was the classic problem of old celerity rules granting bonus actions very cheaply, but that's not necessarily a thing anymore.

And I don't see what makes combat more messy than DH, in terms of stats every vampire can be combat capable with minimal investment compared to a failcolyte, and there's much less gear progression.

 

[Ninjerk]

I guess VtR doesn't include diablerie[sic?]? I feel like talking about Fallout with someone and they're bringing up shit that happened in 3.

 

[Dreaad]

I guess VtR doesn't include diablerie[sic?]? I feel like talking about Fallout with someone and they're bringing up shit that happened in 3.

Well regardless of storyline combat sucked in both 1 and 3.

Spoiler

Maybe I'm not qualified to talk, as I clearly haven't read all 200 books or whatever. I will warn you, neither have the developers, whoever they end up being.

 

[Zombra]

I can say from personal experience, [Vampire P&P] combat sucks balls.

It's obviously a matter of group composition in that case.

So Vampire combat is brilliant if you play it like a wargame, but sucks if you play it like an RPG? Pass.

 

[Excidium II]

So Vampire combat is brilliant if you play it like a wargame, but sucks if you play it like an RPG? Pass.

It's not brilliant, it does its job of representing the brutal nature of super powered undead monsters ducking it out. But of course if the group consists of an accountant, a computer engineer, a singer and a hobo taking potshots at each other with .38 revolvers it isn't going to be the most exciting thing to witness.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Why would you ever play without the Wesp patch tho?

I played the game first on release (and was actually somewhat lucky to be able to finish it), there was no Wesp patch then.

I honestly don't remember whether I killed him when I first played the game or not. The thing I remembered the most is that after the fight with that Inquisitor, game fucking hung on me, and I needed to use a console command to force it to transition. After initial release I played only with Wesp's patches (mate's a saint), and beat the game three or four times, so it's kind of a blur what was in original release and what wasn't.

Don't get me wrong, he did a tremendous job on fixing/polishing the game all this years when it comes to bugs and stability but I always had an aversion to fan-based content restoration/change. Granted Wesp didn't do a lot of it during the years (though he had a period where he was changing item placement nearly every patch) but in this case I just don't think you should be able to hurt Werewolf with conventional weapons, it should remain the Soul Reaver type bossfight IMO.

Giving the option to smack the shit out of Werewolf with a pissed off sledgehammer wielding Brujah or tear it to bits with Gangerl Warform is not remaining faithful to dev vision for that encounter as far as I'm concerned.