Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Nas92]

1. Bards are awesome. Their late game Inspire songs and their crowd control spells are a must.
That said, I don't think you should have your main as a bard. I started out disliking Linzi too but then I ended up liking her. It helped that she became a beast and carried me through some of the more annoying fights. There are no good pure arcane casters so I think you should probably go Sorcerer.

2. Animal companions, especially wolves, dogs, smilodons are fucking op. You'll have a ranger party member with an awesome animal companion down the line but it won't hurt to get one on your main too. They're basically fully fledged party members, in fact, you're probably better off using them as damage dealers than dogshit story companions like Amiri.
So my recommendation is basically to go Slyvan Sorcerer. You'll get an arcane caster with an animal companion from day one. That class also fits the story what with the fey shenanigans and all.

Speaking of fey, grab Blind Fight on everyone basically. I didn't and late game was absolute torture for me. So many gaze attacks and concealment spells.
Also make sure to grab Jubilost, the alchemist companion. He can be missed easily, you're supposed to get him in the Troll Trouble chapter. Alchemist is an awesome class, extremely useful for skill checks and in some tougher fights their alchemist bombs make things much easier.

Bard is a great support class but falls off hard from the midgame onwards because you start encountering many enemies that are immune or highly resistant to their best spells, and Dirge of Doom is obsoleted by Frightful Aspect. For this reason it's best to use Linzi early on then ditch her later.

Linzi's songs were extremely useful to me late game. True, her crowd control spells became almost completely useless mid-way through the game.

 

[Yosharian]

1. Bards are awesome. Their late game Inspire songs and their crowd control spells are a must.
That said, I don't think you should have your main as a bard. I started out disliking Linzi too but then I ended up liking her. It helped that she became a beast and carried me through some of the more annoying fights. There are no good pure arcane casters so I think you should probably go Sorcerer.

2. Animal companions, especially wolves, dogs, smilodons are fucking op. You'll have a ranger party member with an awesome animal companion down the line but it won't hurt to get one on your main too. They're basically fully fledged party members, in fact, you're probably better off using them as damage dealers than dogshit story companions like Amiri.
So my recommendation is basically to go Slyvan Sorcerer. You'll get an arcane caster with an animal companion from day one. That class also fits the story what with the fey shenanigans and all.

Speaking of fey, grab Blind Fight on everyone basically. I didn't and late game was absolute torture for me. So many gaze attacks and concealment spells.
Also make sure to grab Jubilost, the alchemist companion. He can be missed easily, you're supposed to get him in the Troll Trouble chapter. Alchemist is an awesome class, extremely useful for skill checks and in some tougher fights their alchemist bombs make things much easier.

Bard is a great support class but falls off hard from the midgame onwards because you start encountering many enemies that are immune or highly resistant to their best spells, and Dirge of Doom is obsoleted by Frightful Aspect. For this reason it's best to use Linzi early on then ditch her later.

Linzi's songs were extremely useful to me late game. True, her crowd control spells became almost completely useless mid-way through the game.

Inspire Courage remains useful all game, but that's not a reason to use Bard over Sensei, which dramatically out-performs Bard in basically every way past like, level 10.

Also there is a really big reason not to use Linzi in the last part of the game =D

Blind Fight is useful on everyone unless you have an alchemist with Echolocation learned. Put that on as many people as you can, then they don't need Blind Fight for them. It's especially important on archers or casters because they really have zero use for Blind Fight other than the gaze immunity.

 

[Piotrovitz]

thanks for all the Highly Informative™ tips bros, I knew I can count on y'all


Looking at the NPC roster and planned party, I'm thinking of either:

1. Val/ES char/Harrim/Ekun/Octavia/Linzi, swapped to Sorc merc at later stage
2. Val/Reg/Nok/Harrim/Octavia/Sorc char

Diff level just one above normal, since I'm still on the learning curve.

Having a hard time cause I want to try ES (main char or Reg) AND Nok AND ranger with pet - not sure how to fit all of them in one party. From what I gathered so far one tank (Val) + one divine + one arcane are a must, at least for noobs like me, so this doesn't leave much room to fiddle, especially if I'd also wanna fit in bard.

Eldritch Scion is average, there is one good build for it but it's highly specialised and you likely won't figure it out on your first playthrough.

Not really looking for uber optimal char here, it's just the idea of having self-buffing frontline warrior/mage hybrid seems fun so I want to give it a try. Regardless of going with main char or Reg I'm thinking of pure ES or 4 lvl dip of DD

Dazzling Display is not particularly optimal.

Is there some catch to it? AoE shaken that triggers shattered defenses buff looks pretty good on paper.

 

[Yosharian]

Eldritch Scion is average, there is one good build for it but it's highly specialised and you likely won't figure it out on your first playthrough.

Not really looking for uber optimal char here, it's just the idea of having self-buffing frontline warrior/mage hybrid seems fun so I want to give it a try. Regardless of going with main char or Reg I'm thinking of pure ES or 4 lvl dip of DD

Dazzling Display is not particularly optimal.

Is there some catch to it? AoE shaken that triggers shattered defenses buff looks pretty good on paper.

Fair enough, Magus is still decent since you get access to Prescient Attack. I wouldn't bother with DD.

Dazzling is bad because you want to be attacking, not using that. Not to mention it's useless once you obtain Prescient Attack. And once you get Frightful Aspect, again it's obsolete.

Dazzle is something Linzi can be doing if you're desperate to use it, but honestly you don't need Shatter Defenses before level 15 anyway

 

[Max Damage]

Valerie is awesome as bard, Linzi is fine too if you build her for melee.

 

[Average Manatee]

If you want the easymode, pets for (almost) everyone + either bows or melee reach weapons to hide behind the pets. The Leopard starts out with absurdly high AC that can trivialize the early game, Smilo with 5 attacks per turn that tears most things apart, dog has constant tripping but only 1 attack early game.

Bards are reasonably good. You need the feat that makes their songs last for 3 turns, aside from that focus them on a bow or reach weapon. They provide a decent amount of useful buffs with their spell list. The name of the game is layering buffs. Don't waste your time at all on a bard with any debuff that the enemy gets a save against, in general they have next to no chance of working unless you've fully specialized in stats/feats/equipment.

Inspire Courage remains useful all game, but that's not a reason to use Bard over Sensei, which dramatically out-performs Bard in basically every way past like, level 10.

There is no sensei companion though, so you have to establish whether we're using respec or mercs. Any characters unlocked past level 2 are otherwise pretty well forced into the build they are in.

 

[Desiderius]

Different locations are suited to different companions (and they all get EXP even when not in the party) so no reason to go with set 6.

Harrim gets +4 stacking AC vs Giants for instance (trolls count) so can tank end dungeons in ch 2 and 4. Sometimes locations will have suggested companions whose abilities are well-suited to the foes there that you can find by mousing over them.

Inspire Courage is better than Dirge in any event (although Inspire Greatness or Heroics may be better depending once they unlock). People used Dirge when they used to stack, but you can get the same effect with Dazzling Display from Val or just Demoralize against tough targets.

Don’t sleep on Fascinate and Fear song either which can be good situationally. If you attack weak saves and use available debuffs there’s no reason her control spells can’t be effective the whole game as long as you don’t expect them to be I Win buttons vs bosses.

She can eventually be party Dispeller as long as you have a back-up plan endgame.

Any class/companion can be effective as the game is about party dynamics more than 6-man soloing.

 

[Nas92]

Different locations are suited to different companions (and they all get EXP even when not in the party) so no reason to go with set 6.

Yeah, I myself always had a rotating party. Some people were mainstays like Valerie who's an amazing tank or Ekun who's just a murder machine and Linzi once I realized how op bards are if you use them correctly. This isn't Baldur's Gate where you're basically forced to pick 6 and go with them for the rest of the game.
That being said I think romances force you to use the romanced NPCs all the time afaik.

Inspire Courage is better than Dirge in any event (although Inspire Greatness or Heroics may be better depending once they unlock).

I love Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics. Turns your party into utter beasts if you use them correctly.
Also Inspire Competence is great when you really want to lame the skill checks. I think it stacks with Guidance and Good Hope too, though I'm not sure.

 

[Haplo]

Dazzling Display is not particularly optimal.

Is there some catch to it? AoE shaken that triggers shattered defenses buff looks pretty good on paper.

It used to be good back when it was a Standard Action. But later it was nerfed to Full Round action, so now its usually 1 round to run into position, 2nd round to trigger (when half the enemies are already dead - and your Dazzler has just wasted 2 full rounds). By the way, Dirge of Doom was also great - until it was nerfed so that Bard Song effects can no longer stack. So now its either Dirge or Inspire Courage.
Anyway, as a result, until you can get Frightful Aspect late game, the solution is the simple single target "Demoralize" action on priority targets.

 

[Haplo]

Eldritch Scion is average, there is one good build for it but it's highly specialised and you likely won't figure it out on your first playthrough.

Not really looking for uber optimal char here, it's just the idea of having self-buffing frontline warrior/mage hybrid seems fun so I want to give it a try. Regardless of going with main char or Reg I'm thinking of pure ES or 4 lvl dip of DD

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

Oh, and don't listen to the haters, Octavia is a great Arcane caster.

 

[Yosharian]

The problem with using Octavia as an arcane caster is you have to put up with Octavia as a person

 

[Nano]

I really wish this game didn't have so many trash mobs. As it is I don't have the energy to touch this game ever again.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

 

[Cael]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

I don't get Magus. You spend 1 round casting a spell so that you can dual-wield it the next round with your weapon in hand? What???

 

[Haplo]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

Sword Saint is rather fine even for noobs - as long as you don't gimp your stats (Strenght focus is better then Dex - the damage dice really scale great with Size & Strenght increasing buffs + Lead Blades), use a nice, high damage weapon (I really like bastard swords - have high damage dice for 1 handed use with Spell Combat - d10 goes 2d8 with Enlarge and 3d8 with Lead Blades wand - and later on really awesome high damage two-handed oversized variants - that go up to 6d8 base damage buffed; fauchards and greataxes are great weapons too, but will disable Spell Combat - and that can be useful early; falcatas are okay, however the top one relies on prior finishing of DLC content separate from main game), maybe dip monk (plus have good Wisdom) for neat AC (and access to further AC boosting items - Lawfull Good alignment is best for that) and remember to buff.

As for the Vivi dip, I don't recommend it. Its a nice damage ramp early, but Vivi is a 3/4 BAB class (same as Magus), so 1 level will add 0 BAB, delaying Extra Attacks and abilities that rely on BAB. Furthermore, as a magus you really want access to better Arcana ASAP - such as abilities that increase the Enchantment level of your weapon, that allow you to target enemy Touch AC, add 2d6 damage from Bane, 2d6 Alignment damage and so on.

In general if you'd be interested in more details about building a Sword Saint, I've made a build some time ago:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...nd-strats-thread.124160/page-113#post-6121550

 

[Haplo]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

I don't get Magus. You spend 1 round casting a spell so that you can dual-wield it the next round with your weapon in hand? What???

Actually, the idea of Spell Combat is that you Attack + cast in the same round.

Furthermore, if the spell you cast is a melee touch attack spell, you can use Spellstrike to deliver it with your weapon, effectively providing another melee attack this round.
Touch of Fatigue cantrip can be used as an ulimited source of +1 attacks each round (albeit Spell Combat incurs a -2 AB penalty and you loose out on the the two-handed stance +50% Str & Power Attack bonus).

 

[Cael]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

I don't get Magus. You spend 1 round casting a spell so that you can dual-wield it the next round with your weapon in hand? What???

Actually, the idea of Spell Combat is that you Attack + cast in the same round.

Furthermore, if the spell you cast is a melee touch attack spell, you can use Spellstrike to deliver it with your weapon, effectively providing another melee attack this round.
Touch of Fatigue cantrip can be used as an ulimited source of +1 attacks each round (albeit Spell Combat incurs a -2 AB penalty and you loose out on the the two-handed stance +50% Str & Power Attack bonus).

I put it once, but all the guy did was cast one turn, attack next turn, cast one turn, attack next turn. I threw her back into the closet in disgust.

 

[Haplo]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

I don't get Magus. You spend 1 round casting a spell so that you can dual-wield it the next round with your weapon in hand? What???

Actually, the idea of Spell Combat is that you Attack + cast in the same round.

Furthermore, if the spell you cast is a melee touch attack spell, you can use Spellstrike to deliver it with your weapon, effectively providing another melee attack this round.
Touch of Fatigue cantrip can be used as an ulimited source of +1 attacks each round (albeit Spell Combat incurs a -2 AB penalty and you loose out on the the two-handed stance +50% Str & Power Attack bonus).

I put it once, but all the guy did was cast one turn, attack next turn, cast one turn, attack next turn. I threw her back into the closet in disgust.

Well, for starters, did you use a one-handed weapon with offhand free?
The other thing is that Spell Combat is a Full round action, so doesn't play particularly nice with movement. Personally I recommend using Charge into Spell Combat as a gap closer. Otherwise use it only if the enemy is near (within 5ft) or when you're already engaged in melee. It gets better if you go the Strenght route and use Size increasing effects - as they also increase your attack reach.

 

[Nas92]

Oh, and don't listen to the haters, Octavia is a great Arcane caster.

I could never make her work. I followed the standard Arcane Trickster build because I was told that's optimal for her. The result was that she was outclassed as a caster by my sorcerer, as a rogue by Nok-Nok and basically I ended up only using her early on when there was no other choice and for her companion quests.

In general if you'd be interested in more details about building a Sword Saint, I've made a build some time ago:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...nd-strats-thread.124160/page-113#post-6121550

That's an interesting build, but bastard swords are super rare early on and you don't even get that many outside of artisan rewards later on either. I ended up buying Valerie that one magic bastard sword at the general store in the capital because I just couldn't find a better one in the wild.

 

[Serus]

The problem with using Octavia as an arcane caster is you have to put up with Octavia as a person

This the issue with some of Owlcat's recruited NPCs in general, isn't it? This is another thing i blame Bioware for: introducing to CRPG genre annoying or outright unlikable party members. Before Bioware you usually had full party creation or they had either too little personality for that or were well written and not annoying. Owlcat as many others just doubled down on Bioware "approach".
Other than that, Octavia mechanically is solid and so is the super annoying midget bard, even more so. (Almost?) all companions seem to be decent enough mechanically, at least all i tried (no Conan in skirt for me for exemple). If Owlcat coud make them as good writing-wise as stat-wise they'd be all ok.

 

[Serus]

Oh, and don't listen to the haters, Octavia is a great Arcane caster.

I could never make her work. I followed the standard Arcane Trickster build because I was told that's optimal for her. The result was that she was outclassed as a caster by my sorcerer, as a rogue by Nok-Nok and basically I ended up only using her early on when there was no other choice and for her companion quests.
...

Sorcerers are supposedly very strong in this game but if you don't want to make one then she is more than sufficient.

 

[Nas92]

The problem with using Octavia as an arcane caster is you have to put up with Octavia as a person

This the issue with some of Owlcat's recruited NPCs in general, isn't it? This is another thing i blame Bioware for: introducing to CRPG genre annoying or outright unlikable party members. Before Bioware you usually had full party creation or they had either too little personality for that or were well written and not annoying. Owlcat as many others just doubled down on Bioware "approach".

I've read a theory that Owlcat writes their characters based on annoying tabletop player types. In WOTR Arueshalae being the DM's gf, Greybor the resident edgelord, Regill the competent player who is also probably a Codex lurking fascist and so on. Octavia and Regongar are further proof of this theory, I can just picture the people who play them. Some nerd couple irl, the woman is probably either fat or Auschwitz mode skinny with dyed hair of course and they're both brain broken by watching too much hentai or maybe they're just aware of the memes, hence the elf - orc angle. Hell, I think there were two very similar characters in Critical Role, one of them actually being an orc magus. It's uncanny.

Sorcerers are supposedly very strong in this game but if you don't want to make one then she is more than sufficient.

True, but an Arcane Trickster has enough advantages that it would have enough use cases even with a sorcerer already being present. The spell sneak attack being one of them, but it's way too unreliable in my experience.

 

[Yosharian]

The problem with using Octavia as an arcane caster is you have to put up with Octavia as a person

This the issue with some of Owlcat's recruited NPCs in general, isn't it?

I mean kinda, but Octavia is particularly annoying

 

[Cael]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

I don't get Magus. You spend 1 round casting a spell so that you can dual-wield it the next round with your weapon in hand? What???

Actually, the idea of Spell Combat is that you Attack + cast in the same round.

Furthermore, if the spell you cast is a melee touch attack spell, you can use Spellstrike to deliver it with your weapon, effectively providing another melee attack this round.
Touch of Fatigue cantrip can be used as an ulimited source of +1 attacks each round (albeit Spell Combat incurs a -2 AB penalty and you loose out on the the two-handed stance +50% Str & Power Attack bonus).

I put it once, but all the guy did was cast one turn, attack next turn, cast one turn, attack next turn. I threw her back into the closet in disgust.

Well, for starters, did you use a one-handed weapon with offhand free?
The other thing is that Spell Combat is a Full round action, so doesn't play particularly nice with movement. Personally I recommend using Charge into Spell Combat as a gap closer. Otherwise use it only if the enemy is near (within 5ft) or when you're already engaged in melee. It gets better if you go the Strenght route and use Size increasing effects - as they also increase your attack reach.

Yes. I was using that Magus one-hander (I think it was a scimitar? I forgot). The bugger was casting right in everyone's faces, which was hilarious in itself.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

I don't get Magus. You spend 1 round casting a spell so that you can dual-wield it the next round with your weapon in hand? What???

Actually, the idea of Spell Combat is that you Attack + cast in the same round.

Furthermore, if the spell you cast is a melee touch attack spell, you can use Spellstrike to deliver it with your weapon, effectively providing another melee attack this round.
Touch of Fatigue cantrip can be used as an ulimited source of +1 attacks each round (albeit Spell Combat incurs a -2 AB penalty and you loose out on the the two-handed stance +50% Str & Power Attack bonus).

I put it once, but all the guy did was cast one turn, attack next turn, cast one turn, attack next turn. I threw her back into the closet in disgust.

Well, for starters, did you use a one-handed weapon with offhand free?
The other thing is that Spell Combat is a Full round action, so doesn't play particularly nice with movement. Personally I recommend using Charge into Spell Combat as a gap closer. Otherwise use it only if the enemy is near (within 5ft) or when you're already engaged in melee. It gets better if you go the Strenght route and use Size increasing effects - as they also increase your attack reach.

Yes. I was using that Magus one-hander (I think it was a scimitar? I forgot). The bugger was casting right in everyone's faces, which was hilarious in itself.

Spell combat is a modal ability. Did you turn it on?