Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Haplo]

Oh, and don't listen to the haters, Octavia is a great Arcane caster.

I could never make her work. I followed the standard Arcane Trickster build because I was told that's optimal for her. The result was that she was outclassed as a caster by my sorcerer, as a rogue by Nok-Nok and basically I ended up only using her early on when there was no other choice and for her companion quests.

Well, she has the same effective spell access as a Sorcerer. Less slots and not Spontaneous. On the other hand, can apply Metamagic effects without making casting a Full-Round affair (rods do that as well, but she can stack those effects better) and gets to add sneak attack dice to rays whenever you target an enemy that is engaged by 2 melees or Blinded (Glitterdust!) or Feared or something. Including cantrip spam to somewhat contribute even in the most mundane encounters. Later on, she gets to aoe add sneak attack dice to groups of enemies with Impromptu Sneak Attack and Surprise spells. Particularly nice for spells like Ice Storm - damage of which can more then double. But also nice for more high-end spells.

Spoiler

She doesn't really compete with Nok-Nok in any way. However Nok-Nok is made of wet tissue paper and any half-competent Vivisectionist build will put him to shame.

In general if you'd be interested in more details about building a Sword Saint, I've made a build some time ago:

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...nd-strats-thread.124160/page-113#post-6121550

That's an interesting build, but bastard swords are super rare early on and you don't even get that many outside of artisan rewards later on either. I ended up buying Valerie that one magic bastard sword at the general store in the capital because I just couldn't find a better one in the wild.

There's a fairly early +4 artisan bastard sword, a +5 from a big puzzle quest. But most importantly, Chapter 4 and Amiri's questline offers a total of 3 great oversized Bastard Swords. They are two-handed, but when you finally get them, its generally better to skip Spell Combat and grab the weapon two-handed for the Strenght and Power Attack bonuses anyway. Having a weapon that can reach 6d8 (base!) damage feels really good....

 

[Nas92]

To get the artisan bastard sword would require rushing the territory, the artisan quests and the rankups. You'd also need to know what are the parameters to actually get it are and then wait until the artisan randomly decides to give that item to you.
Which puzzle quest gives you a +5 bastard sword? I must have missed that one.
Also Chapter 4 is really late game to get all that nice gear, that's why I actually had to switch Amiri's weapons around and then just stopped using her altogether. Doesn't help that Amiri's base build is meant for tabletop, not Owlcat op trashmob encounter design.

 

[Haplo]

To get the artisan bastard sword would require rushing the territory, the artisan quests and the rankups. You'd also need to know what are the parameters to actually get it are and then wait until the artisan randomly decides to give that item to you.
Which puzzle quest gives you a +5 bastard sword? I must have missed that one.
Also Chapter 4 is really late game to get all that nice gear, that's why I actually had to switch Amiri's weapons around and then just stopped using her altogether. Doesn't help that Amiri's base build is meant for tabletop, not Owlcat op trashmob encounter design.

With some metaknowledge, I'd rush Sahiya's quest & Relations anyway. Most of the early good weapons come from her. Including Serpent Prince Fauchard, which is one of the best damage dealing weapons in the game, period. As well as some neat falcatas.
Of course, Oppressor is not guaranteed.

Ravenna's Kiss is obtained from The Ravenous Queen puzzle quest
https://pathfinderkingmaker.fandom.com/wiki/The_Ravenous_Queen
Granted, the quest is a pain in the ass.

Then there is the awesome looking Unstoppable Khanda +4 from Act 5. Huge style points! Also very nice for those high end Persuasion checks that shower you with xp.

Early on, the selection is not great. But a Masterwork Bastard was enough to one-shot the Act 1 boss with an Enlarged, Leaded Sword Saint Spellstrike crit...

Amiri is so-so. Gets much better once you unlock higher level Rage Powers, including Pounce. And maybe if you use a reach weapon (fauchard? ) to attack from behind a tank.
My solution to make her useful was to give her some levels in Freebooter Ranger. Unlimited Untyped buffs are pretty awesome!

 

[mediocrepoet]

To get the artisan bastard sword would require rushing the territory, the artisan quests and the rankups. You'd also need to know what are the parameters to actually get it are and then wait until the artisan randomly decides to give that item to you.
Which puzzle quest gives you a +5 bastard sword? I must have missed that one.
Also Chapter 4 is really late game to get all that nice gear, that's why I actually had to switch Amiri's weapons around and then just stopped using her altogether. Doesn't help that Amiri's base build is meant for tabletop, not Owlcat op trashmob encounter design.

Oh I don't know... Amiri's build is perfect, imo.

"Hey, watch me solo this! Don't get anywhere near me!" *Amiri immediately explodes*

 

[Yosharian]

Just use a mod to buy the weapons you need. Life is too fucking short to waste time trying to get RNGJesus to bless you with the right fucking weapon from that twat artisan

 

[Nas92]

I'm fairly certain that it was a conscious decision on Owlcat's part to limit the amount of good companion appropriate weapons early game, for the martial companions that is. I recall not managing to find a good scimitar for Regongar either. As for scythes for Jaethal, don't even get me started. By the time I encountered like a +2 scythe, she had been equipped with a bog standard masterwork scythe for ages. I actually had to use non weapon focus weapons for all my melee characters for a time and I even picked greatclub weapon focus for Amiri because her +1 sword was doing jack squat and I was getting a bunch of +2 and +3 greatclubs.

 

[Haplo]

I'm fairly certain that it was a conscious decision on Owlcat's part to limit the amount of good companion appropriate weapons early game, for the martial companions that is. I recall not managing to find a good scimitar for Regongar either. As for scythes for Jaethal, don't even get me started. By the time I encountered like a +2 scythe, she had been equipped with a bog standard masterwork scythe for ages. I actually had to use non weapon focus weapons for all my melee characters for a time and I even picked greatclub weapon focus for Amiri because her +1 sword was doing jack squat and I was getting a bunch of +2 and +3 greatclubs.

You get a +2 scimmy pretty early AFAIR (with some bonus for maguses). Trouble is with their later progression.

Good early weapons mostly come from artisans, which of course means they rely on RNG and often, on metaknowlege. With the exception of longbows, dueling swords and greataxes.

 

[Litmanen]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

I don't get Magus. You spend 1 round casting a spell so that you can dual-wield it the next round with your weapon in hand? What???

Actually, the idea of Spell Combat is that you Attack + cast in the same round.

Furthermore, if the spell you cast is a melee touch attack spell, you can use Spellstrike to deliver it with your weapon, effectively providing another melee attack this round.
Touch of Fatigue cantrip can be used as an ulimited source of +1 attacks each round (albeit Spell Combat incurs a -2 AB penalty and you loose out on the the two-handed stance +50% Str & Power Attack bonus).

I put it once, but all the guy did was cast one turn, attack next turn, cast one turn, attack next turn. I threw her back into the closet in disgust.

Look, I'm completely unable to memorize and spoil RPGs' dynamics and make battles quick (that's why I takes me ages to finish a game) but one of the only things I remember is that I could have my magus melee attack+spell in the same moment and it was actually very powerful (especially if you crit).

So, If I can, everyone can.

 

[Yosharian]

Ekun gets a bow more or less straight away that pretty much takes you all the way to endgame

Meanwhile some weapons have literally nothing decent until you're in chapter 5

 

[Piotrovitz]

re mods - is there anything worthwhile/mandatory, especially for virgin playthrough? QoL/bug fixes/rebalance etc etc?

 

[Yosharian]

re mods - is there anything worthwhile/mandatory, especially for virgin playthrough? QoL/bug fixes/rebalance etc etc?

I mean I have a full list on my steam page

there's a couple on there I definitely wouldn't play without

 

[Serus]

Ekun gets a bow more or less straight away that pretty much takes you all the way to endgame

Meanwhile some weapons have literally nothing decent until you're in chapter 5

There was a mod to add real crafting for Kingmaker but it probably makes it too easy.

 

[Yosharian]

Ekun gets a bow more or less straight away that pretty much takes you all the way to endgame

Meanwhile some weapons have literally nothing decent until you're in chapter 5

There was a mod to add real crafting for Kingmaker but it probably makes it too easy.

Yeah that mod is really only useful for upgrading weapons/armor from +3 to +5 etc, the other stuff you can do is insanely OP because it doesn't understand how to quantify existing enchantments

And armor pieces have no limit at all so you can just keep putting enchantments on them lmao

Still, being able to upgrade the base enchantment of items is incredibly useful considering there's no magic weapon spell in the game

 

[Desiderius]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

Magus pretty much requires TB if you want to get the most out of it. I know there are some who play the class without using Spellstrike/Spell Combat at all but that seems like missing the point.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm fairly certain that it was a conscious decision on Owlcat's part to limit the amount of good companion appropriate weapons early game, for the martial companions that is. I recall not managing to find a good scimitar for Regongar either. As for scythes for Jaethal, don't even get me started. By the time I encountered like a +2 scythe, she had been equipped with a bog standard masterwork scythe for ages. I actually had to use non weapon focus weapons for all my melee characters for a time and I even picked greatclub weapon focus for Amiri because her +1 sword was doing jack squat and I was getting a bunch of +2 and +3 greatclubs.

You get a +2 scimmy pretty early AFAIR (with some bonus for maguses). Trouble is with their later progression.

Good early weapons mostly come from artisans, which of course means they rely on RNG and often, on metaknowlege. With the exception of longbows, dueling swords and greataxes.

They rely on… good Kingmaking!

Literally the name of the game.

However Nok-Nok is made of wet tissue paper and any half-competent Vivisectionist build will put him to shame.

lol, no

Vivi is fine utility class, but if your Nok-nok is wet tissue you’re doing it wrong. Debilitating Strike!

 

[Nas92]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

Magus pretty much requires TB if you want to get the most out of it. I know there are some who play the class without using Spellstrike/Spell Combat at all but that seems like missing the point.

This game really entered into a league of its own after toggleable turn-based mode came into play. I can't even imagine how fucking frustrating some of the fights could have been without turn-based mode to at least allow you to understand what's going on before you get rekt 5 times.

Vivi is fine utility class, but if your Nok-nok is wet tissue you’re doing it wrong. Debilitating Strike!

Nok-Nok is a bit fragile, not nearly as fragile as Jubilost who is the ultimate glass cannon. Debilitating Strike is fucking op, I also like Crippling Strike, especially useful against some of the beefier melee enemies.

 

[Yosharian]

I mean Vivi is a bit more than a utility class

 

[Desiderius]

I mean Vivi is a bit more than a utility class

That was the week one take.

Since you get that utility from Jub along with the Bomb-specific items in KM it turned out to be superfluous. Eldritch Scoundrel runs rings around Vivi outside the utility.

Nok-Nok is a bit fragile

There's no reason for Nok-nok to be fragile with his infinite DEX as long as Reduce Person is properly kept up on him. The bigger die on the Sneaks and DEX-to-damage cancels any downside.

Soloing Ch3 boss:



Rare Blade Sense sighting (there's a certain fight in Ch5 where it's a life saver):

 

[Cael]

Sword Saint is much better IMO. And even regular Magus, if you want to lean more on the casting aspect. But ES can be good enough as well.

yeah, was thinking about going with SS, but it seems to be less noob-friendly than magus and I don't want to fuck myself over with gimped build and ragequit mid game.

OTOH, is there any reason not to take 1 lvl dip of Vivi on melee off tank/dps chars?
mutagen and 1d6 sneak attack (+another 1d6 from ASA feat) hugely ramped up Amiri's dmg potential, but maybe it's because I'm still very early in the game?

I don't get Magus. You spend 1 round casting a spell so that you can dual-wield it the next round with your weapon in hand? What???

Actually, the idea of Spell Combat is that you Attack + cast in the same round.

Furthermore, if the spell you cast is a melee touch attack spell, you can use Spellstrike to deliver it with your weapon, effectively providing another melee attack this round.
Touch of Fatigue cantrip can be used as an ulimited source of +1 attacks each round (albeit Spell Combat incurs a -2 AB penalty and you loose out on the the two-handed stance +50% Str & Power Attack bonus).

I put it once, but all the guy did was cast one turn, attack next turn, cast one turn, attack next turn. I threw her back into the closet in disgust.

Well, for starters, did you use a one-handed weapon with offhand free?
The other thing is that Spell Combat is a Full round action, so doesn't play particularly nice with movement. Personally I recommend using Charge into Spell Combat as a gap closer. Otherwise use it only if the enemy is near (within 5ft) or when you're already engaged in melee. It gets better if you go the Strenght route and use Size increasing effects - as they also increase your attack reach.

Yes. I was using that Magus one-hander (I think it was a scimitar? I forgot). The bugger was casting right in everyone's faces, which was hilarious in itself.

Spell combat is a modal ability. Did you turn it on?

Yes.

 

[Cael]

To get the artisan bastard sword would require rushing the territory, the artisan quests and the rankups. You'd also need to know what are the parameters to actually get it are and then wait until the artisan randomly decides to give that item to you.
Which puzzle quest gives you a +5 bastard sword? I must have missed that one.
Also Chapter 4 is really late game to get all that nice gear, that's why I actually had to switch Amiri's weapons around and then just stopped using her altogether. Doesn't help that Amiri's base build is meant for tabletop, not Owlcat op trashmob encounter design.

Oh I don't know... Amiri's build is perfect, imo.

"Hey, watch me solo this! Don't get anywhere near me!" *Amiri immediately explodes*

I actually made Amiri into a Dragon Disciple (for the Strength bonus) via Eldritch Scion and used her as my General. Give her a +Cha item and she can cast basic buff spells on herself. It was pretty funny seeing her fight Armagh (and win!) with Haste, Invisibility, Enlarge, etc. on. Gave her that +4 trident and Bladeguard buckler to get it done.

 

[Desiderius]

To get the artisan bastard sword would require rushing the territory, the artisan quests and the rankups. You'd also need to know what are the parameters to actually get it are and then wait until the artisan randomly decides to give that item to you.
Which puzzle quest gives you a +5 bastard sword? I must have missed that one.
Also Chapter 4 is really late game to get all that nice gear, that's why I actually had to switch Amiri's weapons around and then just stopped using her altogether. Doesn't help that Amiri's base build is meant for tabletop, not Owlcat op trashmob encounter design.

Oh I don't know... Amiri's build is perfect, imo.

"Hey, watch me solo this! Don't get anywhere near me!" *Amiri immediately explodes*

I actually made Amiri into a Dragon Disciple (for the Strength bonus) via Eldritch Scion and used her as my General. Give her a +Cha item and she can cast basic buff spells on herself. It was pretty funny seeing her fight Armagh (and win!) with Haste, Invisibility, Enlarge, etc. on. Gave her that +4 trident and Bladeguard buckler to get it done.

Yeah I beat him the playthrough that she was Defender of the True World Druid (with help from her pet I think?), but she and Val are supposed to get their comeuppance in their cutscene fights. Not very woke!

It's a weird situation that once you've mastered the tactics of the game her base class gets much better so I'd say that straight-up Barb with Inspire Ferocity and 2-Hander Cleave feats is probably her strongest build since all the Rage Powers scale by class level as long as you know how to catch aggro on your tank and/or a pet or two. For first playthrough Freebooter helps keep her out of melee (although the AoE effect works pre-combat) since Move Action Freebooter's Bane keeps her out of melee for a round.



She can also wear the Relic Smilo armor to good effect:



Once you have a good feel for the game she'll be your big hitter until Ekun shows up, and maybe after that:

 

[roshan]

Yikes. Why are the screenshots being posted on this thread so ugly? Does the entire game look like this?

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah that mod is really only useful for upgrading weapons/armor from +3 to +5 etc, the other stuff you can do is insanely OP because it doesn't understand how to quantify existing enchantments

And armor pieces have no limit at all so you can just keep putting enchantments on them lmao

Still, being able to upgrade the base enchantment of items is incredibly useful considering there's no magic weapon spell in the game

I actually rather liked it. As long as you don't enable any of the cheat options. Mainly because crafting takes time. A long time if you're trying to cover multiple characters. It's fun to come back to the capital after a long excursion to hit up your crafting merc, collect new equipment, and place new orders. You also don't get to use your item while its being upgraded, so that adds extra decision complexity.

Price-wise by default its actually the same price as the equipment would have cost coming from a merchant. I checked a few complex crafted items against their normal counterparts and it held out. It is effectively undercosted since you can decide on exactly what you want, most unique items have their price bloated by extraneous bonuses you don't need. And the items sell for what it cost to craft so you're basically able to transmute gold back and forth.

There's definitely a few OP things though. Celestial Mithral full plate has like +8 max dex bonus or something stupid. Crafting brilliant energy +5 weapons with multiple elemental 1d6s is overpowering. Crafting items with castable spells is probably the most broken for how its priced, can give yourself stuff like 6x casts of haste per day on an item for way too cheap very early, along with letting your martials take advantage of normally caster-only spells. Also all the rods you could want.

Still, it kind of feels fair just because this is how artisan crafting *should* have worked. I'm the god damn king you make what I tell you to make. Yes I get better stuff by the mid to late game but I also use the mod that increases difficulty scaling as the game progresses so its kind of quasi-fair.

 

[Haplo]

I mean Vivi is a bit more than a utility class

That was the week one take.

Since you get that utility from Jub along with the Bomb-specific items in KM it turned out to be superfluous. Eldritch Scoundrel runs rings around Vivi outside the utility.

Jub's Bombs are nice for bosses, but rather too valuable to use on trash mobs. I prefer Vivi for all-round efficiency.
Though I suppose things might be a wee bit different now, when all enemies are no longer 100% perma-shaken due to Dirge and Dazzle nerfs.

There's no reason for Nok-nok to be fragile with his infinite DEX as long as Reduce Person is properly kept up on him. The bigger die on the Sneaks and DEX-to-damage cancels any downside.

Soloing Ch3 boss:

View attachment 59575

Rare Blade Sense sighting (there's a certain fight in Ch5 where it's a life saver):

View attachment 59576

IDK. Maybe its also his terrible Fort & Will saves, alongside bad HP and barely so-so AC. I know that he was the most vulnerable character in my party, by far. The weak link that'd fold over whenever enemies look funny his way.
Amiri's AC might suck, but at least she has solid HP & Fort. More importantly she's Enlarged, with increased reach, so mostly stays out of enemy melee attack range. She's A LOT more durable then Nok-Nok.

 

[Haplo]

To get the artisan bastard sword would require rushing the territory, the artisan quests and the rankups. You'd also need to know what are the parameters to actually get it are and then wait until the artisan randomly decides to give that item to you.
Which puzzle quest gives you a +5 bastard sword? I must have missed that one.
Also Chapter 4 is really late game to get all that nice gear, that's why I actually had to switch Amiri's weapons around and then just stopped using her altogether. Doesn't help that Amiri's base build is meant for tabletop, not Owlcat op trashmob encounter design.

Oh I don't know... Amiri's build is perfect, imo.

"Hey, watch me solo this! Don't get anywhere near me!" *Amiri immediately explodes*

I actually made Amiri into a Dragon Disciple (for the Strength bonus) via Eldritch Scion and used her as my General. Give her a +Cha item and she can cast basic buff spells on herself. It was pretty funny seeing her fight Armagh (and win!) with Haste, Invisibility, Enlarge, etc. on. Gave her that +4 trident and Bladeguard buckler to get it done.

Hah, jolly good!

Not that its necessary. A couple points in UMD and some srcolls laying unproductively in your backpack is all it takes for her to dominate the Armag fight.
I was rather shocked that he missed all his attacks on her.

Spoiler

Even after she was cutscene paralyzed.