Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Mr. Magniloquent]

For the price of one character you get a damn near full wizard that can DC cast just fine. The best blaster. Boss slayer. A skill monkey. Scout. Party face. You can even back-up heal in a pinch via UMD and cleric scrolls wands. Kingmaker throws so many consumables at you that you'll get great mileage out of that UMD. One of my biggest heartbreaks about Kingmaker is that you can't get 10 levels of Scroll Savant and 10 Levels of AT. I know it would be a bit of a pointlessly late bloomer, but still. Build-porn. The few weaknesses the prestige class has can be overcome by selecting the option to have the skill check user take all the XP. Spell Specialization comes to the rescue for your clutch spell(s), and it upgrades with you the whole way. This class is my beloved. The only one that has ever come close to it for me is the Shadow Adept from 3.5E.

Except you don't have the spell slots to carry that character unless you take another full arcane caster to cover buffs. And if you do that then you have to compare it to martial builds who do this much better.

Seriously, if you want consistent damage for trash fights, take Sylvan sorcerer. The pet will contribute far more with zero spell slot investment than your sneak attack dice ever would, never even mind the lost level of spellcasting.

You have confused me. AT is only 1 spell level behind, which means you are only 1-2 casts per day fewer. Arcane Tricksters are not for buffing others and spells are never for trash mobs in a vancian system. Spells are for tide turning. Especially in a game like KM whose focus on attrition plays to every weakness the wizard has. That's why mixing in rogue skills is so wonderful for it. They redeems that member slot from being a carry with questionable return. The sea of consumables lets them operate on more than just cantrips or failing with a ranged weapon. This is one more way in which the sneak attack helps you get more mileage on low level scrolls, especially if you're using Scroll Savant. Scroll Savant is a hard trade though. It's a bit of a gamble or an expense, and those fewer feats really hurt. It's a tremendous help and QoL improvement for wizards in Kingmaker though.

 

[Average Manatee]

You have confused me. AT is only 1 spell level behind, which means you are only 1-2 casts per day fewer.

You're losing all those spell slots that you are devoting to attacking.

Arcane Tricksters are not for buffing others and spells are never for trash mobs in a vancian system. Spells are for tide turning. Especially in a game like KM whose focus on attrition plays to every weakness the wizard has.

Well apparently you're the exact opposite of Cael then who thinks the point of ATs are for spamming spells at trash mobs. Because otherwise he takes an hour to defeat them.

Your best spells are barely made better by AT. AT adds +24.5 damage at its highest on a sneak attack. But if you didn't have AT your +1 spell level on an empowered/maximized spell will give you at least +9 damage (max/emp 1d6) and +dmg/dice equipment adds at least another 2 for a total of 11 damage lost from the -1 CL. So overall with sneak attack on the AT a non-AT is only 13.5 damage lower for your best blasting spells. Do you actually think 13.5 damage matters on spells that are dealing 200+ damage? That's a 6.75% damage increase.

That's why mixing in rogue skills is so wonderful for it. They redeems that member slot from being a carry with questionable return. The sea of consumables lets them operate on more than just cantrips or failing with a ranged weapon.

Uhh, what rogue skills? You know that 1 level of wizard lets you use all arcane items right? And that anyone can take use magic device?

The *only* thing AT changes skill-wise is ranged trap disarming which is useful in about 2 places in the game.

This is one more way in which the sneak attack helps you get more mileage on low level scrolls, especially if you're using Scroll Savant. Scroll Savant is a hard trade though. It's a bit of a gamble or an expense, and those fewer feats really hurt. It's a tremendous help and QoL improvement for wizards in Kingmaker though.

Or just take sylvan sorcerer whose pet will add more damage per round with its own turn separate from yours. You're also either getting more spell slots (vs AT wiz) or higher CL (vs. AT sorcerer).

 

[mediocrepoet]

You have confused me. AT is only 1 spell level behind, which means you are only 1-2 casts per day fewer.

You're losing all those spell slots that you are devoting to attacking.

Arcane Tricksters are not for buffing others and spells are never for trash mobs in a vancian system. Spells are for tide turning. Especially in a game like KM whose focus on attrition plays to every weakness the wizard has.

Well apparently you're the exact opposite of Cael then who thinks the point of ATs are for spamming spells at trash mobs. Because otherwise he takes an hour to defeat them.

Your best spells are barely made better by AT. AT adds +24.5 damage at its highest on a sneak attack. But if you didn't have AT your +1 spell level on an empowered/maximized spell will give you +9 damage and +dmg/dice equipment adds at least another 2 for a total of 11 damage lost from the AT level. So overall with sneak attack on the AT a non-AT is only 13.5 damage lower for your best blasting spells. Do you actually think 13.5 damage matters on spells that are dealing 200+ damage? That's a 6.75% damage increase.

That's why mixing in rogue skills is so wonderful for it. They redeems that member slot from being a carry with questionable return. The sea of consumables lets them operate on more than just cantrips or failing with a ranged weapon.

Uhh, what rogue skills? You know that 1 level of wizard lets you use all arcane items right? And that anyone can take use magic device?

The *only* thing AT changes skill-wise is ranged trap disarming which is useful in about 2 places in the game.

This is one more way in which the sneak attack helps you get more mileage on low level scrolls, especially if you're using Scroll Savant. Scroll Savant is a hard trade though. It's a bit of a gamble or an expense, and those fewer feats really hurt. It's a tremendous help and QoL improvement for wizards in Kingmaker though.

Or just take sylvan sorcerer whose pet will add more damage per round with its own turn separate from yours. You're also either getting more spell slots (vs AT wiz) or higher CL (vs. AT sorcerer).

Some people play for fun, some people play because they really love spreadsheets.

 

[Desiderius]

Spell progression is much more important than casts.

Sorc AT would be two levels behind getting every new spell level, plus Surprise Spells would unlock a level later too.

 

[Cael]

You have confused me. AT is only 1 spell level behind, which means you are only 1-2 casts per day fewer.

You're losing all those spell slots that you are devoting to attacking.

Arcane Tricksters are not for buffing others and spells are never for trash mobs in a vancian system. Spells are for tide turning. Especially in a game like KM whose focus on attrition plays to every weakness the wizard has.

Well apparently you're the exact opposite of Cael then who thinks the point of ATs are for spamming spells at trash mobs. Because otherwise he takes an hour to defeat them.

Your best spells are barely made better by AT. AT adds +24.5 damage at its highest on a sneak attack. But if you didn't have AT your +1 spell level on an empowered/maximized spell will give you +9 damage and +dmg/dice equipment adds at least another 2 for a total of 11 damage lost from the AT level. So overall with sneak attack on the AT a non-AT is only 13.5 damage lower for your best blasting spells. Do you actually think 13.5 damage matters on spells that are dealing 200+ damage? That's a 6.75% damage increase.

That's why mixing in rogue skills is so wonderful for it. They redeems that member slot from being a carry with questionable return. The sea of consumables lets them operate on more than just cantrips or failing with a ranged weapon.

Uhh, what rogue skills? You know that 1 level of wizard lets you use all arcane items right? And that anyone can take use magic device?

The *only* thing AT changes skill-wise is ranged trap disarming which is useful in about 2 places in the game.

This is one more way in which the sneak attack helps you get more mileage on low level scrolls, especially if you're using Scroll Savant. Scroll Savant is a hard trade though. It's a bit of a gamble or an expense, and those fewer feats really hurt. It's a tremendous help and QoL improvement for wizards in Kingmaker though.

Or just take sylvan sorcerer whose pet will add more damage per round with its own turn separate from yours. You're also either getting more spell slots (vs AT wiz) or higher CL (vs. AT sorcerer).

Some people play for fun, some people play because they really love spreadsheets.

The last minor ones that that idiot belongs to just want to put people down because they don't play the way he THINKS the game should be played. And since they are always imagining nonsense, the way they play is invariably stupid, retarded and full of dramaqueenery.

 

[Cael]

AT lets you have the most important features of two of the most important classes at very nearly base class effectiveness. The way they programmed Ranged Legerdemain allows you reattempt failed lock-picks, not that you will very often. Surprise spells needs no elaboration. Impromptu Sneak Attack and Invisible Thief gives you extra ways to apply sneak attack. These are handy because since the adventuring day often occurs over small areas with 1-2 encounters, you won't necessarily want to use your extended improved invisibility willy-nilly. Invisible Thief is also a great escape. Sneak attack damage takes time to add up, but it greatly helps overcome the deficit created in 3E by HP values doubling. When paired with spells that have multiple touch attacks, it's devastating. One spell that doesn't get enough attention for this is Battering Blast.

For the price of one character you get a damn near full wizard that can DC cast just fine. The best blaster. Boss slayer. A skill monkey. Scout. Party face. You can even back-up heal in a pinch via UMD and divine scrolls and wands. Kingmaker throws so many consumables at you that you'll get great mileage out of that UMD. One of my biggest heartbreaks about Kingmaker is that you can't get 10 levels of Scroll Savant and 10 Levels of AT. I know it would be a bit of a pointlessly late bloomer, but still. Build-porn. The few weaknesses the prestige class has can be overcome by selecting the option to have the skill check user take all the XP. Spell Specialization comes to the rescue for your clutch spell(s), and it upgrades with you the whole way. This class is my beloved. The only one that has ever come close to it for me is the Shadow Adept from 3.5E.

AT is fun so long as you have something that can get around the 2d6 Sneak Attack requirement. In 3.5, you need to rely on multiclass shenannigans to get it (usually Daggerspell Mage), but Pathfinder allows you to get past it with a feat, which is much better.

The upshot of it is basically a swashbuckling rogue type character with a magical bent. On tabletop, it opens up a whole host of fun, off-the-wall stuff that can drive a certain kind of DM utterly crazy. You should try the Explosive Rune trapped backpack someday. The bad guy was wondering why my character was grinning ear-to-ear when he opened my backpack to search for loot about a split second before he got splattered against the far wall. I mean, seriously, which crazy sorcerer would spend a spell known slot on Explosive Runes???

 

[Average Manatee]

The last minor ones that that idiot belongs to just want to put people down because they don't play the way he THINKS the game should be played. And since they are always imagining nonsense, the way they play is invariably stupid, retarded and full of dramaqueenery.

Whiny bitch with no arguments. If you want to argue that a class is good at something then you need to present facts rather than retreat into "muh opinion" cowardice.

 

[Cael]

The last minor ones that that idiot belongs to just want to put people down because they don't play the way he THINKS the game should be played. And since they are always imagining nonsense, the way they play is invariably stupid, retarded and full of dramaqueenery.

Whiny bitch with no arguments. If you want to argue that a class is good at something then you need to present facts rather than retreat into "muh opinion" cowardice.

I did. You same up with a lame "You suck!" and ran away because your shifting goalpost was pointed out. This is the same as you crying about how facing doesn't work in Battletech, when entire hit location tables were created to take into account facing. You make up stuff and tilt at it, and then try to hold every one to your made up stuff. It is childish, retarded and fucking HILARIOUS!

 

[Average Manatee]

AT builds are literally objectively sub optimal. Cry more.

Hilarious that you remember an argument over battle tech where you were also objectively wrong

 

[InD_ImaginE]

You have confused me. AT is only 1 spell level behind, which means you are only 1-2 casts per day fewer.

You're losing all those spell slots that you are devoting to attacking.

Arcane Tricksters are not for buffing others and spells are never for trash mobs in a vancian system. Spells are for tide turning. Especially in a game like KM whose focus on attrition plays to every weakness the wizard has.

Well apparently you're the exact opposite of Cael then who thinks the point of ATs are for spamming spells at trash mobs. Because otherwise he takes an hour to defeat them.

Your best spells are barely made better by AT. AT adds +24.5 damage at its highest on a sneak attack. But if you didn't have AT your +1 spell level on an empowered/maximized spell will give you +9 damage and +dmg/dice equipment adds at least another 2 for a total of 11 damage lost from the AT level. So overall with sneak attack on the AT a non-AT is only 13.5 damage lower for your best blasting spells. Do you actually think 13.5 damage matters on spells that are dealing 200+ damage? That's a 6.75% damage increase.

That's why mixing in rogue skills is so wonderful for it. They redeems that member slot from being a carry with questionable return. The sea of consumables lets them operate on more than just cantrips or failing with a ranged weapon.

Uhh, what rogue skills? You know that 1 level of wizard lets you use all arcane items right? And that anyone can take use magic device?

The *only* thing AT changes skill-wise is ranged trap disarming which is useful in about 2 places in the game.

This is one more way in which the sneak attack helps you get more mileage on low level scrolls, especially if you're using Scroll Savant. Scroll Savant is a hard trade though. It's a bit of a gamble or an expense, and those fewer feats really hurt. It's a tremendous help and QoL improvement for wizards in Kingmaker though.

Or just take sylvan sorcerer whose pet will add more damage per round with its own turn separate from yours. You're also either getting more spell slots (vs AT wiz) or higher CL (vs. AT sorcerer).

Some people play for fun, some people play because they really love spreadsheets.

Microsoft Excel is the ultimate RPG expression

 

[InD_ImaginE]

For real tho, this game is not something you need OMEGA OPTIMIZE in. So long your build thematically make sense and you have fun playing it by all means. In Hard nearly anything can work still after you are Level 6/7 so long you don't do some stupid shit like having a Cleric 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2 or some shit like that.

In the term of pure optimization sure AT might not all be that good but it works as a concept if you want. Sorcerer AT is awful due to losing levels of spell progression vs Wizard AT but it is a 6 men party game. You can very well have another arcane caster in the team for buffing/CC duties using their actually high level spells while your Sorc AT use metamagic and metamagic wands to blast shit out. You can treat Sorc AT more like a rogue (hell Octavia with all the Sneak Attack Dice and a bit of buffing + decent equipment can shoot trash mob to death with a decent bow, you don't always need to use your precious Ray Touch spells) than Arcane caster. You yourself can be a Wizard and do the high level shit.

There is a difference between "This build is utter garbage", "This is playable but not optimum", "This is some ultra good build that will make Desi and Haplo blush". You don't need to do the build always on the last one.

 

[Cael]

For real tho, this game is not something you need OMEGA OPTIMIZE in. So long your build thematically make sense and you have fun playing it by all means. In Hard nearly anything can work still after you are Level 6/7 so long you don't do some stupid shit like having a Cleric 2/Fighter 2/Ranger 2 or some shit like that.

In the term of pure optimization sure AT might not all be that good but it works as a concept if you want. Sorcerer AT is awful due to losing levels of spell progression vs Wizard AT but it is a 6 men party game. You can very well have another arcane caster in the team for buffing/CC duties using their actually high level spells while your Sorc AT use metamagic and metamagic wands to blast shit out. You can treat Sorc AT more like a rogue (hell Octavia with all the Sneak Attack Dice and a bit of buffing + decent equipment can shoot trash mob to death with a decent bow, you don't always need to use your precious Ray Touch spells) than Arcane caster. You yourself can be a Wizard and do the high level shit.

There is a difference between "This build is utter garbage", "This is playable but not optimum", "This is some ultra good build that will make Desi and Haplo blush". You don't need to do the build always on the last one.

I am sure that the idiot solves all traps and stuff by throwing the animal companion at it as well. The guy is a joke and has been for years. he has no idea how to play games for fun. He only goes for what he believes to be optimum and if the rules doesn't support it, he demands that the rules be ignored or changed. What an utter joke of a waste of oxygen.

 

[Max Damage]

I wouldn't make AT myself, but I appreciated Octavia getting rerols on lockpicking. Sorc AT does sound dreadful, it really isn't worth being 2 CL behind the progression just for a bit more damage and minor utility.

 

[Cael]

I wouldn't make AT myself, but I appreciated Octavia getting rerols on lockpicking. Sorc AT does sound dreadful, it really isn't worth being 2 CL behind the progression just for a bit more damage and minor utility.

DnD CRPG tend to have lack of useful spells issue. Because of that, it makes wizards less of an advantage over sorcerer. That is why, in most cases, it is better to be a sorcerer than a wizard, just for the extra spell slots. Pathfinder basically gave the sorcerer extra bonuses on top of the traditional 3.x.

The silly part is, you're not 2 CL behind. You're the same CL as a wizard AT. That doesn't change at all. You are also only 1 CL behind a full caster, regardless of whether wizard or sorcerer. What you are talking about is being behind when getting a new level of spells. That is not CL. You see, this is the problem I have with dramaqueens. They are invariably retards who deliberately misconstrue things and tilt at windmills as a result.

In a party, you are going to require a rogue for trap finding and the like. Why not make it a AT?

 

[Max Damage]

Wizard is better than sorc at getting full use of metamagic (not limited by spontaneous metamagic taking full action), that includes blasting things into oblivion. CL indeed wasn't the right point of reference, I meant to say that AT Sorc is behind on spell progression and slots, and on top of that you lose on spells/other features Sorc gets from just staying pure. It's not something horrible like trying to make Mystic Theurge from beginning, and you do get arcane caster who can also deal with traps/chests, but unless you REALLY like spontaneous spellcasting and REALLY don't have a spot for one of many classes who bring the utility w/o sactificing anything for it: why bother?

 

[Yosharian]

AT Sorc is pretty dumb, just make a normal Sorc and destroy the game using stuff like Icy Prison and Weird

 

[Cael]

Wizard is better than sorc at getting full use of metamagic (not limited by spontaneous metamagic taking full action), that includes blasting things into oblivion. CL indeed wasn't the right point of reference, I meant to say that AT Sorc is behind on spell progression and slots, and on top of that you lose on spells/other features Sorc gets from just staying pure. It's not something horrible like trying to make Mystic Theurge from beginning, and you do get arcane caster who can also deal with traps/chests, but unless you REALLY like spontaneous spellcasting and REALLY don't have a spot for one of many classes who bring the utility w/o sactificing anything for it: why bother?

If you are making an AT, talking about pure class is absurd, to put it politely.

Having played with a AT, I'd say that it is great at removing the trash mobs while nuking the hell out of the main guy at the same time. And an Int-based Evil caster does have the extra advantage of that damned staff.

 

[Max Damage]

AT is its own thing, focused on blasting + minor utility + sneak damage on cantrips/Scorching Ray when you don't want to use your big damage spells yet, yes. Using Sorcerer as base for AT over Wizard still doesn't make much sense, the +1 damage per die is ok I guess, but you still bottleneck your damage per round due to metamagic taking full round when it matters. Being one level behind on spell progression matters much more for AT Sorc than Wizard, AT doesn't benefit much from spontaneous spellcasting, and your crowd control suffers from being behind on the curve, both spells and lack of DC bonus from bloodline, so you have to commit to underwhelming build compared to AT Wizard.

 

[Cael]

AT is its own thing, focused on blasting + minor utility + sneak damage on cantrips/Scorching Ray when you don't want to use your big damage spells yet, yes. Using Sorcerer as base for AT over Wizard still doesn't make much sense, the +1 damage per die is ok I guess, but you still bottleneck your damage per round due to metamagic taking full round when it matters. Being one level behind on spell progression matters much more for AT Sorc than Wizard, AT doesn't benefit much from spontaneous spellcasting, and your crowd control suffers from being behind on the curve, both spells and lack of DC bonus from bloodline, so you have to commit to underwhelming build compared to AT Wizard.

You keep saying minor utility, when AT actually gives the most skill points of any class, being Int-based and having a higher base skill point/level. Finding and disarming traps is not a major thing in your worldview, then? Be as it may, I like to keep to the classic 4 functions when I can when making a party. AT is the party rogue, basically.

I don't think the Sage sorcerer gets the +1 damage per die thing. That is a dragon bloodline thing, I believe, and it wasn't part of my consideration anyway.

 

[Max Damage]

By minor utility I meant getting infinite tries on lockpicking (granted, I personally like that one a lot), since disarming traps can be covered by many classes, but as I said before, having trap specialist who also happens to have access to spellcasting isn't bad, I just don't think Sorcerer is a good base for AT. Sage Sorc probably has best synergy due to being INT based + that one staff, but still doesn't get over the bottleneck of full round metamagic, and is 1 level behind Wizard on spells/slots. I'd just bite the bullet and take Trickery skill focus on non-AT Sorc instead.

 

[Average Manatee]

I am sure that the idiot solves all traps and stuff by throwing the animal companion at it as well. The guy is a joke and has been for years. he has no idea how to play games for fun. He only goes for what he believes to be optimum and if the rules doesn't support it, he demands that the rules be ignored or changed. What an utter joke of a waste of oxygen.

Bro, you criticize me for optimizing, then accuse me of using a method of trap disarming that would rob me of 50 XP per trap? Go sit in timeout and think about what you've done.

AT Sorc is pretty dumb, just make a normal Sorc and destroy the game using stuff like Icy Prison and Weird

I wouldn't make AT myself, but I appreciated Octavia getting rerols on lockpicking. Sorc AT does sound dreadful, it really isn't worth being 2 CL behind the progression just for a bit more damage and minor utility.

Let's do some math though, just for fun. Let's consider fairly lategame, level 16 Sorc w/ element damage bloodline vs. level 10 AT/1 rogue/5 wiz. Casting stormbolts, no equipment, emp+max

Sorc: 16d12 = 288 + 16 = 304 damage
AT: 15d12 = 270 + 24.5 = 294.5 damage

So we're at the literal apogee of AT, where its the strongest at blasting and has acquired the last of its powerful abilities, and it's still weaker than a basic bitch sorcerer. This is the best case scenario for a lategame AT without including equipment that adds +damage/dice which helps the sorcerer more. The sorcerer has more spells per day. The only advantage of the AT is not needing a full round action for metamagic.

The takeaway is that if you're making a blaster and actually want to maximize damage then you're better off being a sorcerer than an AT. The only time you should be an AT is if its in addition to sorcerer. Which does indeed do dreadful things to your spell progression.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I am sure that the idiot solves all traps and stuff by throwing the animal companion at it as well. The guy is a joke and has been for years. he has no idea how to play games for fun. He only goes for what he believes to be optimum and if the rules doesn't support it, he demands that the rules be ignored or changed. What an utter joke of a waste of oxygen.

Bro, you criticize me for optimizing, then accuse me of using a method of trap disarming that would rob me of 50 XP per trap? Go sit in timeout and think about what you've done.

AT Sorc is pretty dumb, just make a normal Sorc and destroy the game using stuff like Icy Prison and Weird

I wouldn't make AT myself, but I appreciated Octavia getting rerols on lockpicking. Sorc AT does sound dreadful, it really isn't worth being 2 CL behind the progression just for a bit more damage and minor utility.

Let's do some math though, just for fun. Let's consider fairly lategame, level 16 Sorc w/ element damage bloodline vs. level 10 AT/1 rogue/5 wiz. Casting stormbolts, no equipment, emp+max

Sorc: 16d12 = 288 + 16 = 304 damage
AT: 15d12 = 270 + 24.5 = 294.5 damage

So we're at the literal apogee of AT, where its the strongest at blasting and has acquired the last of its powerful abilities, and it's still weaker than a basic bitch sorcerer. This is the best case scenario for a lategame AT without including equipment that adds +damage/dice which helps the sorcerer more. The sorcerer has more spells per day. The only advantage of the AT is not needing a full round action for metamagic.

The takeaway is that if you're making a blaster and actually want to maximize damage then you're better off being a sorcerer than an AT. The only time you should be an AT is if its in addition to sorcerer. Which does indeed do dreadful things to your spell progression.

The takeaway is that you gain a bunch of utility and flavour for 10 damage which is basically nothing.

 

[Average Manatee]

The takeaway is that you gain a bunch of utility and flavour for 10 damage which is basically nothing.

The utility is... getting 25 damage cantrips? That's also basically nothing. What isn't nothing is getting 50% more casts per day though.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The takeaway is that you gain a bunch of utility and flavour for 10 damage which is basically nothing.

The utility is... getting 25 damage cantrips? That's also basically nothing. What isn't nothing is getting 50% more casts per day though.

Skills and rogue utility. I mean, at least try to think first.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Sorc AT is not good. The progession is too slow. The end. You don't get any base class feature progression benefits as a tradeoff, metmagic spells are slower to cast, you can do less metamagic because of the slowed progression, they don't have the INT synergy to capitalize on being a skill monkey, and sorc is even more feat starved than wizard. The damage increase from SA matters. Your full SA is added to each touch attack, so at Level 12 your Sorching Ray is 3(4d6+5d6). That's huge. Only 1 level behind a straight wizard but over doubled the damage. SA dice are not chump damage.

AT plays like a normal wizard in combat with nice removal and a few tricks. Out of combat it plays like a rogue. It's all about versatility, but it doesn't lose any power. I argue that it is more powerful than an ordinary wizard. Its biggest problem is being feat starved.