Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

I mean Vivi is a bit more than a utility class

That was the week one take.

Since you get that utility from Jub along with the Bomb-specific items in KM it turned out to be superfluous. Eldritch Scoundrel runs rings around Vivi outside the utility.

Jub's Bombs are nice for bosses, but rather too valuable to use on trash mobs. I prefer Vivi for all-round efficiency.
Though I suppose things might be a wee bit different now, when all enemies are no longer 100% perma-shaken due to Dirge and Dazzle nerfs.

There's no reason for Nok-nok to be fragile with his infinite DEX as long as Reduce Person is properly kept up on him. The bigger die on the Sneaks and DEX-to-damage cancels any downside.

Soloing Ch3 boss:

View attachment 59575

Rare Blade Sense sighting (there's a certain fight in Ch5 where it's a life saver):

View attachment 59576

IDK. Maybe its also his terrible Fort & Will saves, alongside bad HP and barely so-so AC. I know that he was the most vulnerable character in my party, by far. The weak link that'd fold over whenever enemies look funny his way.
Amiri's AC might suck, but at least she has solid HP & Fort. More importantly she's Enlarged, with increased reach, so mostly stays out of enemy melee attack range. She's A LOT more durable then Nok-Nok.

Once he gets a hit in at full BAB he’s getting attacked at -4AB at lvl 4, -6AB at lvl 10, and -8AB at lvl 16. With Double Debilitation at lvl 10 his attacks get same benefit, outpacing Mutagen bonus, while also boosting whole team.

Reduce is as valuable for tanking as Enlarge is for different reasons. I know you rely on dice-multiplying for damage so maybe you were trying to Enlarge him? He’s perfectly set-up as a Knife-Master not to need it. With extra skills from Rogue he can even cast some scrolls (12 base INT).

Fort saves don’t come up all that much due to Delay Poison (Ghost Mages need to be interrupted when casting Plague Storm).

The key to Jub is using Tanglefoot Bombs to manage battlefield and apply Entangle AoE. You get enough to use Bombs as main attack if you don’t use Fast Bombs. Still have Blind and Curse bombs vs foes with weak Fort or Will saves but big hitters typically have low Reflex.

Controller more than Damager (Ekun/Jae can do plenty of damage from range along with Amiri on two-hander).

 

[Haplo]

I mean Vivi is a bit more than a utility class

That was the week one take.

Since you get that utility from Jub along with the Bomb-specific items in KM it turned out to be superfluous. Eldritch Scoundrel runs rings around Vivi outside the utility.

Jub's Bombs are nice for bosses, but rather too valuable to use on trash mobs. I prefer Vivi for all-round efficiency.
Though I suppose things might be a wee bit different now, when all enemies are no longer 100% perma-shaken due to Dirge and Dazzle nerfs.

There's no reason for Nok-nok to be fragile with his infinite DEX as long as Reduce Person is properly kept up on him. The bigger die on the Sneaks and DEX-to-damage cancels any downside.

Soloing Ch3 boss:

View attachment 59575

Rare Blade Sense sighting (there's a certain fight in Ch5 where it's a life saver):

View attachment 59576

IDK. Maybe its also his terrible Fort & Will saves, alongside bad HP and barely so-so AC. I know that he was the most vulnerable character in my party, by far. The weak link that'd fold over whenever enemies look funny his way.
Amiri's AC might suck, but at least she has solid HP & Fort. More importantly she's Enlarged, with increased reach, so mostly stays out of enemy melee attack range. She's A LOT more durable then Nok-Nok.

Once he gets a hit in at full BAB he’s getting attacked at -4AB at lvl 4, -6AB at lvl 10, and -8AB at lvl 16. With Double Debilitation at lvl 10 his attacks get same benefit, outpacing Mutagen bonus, while also boosting whole team.

Not that many fights are 1-on-1 duels though.

 

[Average Manatee]

Not that many fights are 1-on-1 duels though.

Yeah, it's a huge weakness of that ability. And you need an ally with you in the first place (most of the time) to get a sneak attack, so you have to do some very specific micro if its a 2v2 fight where you sneak attack one dude that is attacking you, but do it next to your ally, all the while you make sure the ally holds aggro of the other character.

 

[Desiderius]

I mean Vivi is a bit more than a utility class

That was the week one take.

Since you get that utility from Jub along with the Bomb-specific items in KM it turned out to be superfluous. Eldritch Scoundrel runs rings around Vivi outside the utility.

Jub's Bombs are nice for bosses, but rather too valuable to use on trash mobs. I prefer Vivi for all-round efficiency.
Though I suppose things might be a wee bit different now, when all enemies are no longer 100% perma-shaken due to Dirge and Dazzle nerfs.

There's no reason for Nok-nok to be fragile with his infinite DEX as long as Reduce Person is properly kept up on him. The bigger die on the Sneaks and DEX-to-damage cancels any downside.

Soloing Ch3 boss:

View attachment 59575

Rare Blade Sense sighting (there's a certain fight in Ch5 where it's a life saver):

View attachment 59576

IDK. Maybe its also his terrible Fort & Will saves, alongside bad HP and barely so-so AC. I know that he was the most vulnerable character in my party, by far. The weak link that'd fold over whenever enemies look funny his way.
Amiri's AC might suck, but at least she has solid HP & Fort. More importantly she's Enlarged, with increased reach, so mostly stays out of enemy melee attack range. She's A LOT more durable then Nok-Nok.

Once he gets a hit in at full BAB he’s getting attacked at -4AB at lvl 4, -6AB at lvl 10, and -8AB at lvl 16. With Double Debilitation at lvl 10 his attacks get same benefit, outpacing Mutagen bonus, while also boosting whole team.

Not that many fights are 1-on-1 duels though.

Not that many non-bosses should be able to hit him with mid-40s AC by midgame if you’ve got decent debuffs going.

 

[Desiderius]

Not that many fights are 1-on-1 duels though.

Yeah, it's a huge weakness of that ability. And you need an ally with you in the first place (most of the time) to get a sneak attack, so you have to do some very specific micro if its a 2v2 fight where you sneak attack one dude that is attacking you, but do it next to your ally, all the while you make sure the ally holds aggro of the other character.

It… isn’t hard at all in vanilla where you don’t even have to flank to flank but of course flat-footed also works and there are a lot of ways to get that, and he still gets (very high) DEX to damage along with all the other damage buffs on his infinite attacks, all but the first of which get the huge Debilitating to hit bonus.

See pic above where he’s using a summon to solo a boss. Just have to use decent tactics. There are a few Barb bosses with Improved Uncanny that are Sneak immune.

 

[Yosharian]

I heard that Double Debilitation isn't working correctly

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/4362376876606975632/

Otherwise yes it's true that Disorienting Injury is quite powerful for tanking, however I use Mutagen to boost damage, not AC. I don't really care how much AC my Vivi has because Vivi is a striker, not a tank.

Oh also another comment in that thread is suggesting that the scaling on all the Debilitating effects can stop working but I'm not sure how correct that is, I don't really like pure Rogue so I haven't tested it much

But anyway yeah Eldritch Scoundrel is pretty good, but it's highly debatable whether it's in the same league as Sword Saint

 

[DannyRope]

Yeah, I don't know about Double Debilitation in WotR but I can confirm that in Kingmaker it doesn't work properly most of the time, either it applies only one of the two toggled debuffs at random or none at all. So, essentially you spent an Advanced Rogue Talent to make the character worse. And since Kingmaker no longer receives support it will remain broken. I hope that if Owlcat makes a third Pathfinder game in the future, they'll take the lesson of not going wide but instead narrowing their focus to make fewer Classes and Subclasses with features that work properly. Sometimes less is more and all that jazz. However, one has to be realistic about these things.

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah, I don't know about Double Debilitation in WotR but I can confirm that in Kingmaker it doesn't work properly most of the time, either it applies only one of the two toggled debuffs at random or none at all. So, essentially you spent an Advanced Rogue Talent to make the character worse. And since Kingmaker no longer receives support it will remain broken. I hope that if Owlcat makes a third Pathfinder game in the future, they'll take the lesson of not going wide but instead narrowing their focus to make fewer Classes and Subclasses with features that work properly. Sometimes less is more and all that jazz. However, one has to be realistic about these things.

If only modders fixed things like this instead of wasting their time adding 10000 new classes to the game

 

[Desiderius]

I heard that Double Debilitation isn't working correctly

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/4362376876606975632/

Otherwise yes it's true that Disorienting Injury is quite powerful for tanking, however I use Mutagen to boost damage, not AC. I don't really care how much AC my Vivi has because Vivi is a striker, not a tank.

Oh also another comment in that thread is suggesting that the scaling on all the Debilitating effects can stop working but I'm not sure how correct that is, I don't really like pure Rogue so I haven't tested it much

But anyway yeah Eldritch Scoundrel is pretty good, but it's highly debatable whether it's in the same league as Sword Saint

You can’t be serious. Damage should be coming out your ears already. Mutagen is… two damage. This makes no sense. Bite doesn’t use weapon and is secondary attk (-5 AB and only triggers on Full Attack).

Mutagen is a solid if unspectacular ability that gets pretty good once you’re making use of all
modes, but stat boosts are misleading because the scale has been diluted compared to comparable games.

 

[Desiderius]

Sword Saint has the same 3/4 AB with no help issue as Vivi does, then people stacking Spell Combat and Fighting Defensively malus on top of that and get themselves in trouble.

Saint was great for Haplo because Perfect Crit works so well with his strategy but it got a lot of people into bad habits and was a poor fit for newbs.

Scoundrel breaks the Sneak Limit with Vitals + inherent and gets the Illusion defenses Vivi lacks. It gets better utility* than Saint, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and of course full (Double) Debilitating along with other Advanced Rogue talents.

And of course Trapfinding.

* - Vivi can share a few key Personal spells but Scoundrel gets a much broader spellbook than either one and can even branch out into some control and nukes

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I am amazed that you guys don't like Arcane Tricksters. Its one if the best prestige classes ever. Its a bit of a long wait for surprise spells, but the payoff is magical. In the meantime you still get killer touch spells and a single character that is a full wizard and practically a full rogue. It's the ultimate MC. What helped mine develop faster, is that I had skill XP go to the character.

 

[DannyRope]

Arcane Trickster is probably the only Prestige Class that is worth to take for all its levels, instead of just a dip. It's only that, you know, taking 20 levels in Vivisectionist is simpler and about as powerful if not more. Being able to use self buffs on companions is one hell of a drug.

 

[Average Manatee]

Half the reason to play a Wizard is to have a 1 level advantage on a sorcerer. Actually, it's more like 80% of the reason. By being an AT you throw that away for attack spells that are rarely worth using over buffs. This is especially exaggerated in the early game where literally no one is going to be excited over a single 4d8 touch attack vs. haste doubling your APR. Meanwhile sorcerer has Sylvan Sorcerer which is basically 1.5 classes worth of stuff and will get more spells to use with more buffs.

I'd never say AT is bad, but its far from optimal in most situations and taking advantage of it forces Octavia into side-chick territory when it comes to arcane casting because you do basically need a full dedicated arcane buffer in this game.

As far as prestige classes go EK is pretty decent. Unlike AT playing an EK doesn't force you to compromise your limited spell slots, you simply play a slightly gimped full wizard who can now contribute decently the rest of the time.

 

[Desiderius]

I am amazed that you guys don't like Arcane Tricksters. Its one if the best prestige classes ever. Its a bit of a long wait for surprise spells, but the payoff is magical. In the meantime you still get killer touch spells and a single character that is a full wizard and practically a full rogue. It's the ultimate MC. What helped mine develop faster, is that I had skill XP go to the character.

By the time the payoff shows up additional damage is unnecessary unless you’re soloing. PF has unusually strong Bard but those bonuses (Inspire Courage/Good Hope) do nothing for nukes. Control caster takes better advantage of ruleset.

 

[Yosharian]

Arcane Trickster is probably the only Prestige Class that is worth to take for all its levels, instead of just a dip. It's only that, you know, taking 20 levels in Vivisectionist is simpler and about as powerful if not more. Being able to use self buffs on companions is one hell of a drug.

Ehh there's something to be said for high level spells combined with massive SA damage, I believe Polar Ray can achieve ridiculous damage in KM?

The issue is that KM has massive amounts of trash mobs and you don't really want to have to burn a high level spell every time you want to kill endless Wild Hunt trash mobs

Also bosses are not hard in this game

My next run I am deliberately hamstringing myself with several build rules to see if I can make the game actually challenging

 

[Desiderius]

It’s weird that Octavia discovers the item (and is uniquely set-up to pass the very tough Trickery check to do so) that makes her (mostly) obsolete in her own character quest.

It really pushes Jub over-the-top. They can always be swapped in and out depending once her surprise spells turn on but he has better all-around value.

 

[Desiderius]

Arcane Trickster is probably the only Prestige Class that is worth to take for all its levels, instead of just a dip. It's only that, you know, taking 20 levels in Vivisectionist is simpler and about as powerful if not more. Being able to use self buffs on companions is one hell of a drug.

Ehh there's something to be said for high level spells combined with massive SA damage, I believe Polar Ray can achieve ridiculous damage in KM?

The issue is that KM has massive amounts of trash mobs and you don't really want to have to burn a high level spell every time you want to kill endless Wild Hunt trash mobs

Also bosses are not hard in this game

My next run I am deliberately hamstringing myself with several build rules to see if I can make the game actually challenging

Meta Polar/Hellfire doesn’t need the Sneaks. That’s the point.

 

[Cael]

Surprise Spells apply to ALL HP damage spells, including Chain Lightning. Think about that for the second when you start fighting against trach mobs.

The thing about Arcane Trickster is that there is literally nothing stopping you from using Sorcerer instead of Wizard. Sure, you are 1 level behind, but having used a Lawful Evil Arcane Trickster (Arcana), I can say it is still a ton of fun.

 

[Desiderius]

Surprise Spells apply to ALL HP damage spells, including Chain Lightning. Think about that for the second when you start fighting against trach mobs.

The thing about Arcane Trickster is that there is literally nothing stopping you from using Sorcerer instead of Wizard. Sure, you are 1 level behind, but having used a Lawful Evil Arcane Trickster (Arcana), I can say it is still a ton of fun.

7d6 is 24 expected damage. That’s fine but not game breaking.

 

[Average Manatee]

Surprise Spells apply to ALL HP damage spells, including Chain Lightning. Think about that for the second when you start fighting against trach mobs.

You shouldn't need spells against trash mobs. Certainly you shouldn't be spending chain lightning for it.

The thing about Arcane Trickster is that there is literally nothing stopping you from using Sorcerer instead of Wizard. Sure, you are 1 level behind, but having used a Lawful Evil Arcane Trickster (Arcana), I can say it is still a ton of fun.

Two levels behind wizard now, along with the fact that you lose class features like sylvan pet progression.

 

[Cael]

Surprise Spells apply to ALL HP damage spells, including Chain Lightning. Think about that for the second when you start fighting against trach mobs.

You shouldn't need spells against trash mobs. Certainly you shouldn't be spending chain lightning for it.

The thing about Arcane Trickster is that there is literally nothing stopping you from using Sorcerer instead of Wizard. Sure, you are 1 level behind, but having used a Lawful Evil Arcane Trickster (Arcana), I can say it is still a ton of fun.

Two levels behind wizard now, along with the fact that you lose class features like sylvan pet progression.

I prefer to spend 1 spell than mess around for an hour trying to kill a horde of trash mobs.

+6 to Spell Penetration checks with the right feats and Elf. I prefer my spells not bouncing.

1 level behind a wizard AT, no different to standard wizard vs sorcerer. Saying that it is two levels is an outright lie, especially when I very specifically said that I was talking about AT.

You are playing an AT. Level based base-class features is hardly a consideration. What a retarded reason.

 

[Average Manatee]

I prefer to spend 1 spell than mess around for an hour trying to kill a horde of trash mobs

Dude if its a trash mob it should take 10s under real time.

+6 to Spell Penetration checks with the right feats and Elf. I prefer my spells not bouncing.

What? No one cares.

1 level behind a wizard AT, no different to standard wizard vs sorcerer. Saying that it is two levels is an outright lie, especially when I very specifically said that I was talking about AT.

You are playing an AT. Level based base-class features is hardly a consideration. What a retarded reason.

The question is whether AT is good, not whether your AT is better or worse than another AT. So you are 2 caster levels behind a wizard, and you are losing a pet vs. sylvan sorcerer along with a caster level. Both are awful tradeoffs.

 

[Cael]

I prefer to spend 1 spell than mess around for an hour trying to kill a horde of trash mobs

Dude if its a trash mob it should take 10s under real time.

+6 to Spell Penetration checks with the right feats and Elf. I prefer my spells not bouncing.

What? No one cares.

1 level behind a wizard AT, no different to standard wizard vs sorcerer. Saying that it is two levels is an outright lie, especially when I very specifically said that I was talking about AT.

You are playing an AT. Level based base-class features is hardly a consideration. What a retarded reason.

The question is whether AT is good, not whether your AT is better or worse than another AT. So you are 2 caster levels behind a wizard, and you are losing a pet vs. sylvan sorcerer along with a caster level. Both are awful tradeoffs.

The statement was that you could use a sorcerer instead of a wizard for AT. No one said anything about comparing it with a full wizard. You're swinging at ghosts again, as usual, just for a gotcha. Your entire post is just that. What a waste of time you are.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

AT lets you have the most important features of two of the most important classes at very nearly base class effectiveness. The way they programmed Ranged Legerdemain allows you reattempt failed lock-picks, not that you will very often. Surprise spells needs no elaboration. Impromptu Sneak Attack and Invisible Thief gives you extra ways to apply sneak attack. These are handy because since the adventuring day often occurs over small areas with 1-2 encounters, you won't necessarily want to use your extended improved invisibility willy-nilly. Invisible Thief is also a great escape. Sneak attack damage takes time to add up, but it greatly helps overcome the deficit created in 3E by HP values doubling. When paired with spells that have multiple touch attacks, it's devastating. One spell that doesn't get enough attention for this is Battering Blast.

For the price of one character you get a damn near full wizard that can DC cast just fine. The best blaster. Boss slayer. A skill monkey. Scout. Party face. You can even back-up heal in a pinch via UMD and divine scrolls and wands. Kingmaker throws so many consumables at you that you'll get great mileage out of that UMD. One of my biggest heartbreaks about Kingmaker is that you can't get 10 levels of Scroll Savant and 10 Levels of AT. I know it would be a bit of a pointlessly late bloomer, but still. Build-porn. The few weaknesses the prestige class has can be overcome by selecting the option to have the skill check user take all the XP. Spell Specialization comes to the rescue for your clutch spell(s), and it upgrades with you the whole way. This class is my beloved. The only one that has ever come close to it for me is the Shadow Adept from 3.5E.

 

[Average Manatee]

The statement was that you could use a sorcerer instead of a wizard for AT. No one said anything about comparing it with a full wizard. You're swinging at ghosts again, as usual, just for a gotcha. Your entire post is just that. What a waste of time you are.

Half the reason to play a Wizard is to have a 1 level advantage on a sorcerer. Actually, it's more like 80% of the reason. By being an AT you throw that away for attack spells that are rarely worth using over buffs..

So, you're full of shit.

For the price of one character you get a damn near full wizard that can DC cast just fine. The best blaster. Boss slayer. A skill monkey. Scout. Party face. You can even back-up heal in a pinch via UMD and cleric scrolls wands. Kingmaker throws so many consumables at you that you'll get great mileage out of that UMD. One of my biggest heartbreaks about Kingmaker is that you can't get 10 levels of Scroll Savant and 10 Levels of AT. I know it would be a bit of a pointlessly late bloomer, but still. Build-porn. The few weaknesses the prestige class has can be overcome by selecting the option to have the skill check user take all the XP. Spell Specialization comes to the rescue for your clutch spell(s), and it upgrades with you the whole way. This class is my beloved. The only one that has ever come close to it for me is the Shadow Adept from 3.5E.

Except you don't have the spell slots to carry that character unless you take another full arcane caster to cover buffs. And if you do that then you have to compare it to martial builds who do this much better.

Seriously, if you want consistent damage for trash fights, take Sylvan sorcerer. The pet will contribute far more with zero spell slot investment than your sneak attack dice ever would, never even mind the lost level of spellcasting. You can still hellfire ray bosses just fine while your pet does hundreds of damage per turn, trips, tanks, and more.

Also I think you guys heavily overrate how much AT actually adds to blasting. Once you take into account equipment and metamagic boosting spell damage and making sneak attack damage less impactful you're looking at like 10-15% more damage from sneak attacks. That's just not impressive. In fact if you covered up the console it's possibly not even something you'd notice losing aside from on cantrip spamming.