Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[ArchAngel]

I thought Inquisitor was awful but I'm not a huge PF fan, maybe there's something I'm missing.

My guess is that in pnp inquisitor has same bab as cleric but loses access to lvl 7+ spells. Since in pnp it is all about spells in late game inquisitor does not get enough bonuses.

 

[Cryomancer]

they should have added witch summoner and shifter in addition to those two.
why would you ever ask for less?

I agree. The ideal is "A + B" instead of B or A, but pathfinder has an insane amount of classes. Implement all of then would be an nightmare.

 

[Desiderius]

Magus also gets Holy/Axiomatic (or Anarchic/Unholy, depending on alignment) with Divine Weapon Arcana. Of course, there is a choice involved. You probably want Bane at 15, so at 12 and 18 you need to choose between Divine, Ghost (also includes Brilliant Energy), Dimension Strike (boss killer, resolve attacks as touch for 1 round) - also Spell Blending if you have EA mod (particularly on SS) - but then you can also pick Extra Arcana feats.

Brilliant Energy is not nearly as nice as I had hoped BTW (but Ghost Touch is great late game).

Unless I’m mistaken, you have to spend a feat on enduring (and an arcane point each time) just to get to the paladin base duration.

 

[Desiderius]

I thought Inquisitor was awful but I'm not a huge PF fan, maybe there's something I'm missing.

My guess is that in pnp inquisitor has same bab as cleric but loses access to lvl 7+ spells. Since in pnp it is all about spells in late game inquisitor does not get enough bonuses.

It’s like a divine bard, but without the main thing that makes the bard good (the songs). Too many of the abilities are per round or per battle. You’ve got to want the teamwork feats and the free persuasion/perception.

 

[Desiderius]

I thought Inquisitor was awful but I'm not a huge PF fan, maybe there's something I'm missing.

My guess is that in pnp inquisitor has same bab as cleric but loses access to lvl 7+ spells. Since in pnp it is all about spells in late game inquisitor does not get enough bonuses.

It’s like a divine bard, but without the main thing that makes the bard good (the songs). Too many of the abilities are per round or per battle. You’ve got to want the teamwork feats and the free persuasion/perception and/or domain abilities.

Obv monster tactician and huntmaster are nice at what they do, but mostly not for inquisitor stuff.

 

[Desiderius]

What do you guys do with Jaethal? She seems like she can be so many good things... but then the fact that she can only get healed by negative energy makes me feel like I'm either stuck making her an archer or am forced to make her something Divine so that she can heal herself. Is there anything good about the Inquisitor?

She’s pretty handy with the relic Necro cloak and Cephus’ Staff if you make her a necromancer. Even gets free animate dead to protect herself.

 

[Desiderius]

Hmm I might choose water as second element then, thanks for the tip Haplo

Fire gets the intimidate feat line (dazzling -> carnage) without prereqs. Earth gets trip and greater trip.

 

[Desiderius]

The unique "non D&D 3.5e class" that i liked is Alchemist and Kineticist.

I loved the archetype for some classes and multiple bloodlines for sorcerers, but IMO most PAthfinder exclusive classes are awful. Inquisitor is not that different than a Paladin, Magus requires tons of micromanaging. IMO they should have added Witch, Summoner and Shifter classes instead of this two.

Magi are a lot less annoying when you’re not triggering AoOs all the time. I believe that casting defensively turns on with fighting defensively, which shouldn’t trigger the AoOs. You still have to pass a concentration check for the spell to go through.

This fits with crane style builds or Aldori defender/swordlord abilities to reduce the penalty so it can be left on all the time. Note that Galt Ragout recipe reduces Val’s penalty by two. She’s makes an interesting Scion.

 

[deuxhero]

Adding Summoner would be a pain in the ass. It's literally a class that can grow extra limbs of the player's chosing. Something like Knights of the Chalice II, where everyone is just a still image, could pull it off, but a game using 3D models would have to be built around it.

I thought Inquisitor was awful but I'm not a huge PF fan, maybe there's something I'm missing.

Inquisitor, alongside Shaman, has an unusual position of being a poorly designed class that manages to be powerful because it has a good amount of spellcasting. Judgement and Bane can give them good damage, but both are extremely limited in uses per day (once every three levels and rounds equal to level), terrible for a game with as many fights as this, and both need a swift action to start. Jaethal manages to be even worse since she's locked into an incredibly awful domain choice with the Death domain. An inquisitor wants something that boosts their attack power or gives them a really useful special ability, with stuff like the Anger Inquisition/Destruction domain with the Rage subdomain for RAGE, Animal domain (with Feather subdomain ideally) for an animal companion or something else of similar use. Instead Jaethal took the ability to... cause 1d6 damage a round.

 

[Haplo]

The unique "non D&D 3.5e class" that i liked is Alchemist and Kineticist.

I loved the archetype for some classes and multiple bloodlines for sorcerers, but IMO most PAthfinder exclusive classes are awful. Inquisitor is not that different than a Paladin, Magus requires tons of micromanaging. IMO they should have added Witch, Summoner and Shifter classes instead of this two.

Magi are a lot less annoying when you’re not triggering AoOs all the time. I believe that casting defensively turns on with fighting defensively, which shouldn’t trigger the AoOs. You still have to pass a concentration check for the spell to go through.

This fits with crane style builds or Aldori defender/swordlord abilities to reduce the penalty so it can be left on all the time. Note that Galt Ragout recipe reduces Val’s penalty by two. She’s makes an interesting Scion.

Part of the reason SS tanks are so good. They get an AoO against you? Who cares if they can't hit you.

 

[Haplo]

Magus also gets Holy/Axiomatic (or Anarchic/Unholy, depending on alignment) with Divine Weapon Arcana. Of course, there is a choice involved. You probably want Bane at 15, so at 12 and 18 you need to choose between Divine, Ghost (also includes Brilliant Energy), Dimension Strike (boss killer, resolve attacks as touch for 1 round) - also Spell Blending if you have EA mod (particularly on SS) - but then you can also pick Extra Arcana feats.

Brilliant Energy is not nearly as nice as I had hoped BTW (but Ghost Touch is great late game).

Unless I’m mistaken, you have to spend a feat on enduring (and an arcane point each time) just to get to the paladin base duration.

Not a feat. You spend Magus Arcana - and Magus gets those at levels 3, 6 (Enduring Blade already available), 9 (SS doesn't get this), 12, 15 and 18. With EA mod you can also get Extra Arcana feats. Besides adding those various unique weapon enchants (stuff like elemental, keen, Speed is available by default), you can also get some other stuff, like resolving attacks next round as touch, making enemy flat-footed next round, casting stat added to attack rolls in next round or using some metamagic 3x per day freely. EA adds additional Arcana choices, such as familiar, spell blending (allows learning up to 2 extra mage spells).

 

[Haplo]

Hmm I might choose water as second element then, thanks for the tip Haplo

You want air or fire or you are going to hate end game. Ghosts are immune to physical and cold.

Gah >.> ok, maybe air then.

Air is still physical. Unless you mean Electric. Neither combines with your Earth, though.

I really enjoy Electric Celerity power, but if you have enough other choices of Haste, I hgave to admit that Fire is probably the superior option. Notably it will work with Earth to create Magma Blast. Composite Blade regular attacks cost too much Burn to be useful, BUT Blade Whirlwind always costs 0 Burn, even Composite. And you can aoe Trip with Bowling Whrlwind Magma Blade.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Hmm I might choose water as second element then, thanks for the tip Haplo

You want air or fire or you are going to hate end game. Ghosts are immune to physical and cold.

Gah >.> ok, maybe air then.

Air is still physical. Unless you mean Electric. Neither combines with your Earth, though.

I really enjoy Electric Celerity power, but if you have enough other choices of Haste, I hgave to admit that Fire is probably the superior option. Notably it will work with Earth to create Magma Blast. Composite Blade regular attacks cost too much Burn to be useful, BUT Blade Whirlwind always costs 0 Burn, even Composite. And you can aoe Trip with Bowling Whrlwind Magma Blade.

Holy fuck. I am considering making Valerie into a Kinetic Knight from what I've read, but your statement right there is a good demonstration on why I have difficultly making the choice. The amount of choice is daunting when I am ignorant of exactly what the class is or does. The class is so far removed from any of the conventions that it almost feels like it belongs in a different game.

 

[skaraher]

What could be a good choice of weapon for a bard MC in a support role ? Is it possible to away with a Cleric if you got Sensei Monk or water Kineticist ?

 

[Desiderius]

Hmm I might choose water as second element then, thanks for the tip Haplo

You want air or fire or you are going to hate end game. Ghosts are immune to physical and cold.

Gah >.> ok, maybe air then.

Air is still physical. Unless you mean Electric. Neither combines with your Earth, though.

I really enjoy Electric Celerity power, but if you have enough other choices of Haste, I hgave to admit that Fire is probably the superior option. Notably it will work with Earth to create Magma Blast. Composite Blade regular attacks cost too much Burn to be useful, BUT Blade Whirlwind always costs 0 Burn, even Composite. And you can aoe Trip with Bowling Whrlwind Magma Blade.

Holy fuck. I am considering making Valerie into a Kinetic Knight from what I've read, but your statement right there is a good demonstration on why I have difficultly making the choice. The amount of choice is daunting when I am ignorant of exactly what the class is or does. The class is so far removed from any of the conventions that it almost feels like it belongs in a different game.

I can’t even figure out how to start sorrowflow without hosing myself so bad I get stuck halfway through.

Is it at all practical for Kalikke to melee with that blade she spent a feat on? Can you just fight with a weapon and not use blast at all, or is that wasting a class?

 

[Desiderius]

What could be a good choice of weapon for a bard MC in a support role ? Is it possible to away with a Cleric if you got Sensei Monk or water Kineticist ?

I like to use agile weapons and pick up finesse as a combat trick. You want your bard in the action so her songs hit all the mobs. I’m also liking some of the cone spells. You also want to avoid splashing since song DC is on bard lvl, and her spell progression is slow enough already. I guess as a MC you could splash a monk lvl for crane then use monk weapons.

 

[Desiderius]

What could be a good choice of weapon for a bard MC in a support role ? Is it possible to away with a Cleric if you got Sensei Monk or water Kineticist ?

Jubilost or a decent Druid can cover a lot of the bases, but channeling is handy for topping up. MC hospitaler can handle those duties.

 

[Desiderius]

Magus also gets Holy/Axiomatic (or Anarchic/Unholy, depending on alignment) with Divine Weapon Arcana. Of course, there is a choice involved. You probably want Bane at 15, so at 12 and 18 you need to choose between Divine, Ghost (also includes Brilliant Energy), Dimension Strike (boss killer, resolve attacks as touch for 1 round) - also Spell Blending if you have EA mod (particularly on SS) - but then you can also pick Extra Arcana feats.

Brilliant Energy is not nearly as nice as I had hoped BTW (but Ghost Touch is great late game).

Unless I’m mistaken, you have to spend a feat on enduring (and an arcane point each time) just to get to the paladin base duration.

Not a feat. You spend Magus Arcana - and Magus gets those at levels 3, 6 (Enduring Blade already available), 9 (SS doesn't get this), 12, 15 and 18. With EA mod you can also get Extra Arcana feats. Besides adding those various unique weapon enchants (stuff like elemental, keen, Speed is available by default), you can also get some other stuff, like resolving attacks next round as touch, making enemy flat-footed next round, casting stat added to attack rolls in next round or using some metamagic 3x per day freely. EA adds additional Arcana choices, such as familiar, spell blending (allows learning up to 2 extra mage spells).

That’s what I meant. So Pal more or less has magus arcana with all the choices pre-made, like traditional monk vs monk.

 

[Daidre]

Hmm I might choose water as second element then, thanks for the tip Haplo

You want air or fire or you are going to hate end game. Ghosts are immune to physical and cold.

Gah >.> ok, maybe air then.

Air is still physical. Unless you mean Electric. Neither combines with your Earth, though.

I really enjoy Electric Celerity power, but if you have enough other choices of Haste, I hgave to admit that Fire is probably the superior option. Notably it will work with Earth to create Magma Blast. Composite Blade regular attacks cost too much Burn to be useful, BUT Blade Whirlwind always costs 0 Burn, even Composite. And you can aoe Trip with Bowling Whrlwind Magma Blade.

Air does combain with earth for sand or smth like this. It could even be used in Cloud infusion for double physical. It surprised me a bit when I got Fire > Earth > Air and third element gave me 2 composites Sand and Plasma (Air + Fire).

 

[purpleblob]

Hmm I might choose water as second element then, thanks for the tip Haplo

You want air or fire or you are going to hate end game. Ghosts are immune to physical and cold.

Gah >.> ok, maybe air then.

Air is still physical. Unless you mean Electric. Neither combines with your Earth, though.

I really enjoy Electric Celerity power, but if you have enough other choices of Haste, I hgave to admit that Fire is probably the superior option. Notably it will work with Earth to create Magma Blast. Composite Blade regular attacks cost too much Burn to be useful, BUT Blade Whirlwind always costs 0 Burn, even Composite. And you can aoe Trip with Bowling Whrlwind Magma Blade.

Air does combain with earth for sand or smth like this. It could even be used in Cloud infusion for double physical. It surprised me a bit when I got Fire > Earth > Air and third element gave me 2 composites Sand and Plasma (Air + Fire).

How did you guys learn which combination works better? Just by trial and error or reading some extra material? I feel that the game doesn't provide sufficient info on which element does what :/

 

[skaraher]

I think everyone just spam deadly earth and hope for the best

 

[deuxhero]

I actually used fire/fire. When I hit level 15 (should be soon) I'll retrain her into fire/earth/fire since I'm not really feeling Wall (it's pretty much impossible to figure out where the wall will form).

purpleblob
Use Show Unavailable in the creation/level up menu.

I thought Inquisitor was awful but I'm not a huge PF fan, maybe there's something I'm missing.

My guess is that in pnp inquisitor has same bab as cleric but loses access to lvl 7+ spells. Since in pnp it is all about spells in late game inquisitor does not get enough bonuses.

It’s like a divine bard, but without the main thing that makes the bard good (the songs). Too many of the abilities are per round or per battle. You’ve got to want the teamwork feats and the free persuasion/perception.

Oh yeah, that's another issue they have: The teamwork feats that are actually good (like Broken Wing Gambit and Wounded Paw Gambit) aren't in the game.

 

[Daidre]

How did you guys learn which combination works better? Just by trial and error or reading some extra material? I feel that the game doesn't provide sufficient info on which element does what :/

For me it was lot of testing with lvl 20 mercs in endgame save, d20pfsrd and using table like this one before I decided on build for my full run.

Element affects:
1) Damage type for blast
2) Possible composite of 2 damage types
3) Available form infusions
4) Available Wild Talents

Forms could be a bit tricky without trial and error but Talents always the same standard package.

Main thing about Kineticist imho to start with energy blast to avoid issues with hitting things and this leaves only: Fire, Electricity and Cold. Cold is most resisted so useless.

In result Fire is the best for standard Kineticist for Earth or Air combos for persistent AoE (Deadly Earth or/and Cloud) and Electricity is good for Kinetic Knight since he loses all non-blade AoE anyway.

 

[Desiderius]

I actually used fire/fire. When I hit level 15 (should be soon) I'll retrain her into fire/earth/fire since I'm not really feeling Wall (it's pretty much impossible to figure out where the wall will form).

purpleblob
Use Show Unavailable in the creation/level up menu.

I thought Inquisitor was awful but I'm not a huge PF fan, maybe there's something I'm missing.

My guess is that in pnp inquisitor has same bab as cleric but loses access to lvl 7+ spells. Since in pnp it is all about spells in late game inquisitor does not get enough bonuses.

It’s like a divine bard, but without the main thing that makes the bard good (the songs). Too many of the abilities are per round or per battle. You’ve got to want the teamwork feats and the free persuasion/perception.

Oh yeah, that's another issue they have: The teamwork feats that are actually good (like Broken Wing Gambit and Wounded Paw Gambit) aren't in the game.

Well Outflank might be the best feat period, but after that I have a feeling you need turn-based to get anything out of the rest.

 

[Haplo]

Hmm I might choose water as second element then, thanks for the tip Haplo

You want air or fire or you are going to hate end game. Ghosts are immune to physical and cold.

Gah >.> ok, maybe air then.

Air is still physical. Unless you mean Electric. Neither combines with your Earth, though.

I really enjoy Electric Celerity power, but if you have enough other choices of Haste, I hgave to admit that Fire is probably the superior option. Notably it will work with Earth to create Magma Blast. Composite Blade regular attacks cost too much Burn to be useful, BUT Blade Whirlwind always costs 0 Burn, even Composite. And you can aoe Trip with Bowling Whrlwind Magma Blade.

Air does combain with earth for sand or smth like this. It could even be used in Cloud infusion for double physical. It surprised me a bit when I got Fire > Earth > Air and third element gave me 2 composites Sand and Plasma (Air + Fire).

Ah, right, Sandstorm, forgot that one. Still, Air is not energy, so not that great.