Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Haplo]

Dazzling sucks turn-based, as its a full round action now. One round to move into position, another to execute. Unless you mean Dreadful, but my bards are hardly leading the killing charts.
Anyway who needs Dazzling, when you have Dirge of Doom - no roll Shaken (plus Frightful Aspect on mages and clerics).

I do pick 1 vivi level and Accomplished sneak attacker. There's also the Arcane Strike bonus. And Sense Vitals. I will take 5 attacks per round with the bow (plus mirrored copies) over movement and 1 agile melee attack, thank you. Also the bow gets nice bonuses from special arrows. Got more quivers then item slots. Rose's Thorns seem to boost the damage by a significant amount for example. Ultrasound arrows DOUBLE the number of attacks (but run out quickly).

 

[Desiderius]

All those things were why I made Octavia an archer. Thundering drums is Bowling infusion vs. fortitude tho. You only have to win half the saves to make bard aoe spells great. For dazzling I’m talking about before you get the song and mirror bow and all that other nonsense. You’d spend most of the game subpar.

Vivi splash is so bad for ranged I can’t even, and you blow another precious feat on top of it in a desperate search for a pittance of damage. You’ve got InEffect disease.

Just make Val your Bard with a monk splash for crane and let Linzi be a mad dog or something.

 

[Haplo]

The difference is Octavia can erase encounters with her spells, a bard generally cannot and attacking with a weapon is generally the best he/she can do offense-wise.
Plus Octavia gets unlimited touch attacks with big sneak dice, a typical bard does not.

Dirge of Doom is bard level 8, BTW.
And 2d6 isn't great, but better then nothing. Also it stacks with Sense Vitals.

 

[Desiderius]

The difference is Octavia can erase encounters with her spells, a bard generally cannot and attacking with a weapon is generally the best he/she can do offense-wise.
Plus Octavia gets unlimited touch attacks with big sneak dice, a typical bard does not.

Dirge of Doom is bard level 8, BTW.
And 2d6 isn't great, but better then nothing. Also it stacks with Sense Vitals.

Not really interested in erasing encounters, thx, but we’ve been over that. It does lead to bad habits like a ranged vivi splash.

 

[razvedchiki]

Whats your thoughts on turn based mod with
- closet to tabletop
- arcana
- call of the wild?

 

[razvedchiki]

Lol that +6 anti Undead Cyclops Gabriel Angelos hammer at the entrance to Vordakai is truly an example of kowtowing before casuals.

Stuff like that where also in bg2,wooden stakes in vampire lairs non magical weapons near golems etc.

 

[Shadenuat]

and??

 

[Desiderius]

and??

Probably intended to give the Porkys a fighting chance, but its kind of a trap. It’s a dungeon full of Hargulkas. If your plan is to just slug it out it can be a slog. If you’ve properly disabled them you can finish them off with a Flyswatter and a ranged Bard.

 

[Desiderius]

So what are the consensus must haves at Rushlight? Is Ring of Circumstances worth it? Working?

 

[Haplo]

Ring works and is pretty great. I also like the +6 stat belt.
Rest.. depends on party, I guess. The Greater Kinetic Diadem is great for Kineticists.
Scrolls and rods (like Quicken!) are nice for casters.
The Greater Belt of Physical Components might be nice for Eldritch Scions, I guess.
There's also a nice small shield for finesse shield bashers.

 

[Desiderius]

Ring works and is pretty great. I also like the +6 stat belt.
Rest.. depends on party, I guess. The Greater Kinetic Diadem is great for Kineticists.
Scrolls and rods (like Quicken!) are nice for casters.
The Greater Belt of Physical Components might be nice for Eldritch Scions, I guess.
There's also a nice small shield for finesse shield bashers.

So far Absolver Cloak has been the only must have. Diadem of even more broken.

 

[ArchAngel]

Ring of Circumstance is best item there. Instant +2 to DC of all your spells.

 

[Haplo]

Ring works and is pretty great. I also like the +6 stat belt.
Rest.. depends on party, I guess. The Greater Kinetic Diadem is great for Kineticists.
Scrolls and rods (like Quicken!) are nice for casters.
The Greater Belt of Physical Components might be nice for Eldritch Scions, I guess.
There's also a nice small shield for finesse shield bashers.

So far Absolver Cloak has been the only must have. Diadem of even more broken.

Ah yes, the cloaks are also nice for the relevant alignments.

 

[Desiderius]

Ring of Circumstance is best item there. Instant +2 to DC of all your spells.

Can’t get enough DC and hardest thing to get. I’ve been over 50% on Challenge Evil all game and have landed like two.

 

[Sergiu64]

Where do those rings come from?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

All those things were why I made Octavia an archer. Thundering drums is Bowling infusion vs. fortitude tho. You only have to win half the saves to make bard aoe spells great. For dazzling I’m talking about before you get the song and mirror bow and all that other nonsense. You’d spend most of the game subpar.

Vivi splash is so bad for ranged I can’t even, and you blow another precious feat on top of it in a desperate search for a pittance of damage. You’ve got InEffect disease.

Just make Val your Bard with a monk splash for crane and let Linzi be a mad dog or something.

But you have to deal with having Octavia in your party

 

[razvedchiki]

Any list with all the unique weapons( with the new ones they added with a recent patch).

 

[deuxhero]

The difference is Octavia can erase encounters with her spells, a bard generally cannot and attacking with a weapon is generally the best he/she can do offense-wise.
Plus Octavia gets unlimited touch attacks with big sneak dice, a typical bard does not.

Dirge of Doom is bard level 8, BTW.
And 2d6 isn't great, but better then nothing. Also it stacks with Sense Vitals.

A bard can erase encounters plenty. Just glitterdust and grease will shut down a lot. Problem is the best options to do it on a bard have shitty areas.

 

[Haplo]

That's called control, not erase. And sure he can, but a wizard can generally do that much better. Plus erase later on, particularly with an AT PrC.

 

[Desiderius]

That's called control, not erase. And sure he can, but a wizard can generally do that much better. Plus erase later on, particularly with an AT PrC.

I think all y’all are missing the strongest bard spells. High level Bards are for attacking fortitude, not reflex. If you need to attack reflex throw some force/tanglefoot bombs or drop some pits.

 

[Desiderius]

The difference is Octavia can erase encounters with her spells, a bard generally cannot and attacking with a weapon is generally the best he/she can do offense-wise.
Plus Octavia gets unlimited touch attacks with big sneak dice, a typical bard does not.

Dirge of Doom is bard level 8, BTW.
And 2d6 isn't great, but better then nothing. Also it stacks with Sense Vitals.

A bard can erase encounters plenty. Just glitterdust and grease will shut down a lot. Problem is the best options to do it on a bard have shitty areas.

Songs have great areas. Cones work great from melee as long as your own team is bringing the saves they should to the fight. Mass Caco and Slow have good areas too and are enemies only if you’re going after will.

Spamming Sonic Burst with Rod of Flaming Vengeance is underrated.

 

[Desiderius]

All those things were why I made Octavia an archer. Thundering drums is Bowling infusion vs. fortitude tho. You only have to win half the saves to make bard aoe spells great. For dazzling I’m talking about before you get the song and mirror bow and all that other nonsense. You’d spend most of the game subpar.

Vivi splash is so bad for ranged I can’t even, and you blow another precious feat on top of it in a desperate search for a pittance of damage. You’ve got InEffect disease.

Just make Val your Bard with a monk splash for crane and let Linzi be a mad dog or something.

But you have to deal with having Octavia in your party

I wasn’t going to admit it, but this is the first time I’ve used her extensively. Jub is the man. She’s been better than I thought with help from this forum. The speed javelin really does make the difference. +1 to hit on point blank ain’t nothing.

I’m running three play throughs with different alignments on the MCs and only bringing along companions who match to get a feel for all the companions.

Jub and Pal MC don’t match.

 

[Desiderius]

That's called control, not erase. And sure he can, but a wizard can generally do that much better. Plus erase later on, particularly with an AT PrC.

Much better? I’d need to see the data. Plus dirge sets everything else up for both wizard and bard.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Does anyone know why something like a manticore, or boggards with 90 hp and 5 class levels swinging +19 attacks give the same amount of xp as... 5 young deer? I don't get how this is a thing.

 

[Haplo]

That's called control, not erase. And sure he can, but a wizard can generally do that much better. Plus erase later on, particularly with an AT PrC.

Much better? I’d need to see the data. Plus dirge sets everything else up for both wizard and bard.

Stinking Cloud, the "Pitt" series, Chains of Light, Icy Prison (later Mass), Sirocco, Tar Pit, Boneshatter. Chains of Light alone solves most "tough" boss encounters in the game (no immunity, no SR check).

Plus Greater Focus: Conjuration is generally a no-brainer for a wizard (yes, even AT) and rather dubious for a Bard. Greater Focus: Evocation is also nice. Bard can consider Enchantment or MAYYYBE late game Evocation, but for me that would feel like a waste. Spamming Greater Shout and Sound Burst vs ghosts or some such might be nice (for 1 round stun each)... but how much can you spam those between rests? An AT can kill them in 2 casts instead...

Also, whom are you gonna give that +4 Conjuration DC Rod of Power Source? To the Bard that has no Conjuration Spells?

Heighten allows lower level CC to achieve better DCs. Makes the likes of Grease and Stinking Cloud useful throughout the game. Not much room (and raising potential) in a 6 spell level class.

Lastly a wizard only really needs Int (and above average Dex & Con). A Bard, if he wants to use a bow or a melee weapon effectively, also needs high Dex (or Str) besides his casting stat.

So typically the wizard will have a pretty huge DC advantage AND will be able to CC all enemy types, not only those vulnerable to Mind Affecting spells.

Don't get me wrong, auto-Shaken with Dirge is awesome and Fascinate is also nice when you get it vs certain enemies, but a Bard can hardly compete with a wizard in universal hard CC.