Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Shadenuat]

Thassilonian Necromancer gives up Abjuration and Enchant. < protip

I call this manouever Steel Rehn

then you quickendimension door

 

[Sykar]

Necro has shit school powers and early level spells are mediocre to outright shit too. Also I dislike giving up abjuration.

 

[Shadenuat]

school powers matter 0% - ur AT anyway
bad erly spells like fear or summon undead? nah. they're actually good enough. fear is fear or if save passed: target is Shaken. actually pretty good spells and up to 6HD
abjuration is worthless. get whoever to cast your protection from electricity.

 

[Shadenuat]

 

[Haplo]

Thassilonian Necromancer gives up Abjuration and Enchant. < protip

I call this manouever Steel Rehn

then you quickendimension door

Too bad Unholy can't benefit from elemental bonus damage.
Could be 2 x (18+11) = 58 damage more if it were elemental (with Amulet and masterpiece robe).

Hmm, maybe with Rod of Flaming Vengeance?

 

[Shadenuat]

the Shrimp is p badass

Spoiler

but that 40 dc mind spell is nasty and I can't see any abilities or stats. the obvious thing to do would be to hire a Erastil merc or pick up degenerate sister duo, but kinetic abilities actually don't seem to work properly in TB and I am on no merc run.
will finish chapter 5 and see how high level I get before tacking it.

Too bad Unholy can't benefit from elemental bonus damage.
Could be 2 x (18+11) = 58 damage more if it were elemental (with Amulet and masterpiece robe).

Hmm, maybe with Rod of Flaming Vengeance?

too bad theres not way to maximize sneak dice.

so far I only have irlene grand rod, I'm just level 15.
But I think I am reaching 400 damage banshee wail, up to 430 with 11d6 sneak I think

for bosses plan is to get max empower Enervation for 12+12 levels drained in first round

where do you get level 9 Quicken rod anyway?

P.S. Fuken Harrim is cursed character I swear, critical misses whole game and now he got a bug: permanent Paralyze status. I have to cast Freedom of Action on him every day. goddamn invalid dwarf paralytic i swear

 

[Desiderius]

As for specialization schools: Pick Transmutation or Conjuration. These contain most of the best spells in the game. For prohibited pick Evocation for sure:

It’s just a different way to play the game. We’re just a bunch of Porkys with a couple extra SDs.

 

[Desiderius]

actually Haplok with Prayer both curved blades even out on ab with baneall doing more damage. unless you enchant +4 one of course.
it's +4+2 and +5+1. but baneall will do +8 extra average damage even without harm. of course you can bane +4 one but then you can bane (uhh do 2 banes stack?) and holy/axiomatic or whatever bane one so it will still be more damaging weapon.

Enervate is single target

btw anyone knows if Rovagug is immune to enervate?

I wonder if I can remove 24 levels from him in a single round and see what happens

Speaking of prayer, check out Nobility domain eighth level ability. You can use it 3 + wis mod per day, at 1/2 your level rounds per pop. Tristan’s crappy ability should have worked like that.

yea I've run combinations of strength sun glory nobility etc.

As for crusader I swear to god I don't know why you won't just dip some Fighter levels instead. or 2 paladin ones. or 4 mad dog + rest pet cleric if you want to do damage.

or just play sacred huntsmaster

Those all work too. Crusader is a great class. Who knew?

Pure crusader is to get to all the fun buffs sooner. Same reason Haplo rushes AT. Also your buffs scale to caster level. To be clear: I’m not choosing armor or proficiency bonus feats. Better to just splash if you want those.

My favorite version is with three levels of Divine Guardian to give my tank an extra +4 AC whenever he gets attacked and to eat his nat 20s. Makes tank without image more viable. Most of the best shield bash feats are gated behind BAB so you get to those sooner too.

Hybrid with monk for Pummeling Bully and Charge with shield bash is also good. You don’t need to beat saves or penetrate spell resistance so splash away.

 

[Desiderius]

Shadenuat Direct damage spells tend to be very inefficent compared to disabling your enemy and letting melee dudes whack him a bunch, plus there's some in other schools. Sirocco is a good spell, but it's just one spell.

Not true for those who play with small party and note that necromancy have a lot of powerful spells. Eg? Finger of Death, Boneshaker, dealing 3d6 + d6 /2cl damage for a tier 2 spell(it can deal 13d6 at lv 20), Boneshatter, CL up to 15 * d6 damage + exhausted/fatigued depending their save for a 4th tier spell is insanely amazing. Combined with metamagic, maximizing and empowering, you can deal 130 damage consistently. Not mentioning that necromancy spells generally have FORT save and most enemies that you fight has poor fort saves(FEYFOLK)

For Evokation, Evocation is not just fireballs. Icy Prison, MASS Icy Prison, Stormbolts, Hellfire ray, umbral ray, Polar ray , Sirocco, Fire Snake, etc are all amazing spells

Conjuration is a better school, mainly on pnp(gate, Wooden Phalanx, create demiplane to name few pnp only spells), but i don't think that only sirroco is the unique good evocation spell.

You cast 2 spells with all sorts of matamagic stuff. So, basically let's call it 2 level 9 spells. For 260 damage.

Meanwhile, I cast 1 buff on the melee guy and disable the enemy with another. The melee guy spends 2 full around attacks on the chap. Are you telling me that in that 2 rounds, the melee guy can't rack up 260+ damage? And he can continue to rack up the damage because buffs last longer than 2 rounds. That is why 3.5 has the god wizard archetype. It drops evocation and necromancy for conjuration or transmutation specialisation.

Give it up, Cael. Nuking is in their blood.

 

[Delterius]

por que no los dos

make your spellbook mostly reality warping to disable your enemies // buff your allies and keep some nuking in there for when your retinue fails at life and you want to have some variety and fun by yourself

Sin Conjurer to Arcane Trickster, sneak attack sometimes via fingering and disintegrating but mostly conjure your way out of trouble

plus early game of actually hitting people with cantrips makes for a more respectable baron imho

 

[Shadenuat]

killed the dwarf, he got better

Crusader is a great class. Who knew?

that one guy on steam who couldn't kill rats with full vivi dip merc 6 pets party cause of concealment while having druid in party

yeah, not the most credible player material

Most of the best shield bash feats are gated behind BAB

just take ranger/slayer

or go monk 1 / teurge with monk weapon and enlarge. good ac, +1 attack
i think anything is better than curse-sader

 

[Cryomancer]

You cast 2 spells with all sorts of matamagic stuff. So, basically let's call it 2 level 9 spells. For 260 damage.

Meanwhile, I cast 1 buff on the melee guy and disable the enemy with another. The melee guy spends 2 full around attacks on the chap. Are you telling me that in that 2 rounds, the melee guy can't rack up 260+ damage? And he can continue to rack up the damage because buffs last longer than 2 rounds. That is why 3.5 has the god wizard archetype. It drops evocation and necromancy for conjuration or transmutation specialisation.

In therms of DPR(damage per round), nothing beats an composite deadly earth of a kineticist. That said, Icy Prison can make then stuck on deadly earth, sirroco can make then prone into deadly earth, etc. And the necromantic spells that i mentioned are not only good for damage. They also can inflict exhaustion.

There is no need to choose between "nuking or crowd control/debuffing", an Sorcerer can be good at both. Tsunami can deal massive damage and make enemies prone for eg.

ps : Winged creatures should be immune to ground effects like deadly earth IMO.

 

[Desiderius]

killed the dwarf, he got better

Crusader is a great class. Who knew?

that one guy on steam who couldn't kill rats with full vivi dip merc 6 pets party cause of concealment while having druid in party

yeah, not the most credible player material

Most of the best shield bash feats are gated behind BAB

just take ranger/slayer

or go monk 1 / teurge with monk weapon and enlarge. good ac, +1 attack
i think anything is better than curse-sader

Don’t knock it until you try it. So many noses to look down, so little imagination. I’m beating hard/unfair handily - it’s no wonder you’d rather attack the credibility of an imaginary player than the credible one you can’t answer.

Shield mastery/bashing finish would take 10 levels using combat styles and/or not available. That’s an entirely different build.

 

[Shadenuat]

I tried it. I even played goddamn flamewarden ranger. and Arcane Bomber (favorite Dixon class)

Cleric is obviously strong class and taking away 1 domain and 1 spell/level with all the super items won't harm him. but +1 ab and some damage from weapon spec is not worth it.
hell hitting things is not even a big deal with cleric. he can do it fine. it's survival which is a problem for them so crusader bonus doesn't really turn you into great combat character, just takes away some party buffs from you.
and shield bashing without sneak/favorite enemy/smite evil is not worth it.

 

[Desiderius]

I tried it. I even played goddamn flamewarden ranger. and Arcane Bomber (favorite Dixon class)

Cleric is obviously strong class and taking away 1 domain and 1 spell/level with all the super items won't harm him. but +1 ab and some damage from weapon spec is not worth it.
hell hitting things is not even a big deal with cleric. he can do it fine. it's survival which is a problem for them so crusader bonus doesn't really turn you into great combat character, just takes away some party buffs from you.

I’m not using weapon spec until level 15. Why do you have to reflexively slam a build before even understanding it?

The key extra feats are shield bash, weapon focus (so you can reach shatter defenses), and improved crit (which is a monster with lion’s claw). You’ve now got the feats to get outflank, blindfight, and improved two-weapon on schedule.

No other full caster class can get all that done. Full caster = the big buffs. All the melee goods = required to dominate combat. Survival-wise you’ll be off-tanking or charging backliners most of the early game, but once you hit level eight you can spam the double prayer (+2 AC) and your vestment hits +2 AC. If only shield vestment weren’t bugged. With Divine Power on and Shatter you can afford to fight defensively when needed.

Nobility gives you Brilliant Inspiration (half-life a little over 13 rolls appropriately enough) at eleven, Greater Heroism at 13, and Frightful at 15 the latter two are min/lvl.

Yeah, and Flamewarden is hot garbage.

 

[ArchAngel]

killed the dwarf, he got better

Crusader is a great class. Who knew?

that one guy on steam who couldn't kill rats with full vivi dip merc 6 pets party cause of concealment while having druid in party

yeah, not the most credible player material

Most of the best shield bash feats are gated behind BAB

just take ranger/slayer

or go monk 1 / teurge with monk weapon and enlarge. good ac, +1 attack
i think anything is better than curse-sader

Don’t knock it until you try it. So many noses to look down, so little imagination. I’m beating hard/unfair handily - it’s no wonder you’d rather attack the credibility of an imaginary player than the credible one you can’t answer.

Shield mastery/bashing finish would take 10 levels using combat styles and/or not available. That’s an entirely different build.

You are like a master of taking bad builds and then trying to prove to us that 1+1 = 3.

 

[ArchAngel]

I tried it. I even played goddamn flamewarden ranger. and Arcane Bomber (favorite Dixon class)

Cleric is obviously strong class and taking away 1 domain and 1 spell/level with all the super items won't harm him. but +1 ab and some damage from weapon spec is not worth it.
hell hitting things is not even a big deal with cleric. he can do it fine. it's survival which is a problem for them so crusader bonus doesn't really turn you into great combat character, just takes away some party buffs from you.

I’m not using weapon spec until level 15. Why do you have to reflexively slam a build before even understanding it?

The key extra feats are shield bash, weapon focus (so you can reach shatter defenses), and improved crit (which is a monster with lion’s claw). You’ve now got the feats to get outflank, blindfight, and improved two-weapon on schedule.

No other full caster class can get all that done. Full caster = the big buffs. All the melee goods = required to dominate combat.

That might be useful if you are playing solo. In a party you just made your party cleric less useful while also making him weaker at that kind of stuff if you make a fighter do it.
This build of yours is good for PnP where it is all about roleplaying but don't come here and claim this is a good build. It is not.

 

[Cael]

You cast 2 spells with all sorts of matamagic stuff. So, basically let's call it 2 level 9 spells. For 260 damage.

Meanwhile, I cast 1 buff on the melee guy and disable the enemy with another. The melee guy spends 2 full around attacks on the chap. Are you telling me that in that 2 rounds, the melee guy can't rack up 260+ damage? And he can continue to rack up the damage because buffs last longer than 2 rounds. That is why 3.5 has the god wizard archetype. It drops evocation and necromancy for conjuration or transmutation specialisation.

In therms of DPR(damage per round), nothing beats an composite deadly earth of a kineticist. That said, Icy Prison can make then stuck on deadly earth, sirroco can make then prone into deadly earth, etc. And the necromantic spells that i mentioned are not only good for damage. They also can inflict exhaustion.

There is no need to choose between "nuking or crowd control/debuffing", an Sorcerer can be good at both. Tsunami can deal massive damage and make enemies prone for eg.

ps : Winged creatures should be immune to ground effects like deadly earth IMO.

The point of god wizards is not DPR but efficient use of resources. I can use 2 spells to shut down an entire encounter. Sure, it may take 10 rounds to complete the fight, but I used only 2 spells, while you can complete the encounter in 6 rounds but use 6 spells for the same effect.

In 3.5 (not the aborted number-loving abomination that is bugmaker), you don't want to use direct damage spells because it is simply inefficient. This is due to a multitude of factors, including the hp bloat from 2nd Ed (which topped out at 10d10+40 hp at level 10 and a small linear increase after that; compared with the indefinite hp gain of 3.5) and the fact damage spells still had the same cap (and in some cases a lowered damage cap) as 2nd Ed. It is, therefore, better to use your spells to disable and let the guy with the unlimited attacks do the cleaning up. It is telling that the best weapon for a level 1 sorcerer/wizard is a scythe.

 

[Cryomancer]

In 3.5 (not the aborted number-loving abomination that is bugmaker), you don't want to use direct damage spells because it is simply inefficient. This is due to a multitude of factors, including the hp bloat from 2nd Ed (which topped out at 10d10+40 hp at level 10 and a small linear increase after that; compared with the indefinite hp gain of 3.5) and the fact damage spells still had the same cap (and in some cases a lowered damage cap) as 2nd Ed. It is, therefore, better to use your spells to disable and let the guy with the unlimited attacks do the cleaning up. It is telling that the best weapon for a level 1 sorcerer/wizard is a scythe.

Pathfinder sorcerers/wizards ARE different than 3e. Examples?

• d6 hit dice instead of d4
• Bloodline matters for sorcerers and give unique things
• Different spells, Icy Prison is amazing for eg. Tsunami too.
• No more OHK effects on Finger of Death for eg

I can solo a lot of high level encounters on PFKM by casting icy prison, mass, haste and running. As for 2e, one problem that i have with 2e is that all save vs death are the same. An finger of death casted by low lv caster with an scroll require the same save as an finger of death casted by the god of death. This makes no sense. And damaging spells in other hands was too good on 2e. 140 hp is ludicrous high HP and Horrid Wilting can deal 20d8(20~160 damage). On 3.5e, they are not good as in 2e, but are still amazing. I also used form of the Dragon against the wild hunt spam in end game and spammed the breath attack to save my spell slots. Managed to end 3 encounters with 3 party members spending just one spell slot from my sorcerer and few healing scrolls. My kineticist spammed his deadly earth as usual. You can be deadly with damage spells, just not as on 2e. And note that sorcerers have much more spells to use than wizards. Damaging spells are still amazing. Just not as amazing as 2e.

Hell, an single death clutch can slay most creatures in the game...

 

[Desiderius]

killed the dwarf, he got better

Crusader is a great class. Who knew?

that one guy on steam who couldn't kill rats with full vivi dip merc 6 pets party cause of concealment while having druid in party

yeah, not the most credible player material

Most of the best shield bash feats are gated behind BAB

just take ranger/slayer

or go monk 1 / teurge with monk weapon and enlarge. good ac, +1 attack
i think anything is better than curse-sader

Don’t knock it until you try it. So many noses to look down, so little imagination. I’m beating hard/unfair handily - it’s no wonder you’d rather attack the credibility of an imaginary player than the credible one you can’t answer.

Shield mastery/bashing finish would take 10 levels using combat styles and/or not available. That’s an entirely different build.

You are like a master of taking bad builds and then trying to prove to us that 1+1 = 3.

The screenshots are up (the other toons are unbuffed and auto attacking mobs with damage reduction. Ekun was testing EA, which is bad) I’m seeing good results. You can call it bad all you want, but you’re wrong.

The common thread is that it takes a lot of work to get things to come together, but they work great for a play style that uses most of its action economy attacking.

I’m not wasting my cleric. You don’t have to have offensive cleric spells to be successful. Crusader gets full channeling and death wards and the like as needed.

 

[Shadenuat]

Yeah, and Flamewarden is hot garbage.

heyhey why u slam a build before trying? have no imaginatun?

The common thread is that it takes a lot of work to get things to come together

Exactly. Shield bashing is hard to lift off since you need stats, can't hit for shit and there are no great shields before Ravenna, and you're also throwing spellcasting stat into the mixer. You can't hit anything with bashing early and in the end the damage is simply underwhelming. Regongar or Amiri fighting near enlarged will outdo you most of the game while you grind ur falcatas or whatever.

For TWF you need extra sources of damage, shield mastery for max str bonus, sneak, etc.

 

[Desiderius]

I tried it. I even played goddamn flamewarden ranger. and Arcane Bomber (favorite Dixon class)

Cleric is obviously strong class and taking away 1 domain and 1 spell/level with all the super items won't harm him. but +1 ab and some damage from weapon spec is not worth it.
hell hitting things is not even a big deal with cleric. he can do it fine. it's survival which is a problem for them so crusader bonus doesn't really turn you into great combat character, just takes away some party buffs from you.

I’m not using weapon spec until level 15. Why do you have to reflexively slam a build before even understanding it?

The key extra feats are shield bash, weapon focus (so you can reach shatter defenses), and improved crit (which is a monster with lion’s claw). You’ve now got the feats to get outflank, blindfight, and improved two-weapon on schedule.

No other full caster class can get all that done. Full caster = the big buffs. All the melee goods = required to dominate combat.

That might be useful if you are playing solo. In a party you just made your party cleric less useful while also making him weaker at that kind of stuff if you make a fighter do it.
This build of yours is good for PnP where it is all about roleplaying but don't come here and claim this is a good build. It is not.

The main point is that buffs are pre-cast so you can use your action economy attacking and you can use your feats on fighting instead of getting your spells to stick. It’s the same conversation you’re having with Cael on the micro level.

With the self-buffs Crusader gets you can stand toe to toe with any fighter. Luck, sacred, and size all stack. Always up Angel, Greater and Frightful at 15 is huge.

 

[Shadenuat]

You are like a master of taking bad builds and then trying to prove to us that 1+1 = 3.

tbh bad builds is only fun builds at this point. vividip pet abuse room is thataway

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, and Flamewarden is hot garbage.

heyhey why u slam a build before trying? have no imaginatun?

The common thread is that it takes a lot of work to get things to come together

Exactly. Shield bashing is hard to lift off since you need stats, can't hit for shit and there are no great shields before Ravenna, and you're also throwing spellcasting stat into the mixer. You can't hit anything with bashing early and in the end the damage is simply underwhelming. Regongar or Amiri fighting near enlarged will outdo you most of the game while you grind ur falcatas or whatever.

For TWF you need extra sources of damage, shield mastery for max str bonus, sneak, etc.

You can build a good DEX version splashing thug too. I’m not having any trouble hitting in those pics. If you keep the mobs properly shaken and freebooters bond, archons aura, and inspire courage up you shouldn’t either. You’re not spending three feats on shatter defenses for nothing.

I’m getting extra damage every swing from inspire courage and freebooters bane usually. Divine Power is a luck boost to strength and an extra attack that goes up every three levels. Nobility eighth level is +2 to hit and AC and you can use it 3 + wis.

You’re negative theory-crafting.

 

[Desiderius]

You are like a master of taking bad builds and then trying to prove to us that 1+1 = 3.

tbh bad builds is only fun builds at this point. vividip pet abuse room is thataway

Once you hit stat bloat land vivi dip turns suboptimal. Nice mutagen, here’s some +6/+4 gloves. Yeah, yeah stacking. Nice zero BAB level.