Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

You get 6 damage for your -2, I get another full attack. Your get your second attack at level seven at -7, mine is -2 and I get it at level one.

U mean 1d4 light shield attack that gets eaten by every dr in the game?

No, I haven’t been able to bash with a light shield. I think you need finesse. Actually come to think of it the game starts you out with a light shield which you can bash with. Wonder why Arrowguard (was testing high enchant levels with shield master) wouldn’t work. Maybe just UI issue.

You get half STR bonus on your bash without Double Slice or full with it (available at lvl one), Courage, Bane, Favor and it snowballs from there. If you’d stop beclowning yourselves with your supercilious negative theorycrafting and load up the game for five minutes you’d know that.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes sounds usable. I would rather have a fighter that uses this weapon and cleric that has max DC for Chains of Light. And has extra spell slots to summon more Skeletons and has an extra useful domain powers.

EDIT: Seems your cleric has no points left over for Con or Charisma. Those are both serious sacrifices, especially for a melee character.
Also you are lagging with spells after everyone. At lvl 17 if you don't have 28 wisdom you will only be able to cast one lvl 9 spell and that one will be from your one domain. You will get your lvl 9 spell at lvl 18.
And it works like that during all your leveling. You will need to keep your main casting stat all the time good enough to be able to cast new level of spells immediately. I don't know if that is possible.
Also no feats are worth losing one lvl 7, 8 or 9 spells. Even less so in PnP, where this subclass is complete crap.

Con is one hit point per level. You can make up for four con with an aid spell. The bigger concern is fortitude and fatigue. Likewise dumping CHR (I had it at eight) hurts your channeling.

I haven’t seen those problems with Wis. I’ve got Amiri as Defender of the True World and she starts at 12 for goodness sake but has been fine upping Wis as she goes and getting the rest from equipment. Then again she’s only on level seven spells and it’s starting to get tight.

In general though you’re right, which is why I don’t like min-maxing. The biggest problem I was trying to get around was lack of exotic proficiency at lvl one cleric (it takes one BAB) which meant no weapon focus ->early shield bash-> fifteen DEX->min/max ugliness.

Even at high difficulties (and low chance to hit) the extra attack is good (unless your chance to hit is exactly 15%) but the hoops you have to go through aren’t.

There are several ways to go but the most elegant I think is one lvl of trad monk at the start with 13 DEX. You can get the DEX belt from manticore for two weapon fighting at lvl three, with your bonus shield bash at lvl two or just start out with exotic at one, focus at two, and dazzling at three and start the bashing at lvl six when you got some decent shields to do it with.

As for no amount of feats being worth it, what you get is doubling up your buffs (and bard buffs, and freebooter buffs, and food buffs, and strength buffs, ad infinitum in this game) with extra attacks. Only Crusader can do that as a full caster.

If you’re not up for that, that’s fine - there are of course many ways to skin the Pathfinder cat - but it fits my play style and is in no sense subpar.

 

[Desiderius]

In 3.5 (not the aborted number-loving abomination that is bugmaker), you don't want to use direct damage spells because it is simply inefficient. This is due to a multitude of factors, including the hp bloat from 2nd Ed (which topped out at 10d10+40 hp at level 10 and a small linear increase after that; compared with the indefinite hp gain of 3.5) and the fact damage spells still had the same cap (and in some cases a lowered damage cap) as 2nd Ed. It is, therefore, better to use your spells to disable and let the guy with the unlimited attacks do the cleaning up. It is telling that the best weapon for a level 1 sorcerer/wizard is a scythe.

Pathfinder sorcerers/wizards ARE different than 3e. Examples?

• d6 hit dice instead of d4
• Bloodline matters for sorcerers and give unique things
• Different spells, Icy Prison is amazing for eg. Tsunami too.
• No more OHK effects on Finger of Death for eg

I can solo a lot of high level encounters on PFKM by casting icy prison, mass, haste and running. As for 2e, one problem that i have with 2e is that all save vs death are the same. An finger of death casted by low lv caster with an scroll require the same save as an finger of death casted by the god of death. This makes no sense. And damaging spells in other hands was too good on 2e. 140 hp is ludicrous high HP and Horrid Wilting can deal 20d8(20~160 damage). On 3.5e, they are not good as in 2e, but are still amazing. I also used form of the Dragon against the wild hunt spam in end game and spammed the breath attack to save my spell slots. Managed to end 3 encounters with 3 party members spending just one spell slot from my sorcerer and few healing scrolls. My kineticist spammed his deadly earth as usual. You can be deadly with damage spells, just not as on 2e. And note that sorcerers have much more spells to use than wizards. Damaging spells are still amazing. Just not as amazing as 2e.

Hell, an single death clutch can slay most creatures in the game...

You are not playing 3.5. You are playing bugmaker, which has ludicrous damage spells and obscene classes that are not in 3.5. The power bloat in numbers in bugmaker is insane and seriously stupid. You are almost at the point of JRPGs with their 9999 damage caps (which can be broken).

You know I haven’t seen numbers this high but they do actually work (hat tip devs).

Last night my +52 to hit (thx to Smite Evil) Pal was duking it out with a 60AC dragon. Octavia got through his 32 spell resistance thx to her Greater Spell Penetration feats and equipment to land a Chains of Light. It only stuck for a round but it was enough. After dispatching fifteen level ten slaves who were harassing my casters with a 45DC Dazzling Display of her Thug life Dueling Sword (aptly named Menace) Linzi got in there using its Brilliant Energy to land the killing blow on the Dragon. Harrim aptly gave the Dragon the finger, Valerie shook all the bad guys up with her Dirge, and Okbo couldn’t figure out his pathing as usual.

So not quite perfect but great fun. Highlight of the night was discovering that Hassuf had 20 pats of butter for sale.

 

[Cryomancer]

Last night my +52 to hit (thx to Smite Evil) Pal was duking it out with a 60AC dragon. Octavia got through his 32 spell resistance thx to her Greater Spell Penetration feats and equipment to land a Chains of Light. It only stuck for a round but it was enough. After dispatching fifteen level ten slaves who were harassing my casters with a 45DC Dazzling Display of her Thug life Dueling Sword (aptly named Menace) Linzi got in there using its Brilliant Energy to land the killing blow on the Dragon. Harrim aptly gave the Dragon the finger, Valerie shook all the bad guys up with her Dirge, and Okbo couldn’t figure out his pathing as usual.

And there are no power creep on 3.5???

IMG took from an video "Neverwinter Nights 1 Dragon Force Druid Build" at 32:30

32 SR for very old dragons is not high. We are talking about dragons
And +hit, you are musticlassing and probably not using an RP build

 

[Shadenuat]

You get half STR bonus on your bash without Double Slice or full with it (available at lvl one), Courage, Bane, Favor and it snowballs from there. If you’d stop beclowning yourselves with your supercilious negative theorycrafting and load up the game for five minutes you’d know that.

No, I haven’t been able to bash with a light shield. I think you need finesse. Actually come to think of it the game starts you out with a light shield which you can bash with. Wonder why Arrowguard (was testing high enchant levels with shield master) wouldn’t work. Maybe just UI issue.

Cause u can't bash with Bucklers in d20 u dork.

Sure, it's usable.
But the very same falcata in the hands of a level 16 barbarian, capped fighter or SS (with APs) will be 15-20/x4.
Even 15-20/x5 is possible on a capped pure SS (for example a Dex build).

Tbh in a game with so many cool toys like hammer infinitely stacking -2 ac penalty every hit or weapons ingoring dr or draining stats or whatever, gravitating towards some crit fishing flatcata seems like most boring option to me especially for what is supposed to be support character like cleric
guess numbers are fun

 

[rusty_shackleford]

In 3.5 (not the aborted number-loving abomination that is bugmaker), you don't want to use direct damage spells because it is simply inefficient. This is due to a multitude of factors, including the hp bloat from 2nd Ed (which topped out at 10d10+40 hp at level 10 and a small linear increase after that; compared with the indefinite hp gain of 3.5) and the fact damage spells still had the same cap (and in some cases a lowered damage cap) as 2nd Ed. It is, therefore, better to use your spells to disable and let the guy with the unlimited attacks do the cleaning up. It is telling that the best weapon for a level 1 sorcerer/wizard is a scythe.

Pathfinder sorcerers/wizards ARE different than 3e. Examples?

• d6 hit dice instead of d4
• Bloodline matters for sorcerers and give unique things
• Different spells, Icy Prison is amazing for eg. Tsunami too.
• No more OHK effects on Finger of Death for eg

I can solo a lot of high level encounters on PFKM by casting icy prison, mass, haste and running. As for 2e, one problem that i have with 2e is that all save vs death are the same. An finger of death casted by low lv caster with an scroll require the same save as an finger of death casted by the god of death. This makes no sense. And damaging spells in other hands was too good on 2e. 140 hp is ludicrous high HP and Horrid Wilting can deal 20d8(20~160 damage). On 3.5e, they are not good as in 2e, but are still amazing. I also used form of the Dragon against the wild hunt spam in end game and spammed the breath attack to save my spell slots. Managed to end 3 encounters with 3 party members spending just one spell slot from my sorcerer and few healing scrolls. My kineticist spammed his deadly earth as usual. You can be deadly with damage spells, just not as on 2e. And note that sorcerers have much more spells to use than wizards. Damaging spells are still amazing. Just not as amazing as 2e.

Hell, an single death clutch can slay most creatures in the game...

You are not playing 3.5. You are playing bugmaker, which has ludicrous damage spells and obscene classes that are not in 3.5. The power bloat in numbers in bugmaker is insane and seriously stupid. You are almost at the point of JRPGs with their 9999 damage caps (which can be broken).

3.5 is even more broken in regards to OP as shit munchkin builds

 

[Lambach]

One of the Artisans whose name I won't even attempt to spell made me Menace, a +3 Brilliant Energy Dueling Sword, so I took it out on a test drive against the Hellknights.....



The cool thing about it is that it flat-out negates 13 AC against these guys (I have a feeling it will be amazing against Pitax Wardens as well) and I don't have to burn enchantment points, which can instead be used for an additional +1 and Frost, Shock and Fire for a nice +9d6 per round damage bonus (because all 3 attacks will hit except on a nat 1, courtesy of 14 AC they're left with Flat-flooted and Brilliant Energy'd).

I was a bit worried I made the wrong choice with weapon selection for the Sword Saint, i.e. I was thinking it might've been better to go with Estoc for the 15-20 Crit range down the line, but get this, Arcane Enforcer, a +3 Dueling Sword that also does +1d6 Force Damage, has a 18-20 Crit range and does not count as a Keen weapon, so it stacks with Improved Critical for that beautiful 15-20 range.

I think I'm pretty covered with just these two swords for the rest of the game, more-or-less. Menace for iron-clad plate wearing enemies, Arcane Enforcer for everything else. Being Lawful Evil, I also get the Axiomatic weapon enchantment, so the Wild Cunt are fucked.

 

[Shadenuat]

made by harrim's brother

they asked an axe, but vendor machine gave only hammers

 

[Haplo]

One of the Artisans whose name I won't even attempt to spell made me Menace, a +3 Brilliant Energy Dueling Sword, so I took it out on a test drive against the Hellknights.....



The cool thing about it is that it flat-out negates 13 AC against these guys (I have a feeling it will be amazing against Pitax Wardens as well) and I don't have to burn enchantment points, which can instead be used for an additional +1 and Frost, Shock and Fire for a nice +9d6 per round damage bonus (because all 3 attacks will hit except on a nat 1, courtesy of 14 AC they're left with Flat-flooted and Brilliant Energy'd).

I was a bit worried I made the wrong choice with weapon selection for the Sword Saint, i.e. I was thinking it might've been better to go with Estoc for the 15-20 Crit range down the line, but get this, Arcane Enforcer, a +3 Dueling Sword that also does +1d6 Force Damage, has a 18-20 Crit range and does not count as a Keen weapon, so it stacks with Improved Critical for that beautiful 15-20 range.

I think I'm pretty covered with just these two swords for the rest of the game, more-or-less. Menace for iron-clad plate wearing enemies, Arcane Enforcer for everything else. Being Lawful Evil, I also get the Axiomatic weapon enchantment, so the Wild Cunt are fucked.

Make sure to pay the lich at the Lonely Barrows a visit...

 

[Haplo]

Last night my +52 to hit (thx to Smite Evil) Pal was duking it out with a 60AC dragon. Octavia got through his 32 spell resistance thx to her Greater Spell Penetration feats and equipment to land a Chains of Light. It only stuck for a round but it was enough. After dispatching fifteen level ten slaves who were harassing my casters with a 45DC Dazzling Display of her Thug life Dueling Sword (aptly named Menace) Linzi got in there using its Brilliant Energy to land the killing blow on the Dragon. Harrim aptly gave the Dragon the finger, Valerie shook all the bad guys up with her Dirge, and Okbo couldn’t figure out his pathing as usual.

Brilliant Energy does not help against monsters. Sadly, it doesn't even help against the Wild Hunt.

 

[Desiderius]

You get half STR bonus on your bash without Double Slice or full with it (available at lvl one), Courage, Bane, Favor and it snowballs from there. If you’d stop beclowning yourselves with your supercilious negative theorycrafting and load up the game for five minutes you’d know that.

No, I haven’t been able to bash with a light shield. I think you need finesse. Actually come to think of it the game starts you out with a light shield which you can bash with. Wonder why Arrowguard (was testing high enchant levels with shield master) wouldn’t work. Maybe just UI issue.

Cause u can't bash with Bucklers in d20 u dork.

Sure, it's usable.
But the very same falcata in the hands of a level 16 barbarian, capped fighter or SS (with APs) will be 15-20/x4.
Even 15-20/x5 is possible on a capped pure SS (for example a Dex build).

Tbh in a game with so many cool toys like hammer infinitely stacking -2 ac penalty every hit or weapons ingoring dr or draining stats or whatever, gravitating towards some crit fishing flatcata seems like most boring option to me especially for what is supposed to be support character like cleric
guess numbers are fun

I don’t play pnp. I’m learning the game as I go - that’s what makes it fun. You’d think I blasphemed Lord Gygax or something. I’ll get off your lawn now old coot.

I’m not fishing for crits, I’m playing the class, for which improved crit is a bonus feat. The math is a little tricky but my intuition is that brilliant inspiration plus a wide x3 crit range is nuts.

Supposed to be a support class? WTF does that even mean? And Alchemist is supposed to be a ranged class and fighter is supposed to be melee ad infinitum. The whole point of the game is getting to play classes different ways, that’s why there are subclasses in the first place. He still has the bare bones support that makes having a cleric around nearly mandatory. He just fights better and casts worse. I have other casters.

 

[Shadenuat]

For all the new toys and old toys which trivialize many things and change endgame loadouts like stackable penalties bonuses drains procs and such (I ended with divine damage shortsword for Jaethal since it cancels any resists for her sneak attacks and Obliteration + Dimension Strike + Power Attack for Reg for now),

there are still no good longswords.

Supposed to be a support class? WTF does that even mean?

means u get 1-shot randomly in half of battles if you run around with your sword and shield on Unfair anyway and it might be better to use weapon that complements party and combos with other characters, preferably reach one.

The math is a little tricky but my intuition is that brilliant inspiration

since game doesn't actually show re-rolls in combat log I don't trust neither it or Luck domain tbh

 

[Shadenuat]

little bit of statistics of Unfair Turn Based mode

castle of knives hit level 18 after worm fight
damage using ie like statistic:

Necro/AT: 101k (damage skyrockets on surprise spells obviously but even without them, even early rods carry you far)
Jaethal Bard/DD/Rogue: 31k (should taken rogue early and half of game tanked/supported/shifted auras, turned pretty badass once higher level items started to show up tho)
Regongar THF/Magus with full Cleave tree: 85k (strongest companion for TB mode imo)
Harrim Mad Dog 4/Druid with Bear: 85k (half him half bear I guess)
Jubilost: 34k (mostly used for controls + NO DEGENERACY policy)
Kanerah: 55k (kinetic abilities do not prock as absurdly as in RTwP and gathering power is harder since you skip turns + NO DEGENERACY policy)

Overall in TB strongest characters are those who are more about action economy or can hit multiple enemies, do area attacks, AOOs etc.

It also proves to me that while it might seem like other classes are op, in reality Wizards/Sorcs/AT, enlarged dudes with big sticks and pet owners rack up damage like crazy when compared to other characters, especially those who are more about single targeting and don't benefit from Haste early.

 

[Haplo]

Some people used to believe that you need to be a Dex SS to be tanky...
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....164/BD4AE90B2EBB26672A36E25E522B1B814195B87C/

 

[Shadenuat]

were's your Daring Duelist for purty 85 number?

 

[Desiderius]

Last night my +52 to hit (thx to Smite Evil) Pal was duking it out with a 60AC dragon. Octavia got through his 32 spell resistance thx to her Greater Spell Penetration feats and equipment to land a Chains of Light. It only stuck for a round but it was enough. After dispatching fifteen level ten slaves who were harassing my casters with a 45DC Dazzling Display of her Thug life Dueling Sword (aptly named Menace) Linzi got in there using its Brilliant Energy to land the killing blow on the Dragon. Harrim aptly gave the Dragon the finger, Valerie shook all the bad guys up with her Dirge, and Okbo couldn’t figure out his pathing as usual.

Brilliant Energy does not help against monsters. Sadly, it doesn't even help against the Wild Hunt.

Sadly swordlord Linzi won’t have to worry about that. The description says undead, constructs, and objects. Is natural armor the problem?

Anyway she was like 50% to hit, which surprised me so I assumed it was the Brilliant Energy. Maybe she Shattered his Confidence (Swordlord lvl 5 ability) and denied someone a competence bonus for once in her life. That’s a class that may not be salvageable. Crit on 18, confirmed via Bless Weapon, triggered AoOs via Outflank, dead dragon. Nice when a plan comes together.

 

[Haplo]

Right. Guess I could. But I prefer Great Dreamer's Smile + RoCircumstances.
If I really tried... yeah, I guess with Daring Duelist, RoC: Dex, Shield of Faith it could go higher.
Then again, some would consider it a cheat-build, as its using alternate racial traits to gain +1 Scaly skin and +2 Int.

 

[Haplo]

Last night my +52 to hit (thx to Smite Evil) Pal was duking it out with a 60AC dragon. Octavia got through his 32 spell resistance thx to her Greater Spell Penetration feats and equipment to land a Chains of Light. It only stuck for a round but it was enough. After dispatching fifteen level ten slaves who were harassing my casters with a 45DC Dazzling Display of her Thug life Dueling Sword (aptly named Menace) Linzi got in there using its Brilliant Energy to land the killing blow on the Dragon. Harrim aptly gave the Dragon the finger, Valerie shook all the bad guys up with her Dirge, and Okbo couldn’t figure out his pathing as usual.

Brilliant Energy does not help against monsters. Sadly, it doesn't even help against the Wild Hunt.

Sadly swordlord Linzi won’t have to worry about that. The description says undead, constructs, and objects. Is natural armor the problem?

Anyway she was like 50% to hit, which surprised me so I assumed it was the Brilliant Energy. Maybe she Shattered his Confidence (Swordlord lvl 5 ability) and denied someone a competence bonus for once in her life. That’s a class that may not be salvageable. Crit on 18, confirmed via Bless Weapon, triggered AoOs via Outflank, dead dragon. Nice when a plan comes together.

Yeah, Brilliant does nothing about Natural Armor. And enemies such as that dragon tend to have 30+ Nat AC...
And yeah, don't try to use that enchantment vs the listed enemy groups - it is entirely harmless to them.

 

[Desiderius]

little bit of statistics of Unfair Turn Based mode

castle of knives hit level 18 after worm fight
damage using ie like statistic:

Necro/AT: 101k (damage skyrockets on surprise spells obviously but even without them, even early rods carry you far)
Jaethal Bard/DD/Rogue: 31k (should taken rogue early and half of game tanked/supported/shifted auras, turned pretty badass once higher level items started to show up tho)
Regongar THF/Magus with full Cleave tree: 85k (strongest companion for TB mode imo)
Harrim Mad Dog 4/Druid with Bear: 85k (half him half bear I guess)
Jubilost: 34k (mostly used for controls + NO DEGENERACY policy)
Kanerah: 55k (kinetic abilities do not prock as absurdly as in RTwP and gathering power is harder since you skip turns + NO DEGENERACY policy)

Overall in TB strongest characters are those who are more about action economy or can hit multiple enemies, do area attacks, AOOs etc.

It also proves to me that while it might seem like other classes are op, in reality Wizards/Sorcs/AT, enlarged dudes with big sticks and pet owners rack up damage like crazy when compared to other characters, especially those who are more about single targeting and don't benefit from Haste early.

My general sense is that standard actions are underrated - I.e. you don’t get as many full attacks as you think. Seems like this bears that out.

 

[Haplo]

So, yeah, why not?
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd....164/BD4AE90B2EBB26672A36E25E522B1B814195B87C/

One more if I had access to full power Barkskin. Not sure if it should stack with Transformation though, so meh. Should be good enough

Btw. I've realized I must have respecced him wrong some time ago - to regular Monk instead of Traditional. Well, that will have to do, as I don't feel like redoing his levels again.

 

[Lambach]

Taking down the Big Bads (like the Dragon) with nothing but Maximized Enervation/Energy Drain is a pretty sweet concept, but is often derailed by the fact their Touch ACs are high enough that your clumsy fuck of a caster won't be able to hit 100% of the time even with True Strike. Tried it against Nyrissa in the last playthrough, between missing the Touch attack and SR, it wasn't nearly as effective as I had hoped.

 

[Haplo]

Hitting her might be a pain, yeah. The SR should be an issue. But if you got the masterpiece rod, it trivializes overcoming that challenge (or even immunities).

 

[Lambach]

But if you got the masterpiece rod, it trivializes overcoming that challenge (or even immunities).

I didn't, I wasn't paying much attention to Artisans the last time around, thinking they were still bugged to hell. I'm rectifying that in this playthrough, though, and I notice I'm quite a bit richer at corresponding points in the game. They have a lot of crap I have no use for that sells for mountains of cash.

 

[Shadenuat]

spawn of rovagug is immune to energy drain

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Decided to try EE so loaded up an old save of the last few chapters. Hope it's worth it. Time and again, I'm hearing it's not, that the best is long over.