Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Shadenuat]

you need quadratic equations and apply Bernoulli distribution; if we're doing it - we're doing it

 

[Haplo]

That's fine guys. I'm still going to take Power Attack, lol. Free damage is free damage. I can see Power Attack not being worth it, if you have a character that isn't able to dish out a lot of attacks per round. Which isn't a problem for my monks - see:

Even then, with haste and other buffs, a fighter should still be able to dish out at least 5 attacks per round. One of those hits is bound to hit, and when it does, Power Attack will do it's job.

It's actually opposite. When you have multiple iterative attacks (at progressive AB penalties), Power Attack hurts more then helps, as it greatly lowers the chance for the final attacks to land.

However in your specific case, with 5 max BAB unarmed attacks (uh, how? +2 Flurry, +1 Haste, where does the final one come from?), I guess you don't need to worry about that much.

 

[Pink Eye]

I also forgot to mention. With Outflank + Combat Reflexes + Seize the Moment = multiple attacks of opportunity. What this means is that your chance to hit goes up even more significantly. Power Attack is great. If you build around it. If you just take it by itself, yeah its kind of useless. However if you take the teamwork feats + haste, you should be mowing down encounters like there is no tomorrow. I always take Power Attack on my martial builds, because it is that good.

Best way to know if power attack works is to note down 100 attacks by one of your guys and note how many times he missed by the amount of power attack penalty to hit. Then check if damage lost by that is more or less than if you just didn't use power attack at all.

Yes yes, but the point I'm making here is this. With the amount of attacks that you are dishing out, one of them is going to hit. When it does hit, Power Attack will do it's job, and if it's a critical attack it will proc even more AoOs. Which means even more attacks. I'm basically saying that I'm willing to suffer the possible misses if it means I get that one big hit.

 

[Sykar]

finally decided to drop octavia and get amiri for some second row melee love,whats the best weapon for her fauchard/glaive/bardiche?
though if i build her like that she will get creampasted on later one on one duels with certain story npcs.....

Just enlarge her, then she has reach with any 2-handed weapon.

 

[Pink Eye]

That's fine guys. I'm still going to take Power Attack, lol. Free damage is free damage. I can see Power Attack not being worth it, if you have a character that isn't able to dish out a lot of attacks per round. Which isn't a problem for my monks - see:

Even then, with haste and other buffs, a fighter should still be able to dish out at least 5 attacks per round. One of those hits is bound to hit, and when it does, Power Attack will do it's job.

It's actually opposite. When you have multiple iterative attacks (at progressive AB penalties), Power Attack hurts more then helps, as it greatly lowers the chance for the final attacks to land.

However in your specific case, with 5 max BAB unarmed attacks (uh, how? +2 Flurry, +1 Haste, where does the final one come from?), I guess you don't need to worry about that much.

Flurry of Blows + Haste + BAB + KI Power Extra attack. I can't remember nor can I check. It's been a while, and am taking a break from the game. Unfair Iron man mode kind of burned me out.

 

[Pink Eye]

That's fine guys. I'm still going to take Power Attack, lol. Free damage is free damage. I can see Power Attack not being worth it, if you have a character that isn't able to dish out a lot of attacks per round.

I don't know the game very well yet, but my gut feeling says that Power Attack should be even worse for characters with multiple attacks. DPS should be greatly reduced for such characters when using Power Attack (under non-extreme circumstances). It can't be any other way, unless the Power Attack bonus scales faster (eg, exponentially) than the to-hit penalty, and from what I have seen I don't think it scales faster.

It is not "free damage", unless the enemy is very easy to hit anyway. You pay for it dearly.

>Power Attack should be even worse for characters with multiple attacks
I disagree.
See:

Power Attack makes a difference, IF you can actually hit.

 

[Haplo]

Okay, forgot that Monks can use KI to get extra attacks.

 

[Shadenuat]

let's just use context:

a single round of hitting without PA with something like those sort of weapons would mean that every attack of Pink Eye character regardless if it's full AB or not would hit on 2+.

and let's not forget we have diamond hard CC and ability to turn your attacks into touch attacks on classes like Magus.

 

[Pink Eye]

Okay, forgot that Monks can use KI to get extra attacks.

Yes. It's very short, lasts about 4 seconds, but it does make a difference.

 

[Haplo]

finally decided to drop octavia and get amiri for some second row melee love,whats the best weapon for her fauchard/glaive/bardiche?
though if i build her like that she will get creampasted on later one on one duels with certain story npcs.....

Just enlarge her, then she has reach with any 2-handed weapon.

True. Still, using a reach weapon is convenient. And offers even more reach.

Fauchards are best if you pamper Sahiya artisan - and can get her to deliver something good early.

As for her duel... she doesn't have to get creamed if you put ~10-ish points in UMD and burn all your scrolls and pots on her (and by that time you should have a nice collection).
Actually additionally buy a Mirror Image scroll just for that occasion. She tends to butcher that NPC after some solid self-buffing.

 

[Cael]

That's fine guys. I'm still going to take Power Attack, lol. Free damage is free damage. I can see Power Attack not being worth it, if you have a character that isn't able to dish out a lot of attacks per round.

I don't know the game very well yet, but my gut feeling says that Power Attack should be even worse for characters with multiple attacks. DPS should be greatly reduced for such characters when using Power Attack (under non-extreme circumstances). It can't be any other way, unless the Power Attack bonus scales faster (eg, exponentially) than the to-hit penalty, and from what I have seen I don't think it scales faster.

It is not "free damage", unless the enemy is very easy to hit anyway. You pay for it dearly.

>Power Attack should be even worse for characters with multiple attacks
I disagree.
See:

Power Attack makes a difference, IF you can actually hit.

They are talking about the iterative attacks, which gives a -5 per extra attack. Those ones are boned with PA.

PA is good for people who can get multiple non-iterative attacks, like things with lots of natural attacks and Monks, and also if you want to make one massive devastating attack (e.g., with Skirmish or Leap Attack in 3.5).

 

[ArchAngel]

I also forgot to mention. With Outflank + Combat Reflexes + Seize the Moment = multiple attacks of opportunity. What this means is that your chance to hit goes up even more significantly. Power Attack is great. If you build around it. If you just take it by itself, yeah its kind of useless. However if you take the teamwork feats + haste, you should be mowing down encounters like there is no tomorrow. I always take Power Attack on my martial builds, because it is that good.

Best way to know if power attack works is to note down 100 attacks by one of your guys and note how many times he missed by the amount of power attack penalty to hit. Then check if damage lost by that is more or less than if you just didn't use power attack at all.

Yes yes, but the point I'm making here is this. With the amount of attacks that you are dishing out, one of them is going to hit. When it does hit, Power Attack will do it's job, and if it's a critical attack it will proc even more AoOs. Which means even more attacks. I'm basically saying that I'm willing to suffer the possible misses if it means I get that one big hit.

At this level you are exchanging -4 attack for +8 damage. That is not what I would call one big hit. If we look at your screenshot, you do 3d8+39 with power attack on. So that means you are reducing your hit chance by 20% to get 18% boost to your damage. EDIT: and if your damage of 3d8+39 is before power attack that means you are getting even less of a damage boost.
And your point about getting AoO because of teamwork feats works against your argument because with -4 penalty you are reducing your chance of confirming critical hits and reducing chance of everyone else getting free attacks.

 

[razvedchiki]

the problem with enlarge is that i dont have a reliable source of it,since octavia is out (and even then i would have to sacrifice valuable spell slots)
potions last like 1 min.

 

[Haplo]

Really? I thought nearly all casters were getting Enlarge... I was swimming in those effects. Even a certain late game sword let me cast it 8 times per day.

But seriously, regardless of reach, without Enlarge/Legendary Proportions, how do you intend to do solid damage?

 

[Shadenuat]

At this level you are exchanging -4 attack for +8 damage..

8*8 (amount of attacks per round) = 64 not counting crits; with crits it's almost 1/3 of endgame mob health.

you can boost crit confirm rolls. not that you need to if you hit anyway.

 

[Trashos]

That's fine guys. I'm still going to take Power Attack, lol. Free damage is free damage. I can see Power Attack not being worth it, if you have a character that isn't able to dish out a lot of attacks per round.

I don't know the game very well yet, but my gut feeling says that Power Attack should be even worse for characters with multiple attacks. DPS should be greatly reduced for such characters when using Power Attack (under non-extreme circumstances). It can't be any other way, unless the Power Attack bonus scales faster (eg, exponentially) than the to-hit penalty, and from what I have seen I don't think it scales faster.

It is not "free damage", unless the enemy is very easy to hit anyway. You pay for it dearly.

>Power Attack should be even worse for characters with multiple attacks
I disagree.
See:

Spoiler

Power Attack makes a difference, IF you can actually hit.

I found it very strange when I saw Power Attack in the game, it made me go "Why would anyone want to use that?". The problem comes with the IF you wrote. If, for example, your damage goes up 10% per hit, but your to-hit chance goes down 11%, then the Power Attack is not worth it. Judging by the numbers I am facing in the game this far, the odds look much worse than the example I gave.

Otoh, I have some reservations because of my inexperience with the system at this point. Namely, I do not know how extremely low to-hit chances are handled in this system (when I can only hit on a 20 and I have a -1 to-hit penalty, do I ever hit?), and I am also unaware of what other abilities synergize with Power Attack.

 

[Pink Eye]

I also forgot to mention. With Outflank + Combat Reflexes + Seize the Moment = multiple attacks of opportunity. What this means is that your chance to hit goes up even more significantly. Power Attack is great. If you build around it. If you just take it by itself, yeah its kind of useless. However if you take the teamwork feats + haste, you should be mowing down encounters like there is no tomorrow. I always take Power Attack on my martial builds, because it is that good.

Best way to know if power attack works is to note down 100 attacks by one of your guys and note how many times he missed by the amount of power attack penalty to hit. Then check if damage lost by that is more or less than if you just didn't use power attack at all.

Yes yes, but the point I'm making here is this. With the amount of attacks that you are dishing out, one of them is going to hit. When it does hit, Power Attack will do it's job, and if it's a critical attack it will proc even more AoOs. Which means even more attacks. I'm basically saying that I'm willing to suffer the possible misses if it means I get that one big hit.

At this level you are exchanging -4 attack for +8 damage. That is not what I would call one big hit. If we look at your screenshot, you do 3d8+39 with power attack on. So that means you are reducing your hit chance by 20% to get 18% boost to your damage.
And your point about getting AoO because of teamwork feats works against your argument because with -4 penalty you are reducing your chance of confirming critical hits and reducing chance of everyone else getting free attacks.

>So that means you are reducing your hit chance by 20% to get 18% boost to your damage.
I like these odds.

>And your point about getting AoO because of teamwork feats works against your argument because with -4 penalty you are reducing your chance of confirming critical hits and reducing chance of everyone else getting free attacks.
You might be right. However, I feel you are exaggerating. See - Valerie is making an attack:

The fact of the matter is that Power Attack does boost your dmg. Yes, it doesn't help if you misss, but who cares. Landing that one big hit can be huge on unfair.

 

[Shadenuat]

I do not know how extremely low to-hit chances are handled in this system (when I can only hit on a 20 and I have a -1 to-hit penalty, do I ever hit?

If you only ever hit on 20, you should turn on PA, yes.

 

[Haplo]

...or turn on tactics / cc / buffs / debuffs.

 

[Pink Eye]

I do not know how extremely low to-hit chances are handled in this system (when I can only hit on a 20 and I have a -1 to-hit penalty, do I ever hit?

If you only ever hit on 20, you should turn on PA, yes.

No. If you're able to consistently surpass the AC of the enemy, turn PA on.

 

[Haplo]

Otoh, I have some reservations because of my inexperience with the system at this point. Namely, I do not know how extremely low to-hit chances are handled in this system (when I can only hit on a 20 and I have a -1 to-hit penalty, do I ever hit?), and I am also unaware of what other abilities synergize with Power Attack.

Not often. I remember maybe 4 such challenges, depending on when you tackle them and with what party. But you can always dramatically raise the odds in your favor.

 

[Pink Eye]

...or turn on tactics / cc / buffs / debuffs.

I like to auto attack stuff. CC is for nerds. My monk doesn't need CC. Just prebuff, go up, then auto attack.

 

[Pink Eye]

Haplo I'm not joking. The only time I used CC was on Spawn of Rovagug and the Lantern King.

 

[Trashos]

You are confusing me, guys. When I roll a 20, do I automatically hit regardless of penalties? Or are the penalties taken into account before it is decided whether I hit (even though I rolled a 20)?

 

[Pink Eye]

You are confusing me, guys. When I roll a 20, do I automatically hit regardless of penalties? Or are the penalties taken into account before it is decided whether I hit (even though I rolled a 20)?

Roll 20, then you make another roll to confirm it.