Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Daidre]

Barbs of course stacks since it's his unique thing.

I played Invulnerable Rager Amiri and first thing I've checked is how her DR from class stacks with Armor + Ring. She had ~13-15 DR at Bloom with x2 DR Rage Power.

 

[Shadenuat]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Sykar]

Retarded if armor DR cannot stack with class DR. Guess it time to mod.

 

[Desiderius]

Retarded if armor DR cannot stack with class DR. Guess it time to mod.

It's always time to mod, who are you kidding. In related news it evidently does stack. Next rationale.

Anyway, not getting hit beats getting hit, unless you can stack DR to 100, which may in fact be possible.

 

[Shadenuat]

Maybe it's just for /- or equipment.

 

[Desiderius]

One Bard to Rule Them All:





This time I'm afraid there's no coming back from Mt. Doom.

So reloaded after Farrinas bravely outlasted Amiri at like 7 hp. A good wipe now and then does a gamer good.

This time didn't trigger combat early with a summons, Linzi Dispelled all his buffs and it was over in a round. Maybe I should trigger combat early more often.

 

[ArchAngel]

Retarded if armor DR cannot stack with class DR. Guess it time to mod.

It's always time to mod, who are you kidding. In related news it evidently does stack. Next rationale.

Anyway, not getting hit beats getting hit, unless you can stack DR to 100, which may in fact be possible.

My Invulnerable Rage Barb can usually take two hits before he loses his bonus HP and starts losing his real HP. DR helps a lot with this. Not vs criticals but vs normal hits.

 

[Desiderius]

OK, time for some more criticism (maybe). I don't get the weapon progression in the game. Other than 2-3 types of weapon (eg, dueling swords), the rest don't seem to follow a satisfactory curve of progression.

I did some reading and realize that weapon focus is not a big thing in Kingmaker, and it should probably be delayed until characters have their endgame weapons. it is also potentially useful for specific abilities (dazzling display) and feats, but it would have been nice to have a smoother progression to support this.

Another example: I have a dex-based Vivisectionist dual wielder, so naturally I look for agile weapons to get the most out of my build. But the agile property seems to be kinda randomly distributed in various types of weapons, not certain types that I can specialize in.

So it generally looks like specialization is more of an afterthought or for very specific builds. I find this kind of disappointing, it lessens the personality of builds. At the same time, there are two early companions who specialize in the same weapon for some reason (bastard swords). The whole thing does not seem very well thought out.

Take Weapon Focus in whatever if you need it for a prereq, don't if you don't. Use the best weapon available. That's not a bug or poor design, it's making Martial Proficiency mean something.

The only toons that need to be exclusive are Sword Saints and Exotic users.

 

[Trashos]

Take Weapon Focus in whatever if you need it for a prereq, don't if you don't. Use the best weapon available. That's not a bug or poor design, it's making Martial Proficiency mean something.

The only toons that need to be exclusive are Sword Saints and Exotic users.

I don't know if I would call it "poor", but I am calling it unsatisfactory. Unless I am missing something, there is no "How do I make a build based on daggers?" here.

I do appreciate the fact that I have to switch weapon for certain enemies, I really like this part. But it would be even more powerful if it meant switching out of my specialized weapon, and not just a random powerful weapon I have come across.

 

[Desiderius]

Take Weapon Focus in whatever if you need it for a prereq, don't if you don't. Use the best weapon available. That's not a bug or poor design, it's making Martial Proficiency mean something.

The only toons that need to be exclusive are Sword Saints and Exotic users.

I don't know if I would call it "poor", but I am calling it unsatisfactory. Unless I am missing something, there is no "How do I make a build based on daggers?" here.

I do appreciate the fact that I have to switch weapon for certain enemies, I really like this part. But it would be even more powerful if it meant switching out of my specialized weapon, and not just a random powerful weapon I have come across.

You're missing something*. Try it yourself, it's very viable. Prioritize Kamelands and Naz.

You can even do a Reach Dagger build of all things.

Here's a different variation with Punching Dagger:





* - we all are. That's what makes a great game.

 

[Desiderius]

Take Weapon Focus in whatever if you need it for a prereq, don't if you don't. Use the best weapon available. That's not a bug or poor design, it's making Martial Proficiency mean something.

The only toons that need to be exclusive are Sword Saints and Exotic users.

I don't know if I would call it "poor", but I am calling it unsatisfactory. Unless I am missing something, there is no "How do I make a build based on daggers?" here.

I do appreciate the fact that I have to switch weapon for certain enemies, I really like this part. But it would be even more powerful if it meant switching out of my specialized weapon, and not just a random powerful weapon I have come across.

DEX based pure Vivi is worse than pure Rogue. What not combine them or go STR?

 

[Trashos]

OK, I will wait and see then. I cannot see right now how an artisan will solve the issue of progression (and when I say progression, I mean from start to end), but we 'll see.

DEX based pure Vivi is worse than pure Rogue. What not combine them or go STR?

It is my first build... don't expect too much of it. I just thought Alchemy yeah!, dual wielding yeah!, self buffing yeah!, AC due to DEX yeah! and went with it. That's the level of my current intellect with Kingmaker builds.

It is decently powerful and very fun to play though, I really enjoy self-buffing fighters. So I am not complaining. (next build is going to be a wizard though, to make more room for Nok-Nok and Jubilost).

 

[Desiderius]

OK, I will wait and see then. I cannot see right now how an artisan will solve the issue of progression (and when I say progression, I mean from start to end), but we 'll see.

DEX based pure Vivi is worse than pure Rogue. What not combine them or go STR?

It is my first build... don't expect too much of it. I just thought Alchemy yeah!, dual wielding yeah!, self buffing yeah!, AC due to DEX yeah! and went with it. That's the level of my current intellect with Kingmaker builds.

It is decently powerful and very fun to play though, I really enjoy self-buffing fighters. So I am not complaining. (next build is going to be a wizard though, to make more room for Nok-Nok and Jubilost).

Yeah my first build was built around Precise Strike of all things. Duelist 10 etc... It's fun.

And yeah it sucks that no good daggers drop early and you're stuck with Simple Proficiency/Agile/etc until Naz comes online.

There's a couple good Agile Rapiers (or is that just Bard?) early you can use, but first Agile Simple Light is probably Troublemaker from Naz.

Ultimately Agile isn't that big of a deal since you're getting the bulk of your damage from Sneaks anyway, so you can just use Protector or Lightning Duelist or even Keen Sickle from Ch. 1. Or splash a lvl of a Martial class.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I mean, Communal Delay Poison + (Heightened) Stinking Cloud is a combo that can carry you through 70-ish percent of the game. When you have spells which are simply that superior compared to their more allegedly "powerful" counterparts, it's pretty silly to talk about brilliant game design.

I obviously enjoy the game very much, and I would never spend this much time posting in a thread about it if I didn't, but let's not sugar coat obvious flaws, eh? How are they supposed to improve the sequel if you keep tonguing their balls instead of criticizing things that are supposed to be criticized?

This is going to happen with any pnp game directly adapted to digital format.
These games weren't designed for this sort of powergaming. At a table someone would throw their dice at your head for trying to do the things people do in crpgs.

 

[Desiderius]

I mean, Communal Delay Poison + (Heightened) Stinking Cloud is a combo that can carry you through 70-ish percent of the game. When you have spells which are simply that superior compared to their more allegedly "powerful" counterparts, it's pretty silly to talk about brilliant game design.

I obviously enjoy the game very much, and I would never spend this much time posting in a thread about it if I didn't, but let's not sugar coat obvious flaws, eh? How are they supposed to improve the sequel if you keep tonguing their balls instead of criticizing things that are supposed to be criticized?

This is going to happen with any pnp game directly adapted to digital format.
These games weren't designed for this sort of powergaming. At a table someone would throw their dice at your head for trying to do the things people do in crpgs.

Pretty sure this game is specifically designed exactly for that sort of Powergaming. Just fought Reaford, Ithulliak, Mandranga Ambush, and Farrinas. They laugh at Cloud spam, unless I'm mistaken. It's not hard to find a good challenge if that's what you're seeking.

 

[Lambach]

At a table someone would throw their dice at your head for trying to do the things people do in crpgs.

A really shitty GM would throw dice at your head. Even a semi-decent one would just include a single enemy that can also cast Communal Delay Poison and completely wreck your strategy.

It's impossible to program enemies to predict every possible cheese strategy that hundreds of thousands of players can potentially come up with. However, it shouldn't be too difficult to include enemy spellcasters and script them to adapt at least in most basic terms to what your party does (i.e. the enemy spellcaster's allies just took a buttload of damage from fire -> cast a spell that grants fire resistance).

 

[Pink Eye]

At a table someone would throw their dice at your head for trying to do the things people do in crpgs.

A really shitty GM would throw dice at your head. Even a semi-decent one would just include a single enemy that can also cast Communal Delay Poison and completely wreck your strategy.

It's impossible to program enemies to predict every possible cheese strategy that hundreds of thousands of players can potentially come up with. However, it shouldn't be too difficult to include enemy spellcasters and script them to adapt at least in most basic terms to what your party does (i.e. the enemy spellcaster's allies just took a buttload of damage from fire -> cast a spell that grants fire resistance).

I think Rusty was trying to say that someone not the DM would get upset. I mean I understand how another player would get upset. You'd basically be ruining the fun for the other players.

 

[Efe]

dm could just bring another encounter in
how is it ruining fun?

 

[Pink Eye]

One of these days. ONE OF THESE DAYS!

 

[Pink Eye]

65 exp was not worth it. I should have cut my losses when I failed it the first time....

 

[Desiderius]

One of these days. ONE OF THESE DAYS!

Tristian used up the luck with that Quad 20. Damndest thing I’ve seen in gaming. I was all fired up by the killing blow before I even noticed the previous one.

 

[Haplo]

Retarded if armor DR cannot stack with class DR. Guess it time to mod.

It's always time to mod, who are you kidding. In related news it evidently does stack. Next rationale.

Anyway, not getting hit beats getting hit, unless you can stack DR to 100, which may in fact be possible.

My Invulnerable Rage Barb can usually take two hits before he loses his bonus HP and starts losing his real HP. DR helps a lot with this. Not vs criticals but vs normal hits.

Sounds like he could use a 4-6 level Vivi dip with Preserve Organs x2/3, 50-75% Fortification is real nice for a character that can shrug off most non-crit damage but has bad AC.

 

[LannTheStupid]

At a table someone would throw their dice at your head

Sounds like the Glock is a good addition to dices and character charts for a table-top session.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Found a giant tatzlwyrm looking thing "Crag Linnorm" immediately after claiming my barony. I liked how the cave was gated by 3 creatures that were each Level 8, when my party is level 5 (ish). Not exactly an admission ticket since the creature behind the is Level 16, but enough for my AT to use a wand of vanishing to loot its chamber, ha! Contemplating when I will be bold enough to try and slay it. Still enjoying how this game doesn't hand hold and lets you hang yourself, should you choose to.

 

[Yosharian]

At a table someone would throw their dice at your head for trying to do the things people do in crpgs.

A really shitty GM would throw dice at your head. Even a semi-decent one would just include a single enemy that can also cast Communal Delay Poison and completely wreck your strategy.

It's impossible to program enemies to predict every possible cheese strategy that hundreds of thousands of players can potentially come up with. However, it shouldn't be too difficult to include enemy spellcasters and script them to adapt at least in most basic terms to what your party does (i.e. the enemy spellcaster's allies just took a buttload of damage from fire -> cast a spell that grants fire resistance).

The GM should only include counters to your strategies if it makes sense within the game world. "Word's gotten around about your exploits with deadly poison spells, so [BBEG] started hiring spellcasters who can cast poison protection spells!" is fine. All enemy spellcasters suddenly having Communal Delay Poison memorized, with no in-game explanation as to why, is not OK - that's just the DM ruining your fun.

Furthermore, Delay Poison only delays poisons. So once the spell wears off, you have a bunch of poison saves to make. It's implemented incorrectly in the game, but in PnP Delay Poison isn't a one-stop solution to poisons, far from it.

Anyway, a far better solution to overpowered combos (or just overpowered spells such as Sirocco) is the 'if you use it on me, I can use it on you' approach. If your PCs start abusing a particular spell or combination, then that strategy then becomes one you can use on the PCs - it's only fair. See how they like it when enemy spellcasters start spamming Sirocco on them. Again, this could be explained by "Your exploits with a particularly effective spell have become infamous in these parts... rumour has it that villainous spellcasters in this region have begun researching ways of copying your strategy."

Ultimately the DM is responsible for fine-tuning challenge difficulty at the table, and part of that includes negotiating sensibly with players as to the best way to handle an overpowered spell, or particularly overpowered spell combo. If players refuse to play ball with the DM, a TPK using their own strategy against them could be amusing.. And also fuck up your table's atmosphere, haha.