Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Nerevar]

It isn't a question of viability you've proved anything is viable. It is more about player experience and fun.

Your experiences with the game aren't really indicative of what 99% of the playerbase really wants or experienced when playing the game, itemization is an extremely common complaint about this game (you can google it). Does this observation apply to the .03% who beat the game on unfair? No probably not.

Some things to think about.

Will giving custom tailored loot make more players get further in the game? What is the default Kingmaker (Hedwig)? Does this default kingmaker have extremely convenient and abundant weapons available like lying on a table in your bedroom or a +4 in a well in your capital?

 

[Haplo]

Also if you think about it NWN would give you rewards based on what your weapon focus is. Which is very intelligent game design. Also there was upgrade reagents that could be used to make items but they are limited so you had to choose. In HoTU the intelligent weapon could be a greatsword longsword or shortsword based on what you picked.

Hopefully Owlcat does something like this with the intelligent weapon and loot in future.

A perfect opportunity for the player to get a weapon focused item would be the Jamandi reward for killing the stag lord quickly, sure she's a sword lord so she gives the character a +2 dueling sword but if your character only uses greatswords wouldn't it make more sense to give the player character a +2 greatsword instead?

Having rewards "morph" basing on your proficiencies/abilities greatly cheapens their value IMO. Removes their character. I hated that Celestial Fire and Entropy Blade in Torment could morph into any weapon you fancied... really cheapened them. Dakkon's Zerth Edge was always a katana... and was so much better for it.

 

[Desiderius]

Before you go on ignore in the interest of preventing elder abuse, I've got to hand it to you, Gramps. You pack more wrong into each word than any other commenter on the Codex and the competition is the fiercest. It's something to tell your grandkids about.

Casting a spell is "cheese," cool, got it.

The Cheese is the combination of Delay Poison and persistent effects, which were both implemented in a manner out of line with other abilities/the game's capacity to maintain challenge in their presence. One can wait for the perfect game or simply not use those few abilities. I think we all (except the kid running out of Restoration scrolls in Season) still use Delay Poison for convenience sake, but it's much easier to just avoid the few broken persistent effects.​

Bonus stacking is wrong, it makes owlbears sad.

Making Owlbears sad is my business, and business is good. 90% of abilities do not stack. Finding the ones that do and how to get them (while preventing too much prebuff drudgery) is a big part of gaining the sense of accomplishment that a good game offers those who have mastered it. Which is beside the point of what your're trying to address. This is the bonus stacking you're imagining:

Even there there's another 15 or so you could get if you were really trying. What I was talking about is the basic bonuses you need to hit anything/do any damage at all. Even those dwarf the +2/+2 that is the difference between Season weapons and Pitax weapons. If you're primarily judging weapons by the + you're missing the point of the design.

Give the CR 47 demigod lich a chance, come on guys, play fair.

It's an optional quest. If your Alzheimer's-addled brain can only handle every single fight in the game (including optional ones) being faceroll you've got Dumpsterfire for that. Let the rest of us young'uns have some challenge. As it is the only reason it was a fair fight is because I accidently set it off early. They should let him prebuff since he knows you're coming.​

 

[Desiderius]

It isn't a question of viability you've proved anything is viable. It is more about player experience and fun.

Your experiences with the game aren't really indicative of what 99% of the playerbase really wants or experienced when playing the game, itemization is an extremely common complaint about this game (you can google it). Does this observation apply to the .03% who beat the game on unfair? No probably not.

Some things to think about.

Will giving custom tailored loot make more players get further in the game? What is the default Kingmaker (Hedwig)? Does this default kingmaker have extremely convenient and abundant weapons available like lying on a table in your bedroom or a +4 in a well in your capital?

These are good arguments.

(1) They patched in a lot of items so a lot of those complaints are obsolete. +2 Fire Flail and +2 Shock Jav in Depths cover a lot of ground if you need something to tide you over, Shock/Frost Mace etc...

(2) The weapon in your room is +1 vanilla easily obtainable anywhere, Well isn't open until Pitax so moot

(3) Is Hedwig Greatsword? There are so many good two-handers in the game that you're better off just using Martial Prof to stay best available, which I think is the design (to make Martial Prof matter).

In general if people stick to their preconceptions they're going to have problems beyond itemization. If you're Sawyer you cuck to the preconceptions and make a meh game since preconceptions have been degraded by AAA faceroll. Great games create new preconceptions.


The Design here:

(1) Weapons with unique effects available around midgame/late midgame 100% of the time for each weapon type to build toward (90% achieved).

(2) Random strong weapons/items available before then through artisans to enhance replayability/variety/as reward for good KM/flexibility (i.e. Martial prof which is often devalued by games which force specialization)

(3) Widely available good enough holdovers as you wait for artisan/midgame. They are good enough in the context of skills and abilities spiking during those levels.

(4) Exotics as strongest in class at price of feat to present tradeoff wasting martial vs. added power

(5) A few classes (as opposed to all/most) which trade flexibility for power in unique ways (SS, AD, Monk, Fighter)

 

[DalekFlay]

Got through the bloom shit with 10 restoration scrolls and no going back to town. Very hard stuff on "challenging," without the right equipment, but it felt great to pull it off. By the end I had like 30 max HP on my main because of all the constitution drains, and one hit was game over. Vanish and good placement got me through that issue, along with Valerie being a stalwart defender. I had to pick all long range characters to fight that tree monster thing at the end of the first world section, so I could kite him around and never get hit. Final battle with the second flower took me like 6 tries, I briefly thought it might be impossible, but I pulled it out with Harrim summoning a bunch of skeletons to draw aggro from the top side while almost everyone else killed the bottom spawns. Really fun challenge, felt great to finish it off before bed.

 

[Erebus]

Animate Dead is by far the summoning spell I use the most. Even in the second half of the game, when you can no longer expect them to inflict significant damage, skeletons remain useful simply because they're immune to so many things.

 

[Efe]

high levels summons (axiomites?) spamming hold and lightning bolt is quite mean and very stackable too.

 

[Yosharian]

A perfect opportunity for the player to get a weapon focused item would be the Jamandi reward for killing the stag lord quickly, sure she's a sword lord so she gives the character a +2 dueling sword but if your character only uses greatswords wouldn't it make more sense to give the player character a +2 greatsword instead?

She gives you a Dueling Sword because.... she's a Swordlord. That's a class/weapon that's supported by two unique classes so needs it's own weapons.

Weapon Focus is +1 to hit out of 20-30 midgame. By the time the Weapon you're using matters more than that (with a couple narrow exceptions) you've got better options. I'm sure that game you're playing in your head is a fun one, but it's not P:K.

Lmao imagine this in real life, you walk up to an archer dude who just saved your ass by conquering an entire region for you and you give him a fancy sword because YOU use swords

This makes about as much sense as a fish on a bicycle

 

[Yosharian]

I mean heaven forbid the ruler of a powerful nation give an important subordinate a weapon they actually want or can use, nah fuck that give em a sword every time

 

[Shadenuat]

Owlcats managed to hit the perfect balance in loot: half of it is only worth its cost in BPs, and the other half is OP and you never feel like you truly deserved it.

In the end best piece of loot in the game remains Trollreaper. You do not find it in the lair of Trolls like the bow (lol), go through fairly difficult area to get it, it has party interaction and text with skills and you're like "fuk yea". And it's just an axe with acid damage on it. But, just like in IE games where +1 electrical damage on Ashedeena or +1 cold damage on Varscona means going through stoneskins and interrupting enemy casters, so does acid damage at that point of the game is unique and desirable.

Replaying BG1, I so enjoy the elegance of it. It's only 1 pair of boots for +5 AC against missiles, so they go on 17 hp wizard. It's only 1 shield with +AC against them, so it goes on low dex dwarf. Only one +3 staff so goes to someone who won't be on front lines. Only one pair of gloves of DEX so it goes to party tank. And man Ajantis does some work against werewolves and doppels with his +1/+3 bastard against shapeshifters (after being buffed by whole party and a wagon of potions, cause he's just a guy with 17 str and 2 pips in swords). And so on.

In the utopian Pathfinder of the future, every item should feel like Trollreaper.

(It won't tho. Owlcats would be busy making HoMM 3 work in our BG 3. Also most people were butthurt there were too few items, and not enough of their 1 chosen exotic rare thing, so I'd expect WoTR cram a mountain of loot in the game.)

 

[Desiderius]

Lmao

A wounded Deer –leaps highest –
I've heard the Hunter tell –
'Tis but the ecstasy of death –
And then the Brake is still!

The smitten Rock that gushes!
The trampled Steel that springs!
A Cheek is always redder
Just where the Hectic stings!

Mirth is the Mail of Anguish –
In which it cautious Arm,
Lest Anybody spy the blood
And "you're hurt" exclaim!

- F180 (1860)

Laugh all you like, doesn't change your ignorance.

She's the head of a prestigious order of Swordlords (you get her backstory from the Storyteller when you collect the Restovic Artifacts in ch. 1) offering you the weapon of the Order - a tremendous honor and implied invitation to join the Order yourself. You're not her underling, yet. She hopes you choose to become one.

Note the enchantment on the Sword. What do you know, another Codexer who doesn't grok loyalty.

 

[Desiderius]

In the utopian Pathfinder of the future, every item should feel like Trollreaper.

This.

If P:K cut every number in half and Dumpsterfire doubled every number they'd both improve greatly.

 

[Efe]

there were weapon types you couldnt find a single (nonmagical) one of at release.. your baseless whining is irritating shad

 

[Desiderius]

there were weapon types you couldnt find a single (nonmagical) one of at release.. your baseless whining is irritating shad

Release was a clusterfuck.

What's your point?

 

[Efe]

that complatints regarding weapon unavailability are valid

hes downplaying a serious flaw to fit his shitty low-magic favoring narrative

 

[Shadenuat]

Serusflaw? Just use best weapons you find lol.

(Except Slings. No Slings is a sin I won't forgive them for. It's literally racism to halflings.)

 

[Desiderius]

that complatints regarding weapon unavailability are valid

hes downplaying a serious flaw to fit his shitty low-magic favoring narrative

They were at release. They're not now. Not complicated. High magic should be earned, rare, and meaningful.

Guild Wars you had to capture your elite skills from hard to find bosses. That sort of shit is cool. Like how P:K does with Bane of the Living or the Varnhold dog. Makes games great. Hurr durr lookie here +4 Hammer Giant Bane at VTomb front door doesn't.

 

[Desiderius]

Serusflaw? Just use best weapons you find lol.

(Except Slings. No Slings is a sin I won't forgive them for. It's literally racism to halflings.)

And Druids. Ranged Druid is a PITA.

 

[Shadenuat]

Varnhold DLC does things right.

 

[Yosharian]

So she's giving him a sword because she wants him to... use swords from now on, like her? That is the most retarded shit I've ever heard. You are the most pretentious tit on here I swear to god

It's a fucking game give me a weapon I can use, end of story, this isn't a Game of Thrones visual novel, it's a fucking RPG

 

[Efe]

people were asking for items at release.
how many posts has there been after they were added? he feels the need to bash those complaints still...

you were told this just above but i guess needs repeating. aldoris sword is symbolic. its a gift from a swordlord, and is their signature weapon. she doesnt ask you to wield it in battle against your enemies or anything. also how many other weapons did you see in-game with that enchantment?

 

[Desiderius]

So she's giving him a sword because she wants him to... use swords from now on, like her? That is the most retarded shit I've ever heard. You are the most pretentious tit on here I swear to god

It's a fucking game give me a weapon I can use, end of story, this isn't a Game of Thrones visual novel, it's a fucking RPG

Not pretense. It's real, and its spectacular.

 

[Yosharian]

It's fucking useless then

 

[Yosharian]

You know what else is symbolic and also coincidentally completely useless

The Aldori Swordlord prestige class

It's all starting to make sense

 

[Desiderius]

You know what else is symbolic and also coincidentally completely useless

The Aldori Swordlord prestige class

It's all starting to make sense

It would be great if mobs prebuffed like players (the main point of the class is to turn off buffs*). As it is...

* - also DEX to damage and reducing cost of Fighting Defensively/Combat Expertise (DEX alternative to SS/Monk splash). It's better than it looks but the opportunity cost is too high. It's balanced at the level I wish the game were rather than where it is.

Aldori Defender is solid, but should come with Weapon Focus to compete with SS.