Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Xamenos]

You know what else is symbolic and also coincidentally completely useless

The Aldori Swordlord prestige class

It's all starting to make sense

It would be great if mobs prebuffed like players (the main point of the class is to turn off buffs*). As it is...

I could not agree more. Mage duels in Baldur's Gate 2 were frigging great, made me feel like a proper mage tearing through layer after layer of defense with meticulous application of my spells. Until I discovered Keldorn and his Carsomyr could cut through all that bullshit like the gordian knot, but I digress.

Pathfinder wouldn't allow something like that, of course, but even just having to use dispell every once in a while would do wonders for the game. I hope this is part of what they mean for WotR's Unfair when they say enemies will play smarter and use more abilities instead of getting flat buffs.

 

[Nerevar]

So freebooter gives your entire team +6 for free? Instead of having a pet.

So how does it work any target the freebooter attacks gives the party a +6?

The Slayer does it automatically on sneak attack but it is much weaker I think.

 

[Yosharian]

So freebooter gives your entire team +6 for free? Instead of having a pet.

So how does it work any target the freebooter attacks gives the party a +6?

The Slayer does it automatically on sneak attack but it is much weaker I think.

I mean giving up an animal companion is pretty brutal

Also it's a move action everytime you want to designate a new target

 

[LannTheStupid]

So she's giving him a sword because she wants him to... use swords from now on, like her?

Do American forces have a tradition of rewarding officers with special weapons for valor and service? In the Soviet Army there were special pistols with congratulations and the signature of the General Commanding Officer engraved.

The is what Lord Protector is. The name is hinting at something...

 

[Heroic Liberator]

So she's giving him a sword because she wants him to... use swords from now on, like her?

Do American forces have a tradition of rewarding officers with special weapons for valor and service? In the Soviet Army there were special pistols with congratulations and the signature of the General Commanding Officer engraved.

Just like there were swords in the Wehrmacht and later on the Volksarmee. The East German version being:

Fun fact: Finland still offers doctoral swords to PhD earners.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

In the Soviet Army there were special pistols with congratulations and the signature of the General Commanding Officer engraved

Those engravings don't offer any sort of tactical advantage whatsoever.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Those engravings don't offer any sort of tactical advantage whatsoever.

So lady Jamandi is even more generous, as she rewards the Baron with +2 magic weapon.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Lord Protector is also kind of symbolic to her hope of what the baron would be in relation to Rostland independence. I think that was a nice touch.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Swords were immensely valuable,a symbol of station, and a tool of might for millennia in every culture on earth that made it to the bronze age. Pathfinder is medevil fantasy. Don't be dense.

 

[Yosharian]

So she's giving him a sword because she wants him to... use swords from now on, like her?

Do American forces have a tradition of rewarding officers with special weapons for valor and service? In the Soviet Army there were special pistols with congratulations and the signature of the General Commanding Officer engraved.

Just like there were swords in the Wehrmacht and later on the Volksarmee. The East German version being:

Fun fact: Finland still offers doctoral swords to PhD earners.

Yes but you're missing the point, a) that's real life not a videogame, b) we haven't needed actual swords to defend ourselves since the industrial revolution

 

[Desiderius]

just having to use dispell every once in a while would do wonders for the game. I hope this is part of what they mean for WotR's Unfair when they say enemies will play smarter and use more abilities instead of getting flat buffs.

Dispel turns out to be quite handy late when you can get your effective level on Dispel, Greater up to 26. A few bosses show up with a buff or two, then they cast several pretty quickly at the beginning of combat. But yeah, would be better game if it was far more widespread and varied/mirrored good human play. You'd think they could have an AI vs AI tournament or something for learning effective tactics.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Yes but you're missing the point, a) that's real life not a videogame, b) we haven't needed actual swords to defend ourselves since the industrial revolution

Am I? These items serve a symbolic function, not a martial one (at least not primarily).

There are plenty of other weapons to find in PfK, so there's no reason to feel gimped as it were because you've picked a class which renders the sword useless.

 

[Desiderius]

Swords were immensely valuable,a symbol of station, and a tool of might for millennia in every culture on earth that made it to the bronze age. Pathfinder is medevil fantasy. Don't be dense.

He's convinced himself that dense saves face better than being temporarily wrong about something. Now two things.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm speaking to a greater point about the offering of static rewards that nearly always end up useless to the player, rather than specifically this incident with the dueling sword. Of course it makes sense that an NPC might offer a symbolic reward, but from a gaming perspective it is absolutely better if you are at least offered a variety of rewards.

For example, if she said "well you can have this dueling sword but wait I see you favour greatswords, would you prefer such a weapon?" why yes thanks a lot I would prefer a weapon I can actually use vs. something that's instantly designated as vendor trash. This is a fucking CRPG, I have no use at all for an ornamental weapon that nobody in my team can use.

And if the point is solely to offer a role-playing reward rather than a mechanical one, then have the weapon actually be ornamental and shove it on the wall next to that giant owlbear rug, and just give me the GP instead, that saves me the trouble of visiting the capital square trader.

In my recent playthrough of BG2 I have Jaheira equipped with that locket you can give her as part of her romance, it serves absolutely no purpose at all but it was nice to equip it anyway. Point being, I'm absolutely not averse to a bit of role-playing flavour. You're preaching to the choir if you're making that point. MY point is that we can do better with quest rewards, for example as Nerevar pointed out, if the game reads your feats and sees that you favour Estocs, and then Jamandi is like 'I heard you like estocs so check out this bad-ass ceremonial estoc we made for you with my house's emblem on it' then that would be really awesome.

And that would be an ACTUAL role-playing moment there because you'd want to use the estoc but you might not want to walk around wearing her emblem on your weapon... that right there is 150x more impactful, RP-wise, than just the gifting of a static quest reward which 95% of the time is just going to get vendored without a second thought.

 

[Desiderius]

So freebooter gives your entire team +6 for free? Instead of having a pet.

So how does it work any target the freebooter attacks gives the party a +6?

The Slayer does it automatically on sneak attack but it is much weaker I think.

I mean giving up an animal companion is pretty brutal

Also it's a move action everytime you want to designate a new target

You use it with other non-pet classes. It's a great 10-level splash to get Combat Style Feats, Lead Blades, +3/+3 on Bane, and Bond. The Move Action on Bane goes great with Standard Actions like Charge (which you use to move since you don't have your move action), Cleave, and Vital Strike.

Amiri is ideal for this since the move action Bane keeps her out of combat for a beat so mobs can focus on tanks. Then she charges in.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm speaking to a greater point about the offering of static rewards that nearly always end up useless to the player, rather than specifically this incident with the dueling sword. Of course it makes sense that an NPC might offer a symbolic reward, but from a gaming perspective it is absolutely better if you are at least offered a variety of rewards.

For example, if she said "well you can have this dueling sword but wait I see you favour greatswords, would you prefer such a weapon?" why yes thanks a lot I would prefer a weapon I can actually use vs. something that's instantly designated as vendor trash. This is a fucking CRPG, I have no use at all for an ornamental weapon that nobody in my team can use.

And if the point is solely to offer a role-playing reward rather than a mechanical one, then have the weapon actually be ornamental and shove it on the wall next to that giant owlbear rug, and just give me the GP instead, that saves me the trouble of visiting the capital square trader.

It's not purely symbolic. If you join her Order, you'll use the Sword, and its a good one for that time of the game since AD and AS have weak Will saves. There is very little payoff for favoring Greatswords narrowly. You're used to other games which forced specialization. This one doesn't.

 

[Desiderius]

So freebooter gives your entire team +6 for free? Instead of having a pet.

So how does it work any target the freebooter attacks gives the party a +6?

The Slayer does it automatically on sneak attack but it is much weaker I think.

You give a mob the finger (Freebooter's Bane) and any attack on that mob gets +1 to hit/+1 damage at lvl one, with another +1/+1 at lvl 5, 10, 15, and 20. At lvl four your get Freebooter's Bond which gives your team +2 to hit when flanking, which stacks with Outflank, so that's where the +6 comes from.

Studied Target only benefits the Slayer unless you use the Vanguard's Bond to share it, but that is only half and it rounds down so you have to wait until lvl 15 to get +2/+2. You get +1/+1 right away so its not awful, but the +2/+2 should really kick in at lvl ten for it to be worth doing.

 

[Yosharian]

Yes but you're missing the point, a) that's real life not a videogame, b) we haven't needed actual swords to defend ourselves since the industrial revolution

Am I? These items serve a symbolic function, not a martial one (at least not primarily).

There are plenty of other weapons to find in PfK, so there's no reason to feel gimped as it were because you've picked a class which renders the sword useless.

The point has already been made several times that, on launch, there were many weapons that had ZERO magical versions. Like, in the game. At all.

Even now there are certain weapons that are way overrepresented, and others that have maybe one or two +1s/+2s and nothing else. So please don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

 

[Desiderius]

Even now there are certain weapons that are way overrepresented, and others that have maybe one or two +1s/+2s and nothing else. So please don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

There are no weapons at this point with only +1/+2s and nothing else. That's not piss on your head, it's flopsweat.

At launch is irrelevant.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Even now there are certain weapons that are way overrepresented, and others that have maybe one or two +1s/+2s and nothing else. So please don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

There are no weapons at this point with only +1/+2s and nothing else. That's not piss on your head, it's flopsweat.

At launch is irrelevant.

And two wrongs don't make a right, might I add.

 

[Nerevar]

Yeah if you pick Greatsword you are gimped in item choice compared to great axe.

Bastard Sword and Greataxe have the greatest amount of big ticket items available. So it is always good to focus on these.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Itemization can be better yeah but you are blowing up like that Aldori duelist sword is like one of five uniques in the game. It really isn't at least not in current version.

By your argument every single unique weapon drop in the game have to be a choice of weapon that you want.

Should I be butthurt that bows uniques are stupidly good (heck you can use Devourer of Steel for the whole fucking game. And you got it in Chapter 2!) in PfK because I am playing a melee class and the fact that we only have 1 bow user in the party?

 

[Desiderius]

Example of a solo diplo check for decent exp (let Jhod talk first):

I guess this is karma for giving Yosh a hard time (still no Oppressor after being flooded previous games):



There'll be no Living Slaying on Nok-nok's watch, Tsanna. The Pimp Hand of Lamashtu is strong.

The Swordlord class, running a test tomorrow:

Morale is Bless/Heroism/Good Hope. Competence is Inspire Courage/Barb Stance.

Also, new plan. Too much overlap between MC Archaelogist and Linzi Bard, also Nok-nok needs Alchemist support but I'm not running Jub this time outside his quests. So MC Grenadier incoming. This class is nuts:

 

[Yosharian]

Itemization can be better yeah but you are blowing up like that Aldori duelist sword is like one of five uniques in the game. It really isn't at least not in current version.

By your argument every single unique weapon drop in the game have to be a choice of weapon that you want.

Should I be butthurt that bows uniques are stupidly good (heck you can use Devourer of Steel for the whole fucking game. And you got it in Chapter 2!) in PfK because I am playing a melee class and the fact that we only have 1 bow user in the party?

I mean you're misrepresenting my argument a bit but OK, maybe I have gone on about it a bit too much. In my defense, I was bored at work.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah if you pick Greatsword you are gimped in item choice compared to great axe.

Bastard Sword and Greataxe have the greatest amount of big ticket items available. So it is always good to focus on these.

Unless you have a specific reason to do so, it's better not to focus at all outside of two-handers/TWF/finesse, etc...

I've gone on a bit much too, but I think this (half random, half determined - rewarding flexibility/martial prof) was as much a deliberate design decision as some sort of flaw, outside of the initial missing items of course.