Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
And also about the crits... so unless magus/paladin mostly support or heavy reliant on sneaks maybe, Improved Critical is a must. Even moreso with the OP Teamwork crit proc feats like Outflank and Seize the Moment. Keen weapons aren't that common and are mainly low enchanted variants (like +1 Keen).

By the time you get Improved Crit you've got a better idea of what weapons showed up from artisans.

You can use the Focus as a prereq without sweating losing it via using a better weapon.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
I think it's a lot harder to make a Bard work than a Sylvan Sorcerer.

Bard's contributions are irreplaceable. The question is Arcane + Bard or Bard + something else. Relying on Arcane CC early is a recipe for rest spam, and Web is a PITA. Both get Grease right away and Bard gets Laughter and Call.

Obv pet is OP but you can get pets anywhere.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,873
Location
Grand Chien
AKSHUALLY they don't really get to skip any pre-reqs, to get Shatter they have to take Dazzling as the initial feat, and WF isn't that great to 'skip'. Further, the other feats in the chain are pretty bad.
Dreadful Carnage as third feat in Menacing Style is excellent too. I barely use any manual means to apple Shaken for Shatter with Carnage + Frightful Aspect on higher levels.
Ehhhhhh it's okay
 

Daidre

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
2,003
Location
Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Once you get Improved Cleaving Finish you end up with some ridiculous chains. Does require Enlargement/Reach to hit the mobs.

I was always conflicted about Greater Cleave/Cleaving Finish in D&D game. It is super cool when you encounter situation where it works perfectly but depending on dungeon design it could be a dead weight for more than a half of time.

Interesting. Thought you needed DD to get Shatter.
I sometimes even build Slayer archers with Intimidating Prowess > Shatter Defenses > Dreadful Carnage. It is a bit fiddly to keep enemies in Carnage radius on kill, but surprisingly good, since Archery style's feats could be easily taken with standard feats/Combat Trick and there is no need for prereq-skipping with them.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
the problem is that everything about character building was totally worthless around launch simply due to the game complete refusal to give you a single challenging encounter.

But, but, ultimate challenge!

Yeah, you nailed it.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,873
Location
Grand Chien
Animal companions are awesome in this game and a lot of classes have access to this feature: Druid, Sorcerer, Cleric, Ranger, Inquisitor, Barbarian. You just need to buff them as much as you can and you won't really need a "tank" character. It's not a bad idea to have two or more animal companions in the same group.
Buffing up your tank's/animal companion's Armor Class is a good idea if you plan to play on normal difficulty, so look for spells that give different bonuses of different types (two bonuses of the same type don't stack, you benefit only from the highest one). An Alchemist is great at this because he can cast Shield on other characters with the Infusion Discovery. Another great AC buff for animal companions is Barkskin, but only Druids, Alchemists, Rangers and Clerics with Plant domain can cast this spell.

This is great advice. I don't find the traditional Arcane caster to be necessary, especially early game. Bard OP (can sing and cast/fight simultaneously).

Start on Easy as you're learning then kick it up as necessary. You will.
To me, at low levels, the benefits of bard's songs and combat abilities are not enough to justify the slower spells progression. A Sylvan Sorcerer brings to the table more spells with a faster progression and its animal companion combat capabilities are far superior than anything the bard can do fighting-wise. I think it's a lot harder to make a Bard work than a Sylvan Sorcerer.
Early Heroism & Hideous Laughter + lots of casts per day? Good skill points? Bard has lots of good points. Dirge of Doom is auto-Shaken for 8 levels.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Archery style's feats could be easily taken with standard feats/combat and there is no need for prereq-skipping with them.

That's exactly what I figured out. If you go ranged TWF that keeps you in range for DC, but that's a lot of feats and the item support isn't really there.

If you use Enlarge and/or Reach (preferably on Freebooter) Great Cleave will blow through trash fights.
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,811
Finally got this game. Might start this week-end. Anything you wish you'd known before starting ?
I'm not too familiar with pathfinder, I only know there's a million character development options available.
Hit a brother up with knowledge.

- Some things are poorly explained in the game itself and you'll have to check on the Net to see how they work. Negative conditions, for instance. There's a big difference between "sickened" (-2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, etc.) and "nauseated" (unable to do anything except move), but the effects are not detailed in the descriptions of the spells/abilities that can inflict those conditions.

- As mentioned, you should focus on main quests first. The only exception is during the first part of the game, in which it matters little how long you take to defeat the bandits as long as it's less than 3 months (which is more than enough).

- Once you have your barony, you'll get to appoint advisors to take care of development projects and minor problems. Some of the projects are pretty much traps : they take too long or cost too much compared to the benefits they bring. Restoring the temple of the Elm, for instance, is not something you should do early. Studying curses is only useful if you're aiming for a specific ending.

- There are a lot of useful spells you can use to buff your party. One of the most important ones is Delay Poison, Communal. Poison can be really annoying in this game, but that spell offers full protection against it for an entire hour.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Finally got this game. Might start this week-end. Anything you wish you'd known before starting ?
I'm not too familiar with pathfinder, I only know there's a million character development options available.
Hit a brother up with knowledge.

- Some things are poorly explained in the game itself and you'll have to check on the Net to see how they work. Negative conditions, for instance. There's a big difference between "sickened" (-2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, etc.) and "nauseated" (unable to do anything except move), but the effects are not detailed in the descriptions of the spells/abilities that can inflict those conditions.

- As mentioned, you should focus on main quests first. The only exception is during the first part of the game, in which it matters little how long you take to defeat the bandits as long as it's less than 3 months (which is more than enough).

- Once you have your barony, you'll get to appoint advisors to take care of development projects and minor problems. Some of the projects are pretty much traps : they take too long or cost too much compared to the benefits they bring. Restoring the temple of the Elm, for instance, is not something you should do early. Studying curses is only useful if you're aiming for a specific ending.

- There are a lot of useful spells you can use to buff your party. One of the most important ones is Delay Poison, Communal. Poison can be really annoying in this game, but that spell offers full protection against it for an entire hour.

Once you've landed a spell/ability that grants those conditions you can use the Inspect button (the eyeball, might as well keep it always on) then right click the mob and it will give you at list of the conditions that mob is suffering from. Mouse over each condition for an explanation.

Cacophonus Hargulka.jpg

If you complete ch1 in a month or less you get a unique reward.

There are curses that have other benefits, and they all raise stats, but often a card will come up that raises them more. Restoring the Temple unlocks a valuable Region Upgrade. Something to keep advisors busy midgame, not early.

Delay Poison, Communal becomes available at fifth level at the earliest. Before then you can buy a scroll with it from Jhod (your Clerics can then use the scroll once you're in the area where you need it) or use the third level spell Delay Poison to protect one toon, usually Amiri. Val starts with a very high Fortitude save and high AC so can usually survive without it. If you do get posioned the Treat Affliction skill can stop the (stat) bleeding if you make the save (based on Lore (Religion)). You'll still need to treat the stat damage with Restoration, Lesser or heal one point per rest (two using Tristian's special ability). Kind of a pain, which is why most people just keep Delay up in areas with Poison.
 
Last edited:

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,335
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Come on, there is a ton of weapons in Deadfire. Even more with the DLC. Sure, there are a few categories left that are underrepresented, but most have variety and REALLY interesting uniques.

Totally agree while still wanting the effects to be less marginal. After first playthrough was hard to motivate myself to actually enchant anything even while I admired the depth and variety of design.

Dumpsterfire is the M:tG Fallen Empires of crpgs.

Marginal? Like doing aoe damage instead of single target? Changing the targeted defensive stat (like Reflex instead of typical physical Deflection)? Doing additional strikes on crit or when attacking weakened enemies? Temporarily negating recovery to strike with lightning speed (an effect that, like all other OP buffs, can be extended with a certain spell)? Launching aoes on crit or on kill? Doing DoTs that are actually lethal? Enabling Interrupts on every crit? Summoning on kill? Creating party-friendly aoes that damage, blind and Paralyze enemies? Charming enemies? And many, many more...

Furthermore many of those effects combo in crazy synergies with builds and other equipment (like aoe weapon x aoe attack ability... as one of the simpler but flashy examples). The depth is insane...
 

Erebus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
4,811
Once you've landed a spell/ability that grants those conditions you can use the Inspect button (the eyeball, might as well keep it always on) then right click the mob and it will give you at list of the conditions that mob is suffering from. Mouse over each condition for an explanation.

Yeah, but it'd be nicer to have those explanations when you have to choose your spells and feats.


You'll still need to treat the stat damage with Restoration, Lesser or heal one point per rest (two using Tristian's special ability). Kind of a pain, which is why most people just keep Delay up in areas with Poison.

In pen-and-paper Pathfinder, I believe that stat damage can only kill you if it applies to Con (a Str or Dex score lowered to 0 paralyzes you, mental stats lowered to 0 put you in a coma). But in Kingmaker, a character will die if any of his stats is lowered to 0. That makes certain enemies a lot more dangerous than they would otherwise be.

Jaethal can be a useful tank against such enemies, as her stats cannot be lowered.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
Location
Russia
Marginal? Like doing aoe damage instead of single target? Changing the targeted defensive stat (like Reflex instead of typical physical Deflection)? Doing additional strikes on crit or when attacking weakened enemies? Temporarily negating recovery to strike with lightning speed (an effect that, like all other OP buffs, can be extended with a certain spell)? Launching aoes on crit or on kill? Doing DoTs that are actually lethal? Enabling Interrupts on every crit? Summoning on kill? Creating party-friendly aoes that damage, blind and Paralyze enemies? Charming enemies? And many, many more...

Furthermore many of those effects combo in crazy synergies with builds and other equipment (like aoe weapon x aoe attack ability... as one of the simpler but flashy examples). The depth is insane...
95% of 5% of the time.

also >half of this is just fiddling with things for more dps ("temporarily negating recovery" god this sentence alone makes me want to fall asleep), other half your wizard can do it. game neither requires or becomes that much better if you do this.
 
Last edited:

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,598
does harrim vanish from house if you have kineticist sisters? hes not in his room.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
In pen-and-paper Pathfinder, I believe that stat damage can only kill you if it applies to Con (a Str or Dex score lowered to 0 paralyzes you, mental stats lowered to 0 put you in a coma). But in Kingmaker, a character will die if any of his stats is lowered to 0. That makes certain enemies a lot more dangerous than they would otherwise be.

Jaethal can be a useful tank against such enemies, as her stats cannot be lowered.

Once you get a handle on the game it should never get to near that point. Even if you get caught with your pants (Delay Posion) down you should still have at least one toon with high Treat Affliction to stop the bleeding. There are also a good number of Lesser Restoration Scrolls, potions, and even a wand lying around.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Marginal? Like doing aoe damage instead of single target? Changing the targeted defensive stat (like Reflex instead of typical physical Deflection)? Doing additional strikes on crit or when attacking weakened enemies? Temporarily negating recovery to strike with lightning speed (an effect that, like all other OP buffs, can be extended with a certain spell)? Launching aoes on crit or on kill? Doing DoTs that are actually lethal? Enabling Interrupts on every crit? Summoning on kill? Creating party-friendly aoes that damage, blind and Paralyze enemies? Charming enemies? And many, many more...

No, that's not marginal. The marginal stuff.

Like the massive yawning gap between penetration and overpenetration where nothing matters, and even overpen doesn't matter nearly enough (shouldn't need a special weapon or skill to make it matter - compare 130% to 200/300/400 in P:K).

Yeah, single to AoE is always busted, just like Surprise Spells and Deadly Earth in P:K. Obv Charming enemies (too, as always) great, my first MC was Beguiler/Debonair when the faceroll was even worse.

Feast or famine.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,335
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Marginal? Like doing aoe damage instead of single target? Changing the targeted defensive stat (like Reflex instead of typical physical Deflection)? Doing additional strikes on crit or when attacking weakened enemies? Temporarily negating recovery to strike with lightning speed (an effect that, like all other OP buffs, can be extended with a certain spell)? Launching aoes on crit or on kill? Doing DoTs that are actually lethal? Enabling Interrupts on every crit? Summoning on kill? Creating party-friendly aoes that damage, blind and Paralyze enemies? Charming enemies? And many, many more...

Furthermore many of those effects combo in crazy synergies with builds and other equipment (like aoe weapon x aoe attack ability... as one of the simpler but flashy examples). The depth is insane...
95% of 5% of the time.

That's just a meme. A false one, too (barring some weapons that WERE nerfed.. so maybe like... 10% of the time?)
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
So lets look at the Swordlord Prestige Class. Is it worthless? Not exactly. It will be great when the SCS-style mod that adds in pre-buffing/tactical play comes along since it's the only class that can turn off buffs and the effects of Bard Songs. Until then lets look at what we have:

Swordlord Class.jpg

No onerous prereqs that would be otherwise bad - you need the 3 Mobility to get 3 AC from Fighting Defensively and the other thing covered up there is Persuasion which is handy on a main character and ends up being required by the Swordlord class itself. It does take Persuasion 5 so you're not getting there until level 6, which can be a problem with:

Level 1: Deft Strike

Only other ways to get DEX to damage are via feat, agile weapons, or Rogue 3, so this is a solid full BAB level (most lvl ones aren't). Only problem is waiting until lvl 6 to get it since the first agile Dueling Sword is being guarded in ch 2 by some very mean Owlbears. Will get into ways around that in the builds.

Level 2: Display Weapon Prowess

As a non-offensive caster you can't afford to invest in jacking your CHR too high, and the bonus feats aren't going to be there to let you take a skill boosting feat either so this one is a life-saver to make sure you can clear skill checks in dialogues and function properly with later Swordlord abilities which require Intimidation checks. +5 from levels, +2 or 3 depending from Feats ends up being both good value and sorely needed.

Level 3: Defensive Parry

+1 Feats are meh and every level you spend in Swordlord is a feat you aren't getting from Fighter so this level is subpar.

Level 4: Adaptive Tactics

Effectively +2 to hit if you're using Fighting Defensively (which you will be) and Combat Expertise (which you usually don't, but this ability facilitates) and an additional +2 to hit and AC if you pass a Perception check (a skill you almost always want to stack anyway). This is a rock solid level and a reason to play the class.

Level 5: Shatter Confidence

Free Cornugon Smash on Crit or Disarm (see first build below) or if already Shaken another -1 to AB and Saves and loses Morale bonuses (Bless, Aid, Heroism, Good Hope) on Saves and attacks on anyone. OK but lackluster until prebuffing implemented then the heart of the class.

Level 6: Saving Slash

-25% crits. If you build well you'll be in 1 in 400 crit territory by midgame, or 1 in 20 if you're using Harrim's Destructive Aura. On Unfair that one can kill you if you don't have Image. This makes it 3/1600 or 3/80. Not a fan of these mechanics but does reduce reloads, enhance survivability.

Level 7: Dexterous Duelist

Don't provoke AoOs when standing up from Prone. This is one of the ways you die, especially if you're a Grease user. By the time you get this you've already left most of the wolves behind tho. Add in another +1 AC from Parry and it's a barely passable level. Full BAB for all these levels does help though. If you actually level up a Swordlord through a playthough this is where things feel like they're starting to slip away as the other classes gain all sorts of cool abilities.

Level 8: Adaptive Tactics 2

Another effective +2 AB full BAB which is a solid level

Level 9: Saving Slash 2

-50% crits. Things getting thin here. One shots are your Achilles Heel, so guess it could be worth it.

Level 10: Shatter Confidence 2

Another -1 to Saves and Attacks, plus canceling Insight and Competence (Bard Songs/Barb Stances) bonuses. That's attacks against anyone and saves against any spell or abilty so better than it looks (effectively a group buff), but not worth it until you get pre-buffing/enemy Bard Songs.

So to sum up at this point a solid 4 or 6 level splash for a unique, lore-friendly experience, or all ten if you really need the crit dodging or you're playing a sweet SCS-style mod in the future.

First build to follow.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Swordlord build one:

Swordlord Feats.jpg


The Adaptive Tactics ability of Swordlord adds value to Combat Expertise (as does full BAB all the way), which then adds value to Disarm (Shatter Confidence also triggers a free Cornugon Smash when Disarm hits) since you've got the prereq. Disarming Strike and Steel Net fit with this foundation like hand in glove, and there's your build.

As a human you get Dazzling Display at lvl one, giving you something to do while waiting for DEX to damage at lvl 6. AD bonus feats are much needed on the road to making Disarm work with Agile Maneuvers at lvl 4. You can also use whatever agile weapons you find or chip away with the +1 Dueling Sword laying around at Old Sycamore. Disarming Strike + Greater Disarm/Shatter Defenses is when you really start to dominate. Adaptive Defenses + Persuasive + the inevitable climb of full BAB pushes you over the top. Steel Net + Adaptive 2 means Fighting Defensively has no cost at all.

Once your iteratives come in you use (Standard Action) Disarm on turns you have to move, then clean up on the AoOs generated by toons attacking unarmed and untrained. If not yet dead your full attacks the following turn finish them off.

Should have Shake it Off with Fighter's Tactics in there somewhere I think.

Anyway, here's how it looks in action:

Adaptive Tactics.jpg

So I Disarmed a WH Scout, which triggered an Intimidation check (like Cornugon Smash) and a free attack via Disarming Strike. Then Ekun offed that dude. The other Scout attacked me, which triggered a Perception check, and passing that gave me +2 AC (that you can see in the pic) and +2 AB (including CMB for Disarm) against that dude. 42 Touch is solid and that bottom 10 (plus the +2 from Adaptive Tactics) is from Swordlord. Hard for non-monks to get that high.

Of course the main benefit of Disarm is CC:

Disarmed!.jpg

But he doesn't know he's CC'ed, so it's even worse. For him.

Disarm result.jpg

Wild Hunt don't bring monks, and he gets wasted by the AoOs.

Regular AC solid as it needs to be too.

Swordlord AC.jpg


In other news, Bombs are good.

Power of Bombs.jpg

Cleaning up once things are under control:

Cleaning up.jpg

Decent damage for a DEX-based one-hander.

And that's that for your basic baseline Aldori Swordlord. Even if it's not your thing, I'd encourage you to try a playthrough with a disarming toon, it adds a fun strategic element.

Tommorow the Sword Saint busted version.
 

Nerevar

N'wah
Patron
Repressed Homosexual
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Messages
1,142
Location
Balmora
Make the Codex Great Again! Pathfinder: Wrath
Okay big brain time, I had to put on my hat of mental perfection +8 for this one. How to defeat the captor an almost demi-godlike powerful super mage and his pet demon this will be the most difficult battle yet!

I sent in my two wyverns to tank the mass icy prision and then Jaethal hit him with a sharp piece of metal attached to a long pole.
OnfzkN9.jpg
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
"sent two Wyverns"

piker

RingofLuck.jpg

Yes, that's everyone but the MC dying an inexorable death in their Icy Prison. MC and her Ring of Luck won the fight tho.

Might want to check if there is anything in that Hat about "touch attacks."
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,561
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Ninj is the freebooter right?

No, Harrim. Freebooters are poor at range since range thrives on full attacks and Freebooters Bane is a Move Action (goes well with Standard Actions like Cleave, Charge, and Vital Strike).

SlayerAB.jpg


Harrim can use Combat Style Feats from Freebooter to get TWF to use his Urgrosh or Shield Bash.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom