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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,605
he removes his armor, chugs an invisibility potion and still fails the 2nd athletics check
first check keeps you where you are and also damages you which frustrated him clearly.
2nd check on fail you get to go down but take damage in process.

2nd one is better design imo as first one can result in infinite punishment and i hope they keep this encounter in mind when designing wrath.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
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Aug 23, 2015
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5,965
Pathfinder: Wrath
If housewife blond romance could throw fireballs at will he probably would have been an autoinclude on every playthrough. As now he's just bestest and easiest to use divine caster with high wish & cha, lotsa heals, lotsa nukes, 2 +BAB buttons, extend spell feat for even more lotsa buffs and nukas and skelingtons and you can even throw him in melee if you dip u know what. And his personal quest gives him special stance that maximises all his flame strikes.

He kinda works as Mysthic Theuruge. Might not be the most optimal build but I have fun with him as one, baring fire spells and nuking enemies.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
he removes his armor, chugs an invisibility potion and still fails the 2nd athletics check
first check keeps you where you are and also damages you which frustrated him clearly.
2nd check on fail you get to go down but take damage in process.

2nd one is better design imo as first one can result in infinite punishment and i hope they keep this encounter in mind when designing wrath.

Pal is a STR class. Unless he's getting very unlucky he has no business failing that Athletics check*. By then you've got potions of Heroism, Bull's Strength, whatever. Pal has self-healing so just heal yourself if you fail and try again. The best games have difficult encounters that give one a sense of accomplishment for surmounting them. If that quest is too hard for people what are they even doing?

*- it's not like you've got companions (other than Reg) who have more STR that can be your Athletics experts. It's not like there are a ton of CHR skills, and you're definitely not taking the DEX, INT, or WIS skills over Athletics on a Pal.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
If housewife blond romance could throw fireballs at will he probably would have been an autoinclude on every playthrough. As now he's just bestest and easiest to use divine caster with high wish & cha, lotsa heals, lotsa nukes, 2 +BAB buttons, extend spell feat for even more lotsa buffs and nukas and skelingtons and you can even throw him in melee if you dip u know what. And his personal quest gives him special stance that maximises all his flame strikes.

He kinda works as Mysthic Theuruge. Might not be the most optimal build but I have fun with him as one, baring fire spells and nuking enemies.

There are several fun builds for him, but it's difficult to feel like you're really wrecking with him unless you work really hard at it. There is no u know what dip to fix that. His INT and STR are both awful for Vivi/Sword Saint, and he can't take Monk.
Straight Cleric fighting with Reach/Enlarge supplemented with solid spells from fast progression and Domain abilities that get better with levels ends up being about the best you're going to do.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
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Pathfinder: Wrath
If housewife blond romance could throw fireballs at will he probably would have been an autoinclude on every playthrough. As now he's just bestest and easiest to use divine caster with high wish & cha, lotsa heals, lotsa nukes, 2 +BAB buttons, extend spell feat for even more lotsa buffs and nukas and skelingtons and you can even throw him in melee if you dip u know what. And his personal quest gives him special stance that maximises all his flame strikes.

He kinda works as Mysthic Theuruge. Might not be the most optimal build but I have fun with him as one, baring fire spells and nuking enemies.

There are several fun builds for him, but it's difficult to feel like you're really wrecking with him unless you work really hard at it. There is no u know what dip to fix that. His INT and STR are both awful for Vivi/Sword Saint, and he can't take Monk.
Straight Cleric fighting with Reach/Enlarge supplemented with solid spells from fast progression and Domain abilities that get better with levels ends up being about the best you're going to do.

Yeah. Mystic Theurge also only works because of Empryal Bloodline. Even then you will get locked out of Level 9 Spells. Sorcerer 4/Mystic Theurge 10/ Cleric 6. So your spellcasting level will be 14 Sorcerer and 16 Cleric. Or 16 Sorcerer. Depends on which Class do you want to have him have 8th level spells on.

I guess if you consider itemization and the meta-knowledge that Hat of Mental Perfection exists in this game you can go Wizard on him which allows this build to get 1 Level 9 spells of either Arcane or Divine. I think I would choose Divine just because the fixed spell selection is more flexible than Wizards looking from scrolls. Tristan magic icon (that stuff you use to restore spells usage) also helps that you can cast 2 9 level spells per rest.
 

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,605
its like barbarian rage.. iirc was about 20 rounds. im not sure if he gets it on all outcomes.
maximizes heals and fire based spells.
Desiderius you are not always a paladin though. in that encounter now you can only do athletics, stealth or beat the monsters. furthermore its a solo encounter thus it would have been possible to add gimmicky one off stuff there.
things like
sacrificing camping supplies to lure animals away from exit path.
using a rope to circumvent/reduce 2nd athletics check for scaling down wall

it is only solo quest in game (maybe except first 5 minutes of house ). it could have been different.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
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10,447
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Grand Chien
I got Hambeard working on a new mod for Tristian
  • changes his domains to Fire primary and Glory secondary
  • initial feats changed to Spell Focus Evo, Greater Spell Focus Evo, and Elemental Focus (Fire)
  • stats changed to STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 19, CHA 14
  • skills changed to 3 Per 3 Lore(Religion)
Based off the code from Call of the Wild so it should be absolutely solid
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Most of those bugs are likely balance decisions. Obv Hammerblow and stuff like Endurance not giving Athletics a boost are still ingame.
It's very unlikely that they are balance decisions. If the "sneak attack for each ray" was a balance decision, they wouldn't have tried to fix it. But they did.

The other ones make literally zero sense as "balance decisions", come on. They are obviously the result of poor implementation decisions.

I'm entirely serious. Each one of the cases you mentioned would be far less viable working like PnP. They made some changes for the cRPG format. It doesn't do any good to call them bugs just because that makes you unhappy.

Endurance saying it gives you +2 Athletics while not giving you +2 Athletics is a bug. Letting Octavia's quasi-iterative Rays get sneaks so that she can keep up (barely) with Kanerah (who gets infinite casts!) or her own weapon attacks is just prudent design. She still has a hard time making it off the bench over Jubilost who has an easier time getting higher DCs. Once she hits Surprise Spells she's good but if Fireballs can sneak everyone why shouldn't multiple Rays?
Man, we all love Kingmaker, but your judgment is completely obfuscated by your passion for the game.

I don't call them bugs beause they make me unhappy. That's the exact opposite: i love some of those mistakes (sneak attacks, magic vestment and bites stacking) and I think the game would be worse without them. Nonetheless, saying that most of them are balance decisions is fabulously optimistic on your part.

- Magic Vestment doesn't work as it should;
- you can stack bite attacks from multiple sources and that's not how it works in Pathfinder;
- if you convert one of your spells into Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally, you can't choose to summon more creatures;
- bear's rend ability doesn't work as it should: it activates even if you hit two different enemies with your claw attacks

These are the first five off the top of my head, there are a lot more.

Still, Owlcat did an amazing job fixing the broken mess that Kingmaker was at release, the remaining problems are just minor issues.

Vestment is a close call. People like to wear the fun armors and robes. You'd have to revamp the whole itemization to get some non-magical armor that still was worth wearing. Regular armor is already underpowered vs Bracers and armorless shenanigans. Vestment as working in P:K helps it compete. Likewise it's not as easy as it looks to make bites relevant. Stuff dies (if you're flanking something else is attacking it) or kills you before you get in that sixth or seventh attack or you've got to move (doesn't work with Reach) costing you your full attack for that turn. Motherless costs you a feat and a lot of skill points (that - INT hurts) vs Human. It's useful to have some skills on MC.

Summons are already OP. Bear's Rend ability is the weakest of the Wild Shape abilities, it should work as you describe. Still almost never worth it.

If they weren't design decisions then they would be bugs, but we don't know that and they make sense as design decisions.
Vestment is not a close call. It doesn't work because they decided to assign the bonus to the character instead of the items. It's clear as the sky.

On bites I agree with you, their stacking makes the game more fun and I think thay made the right call not fixing them.

The fact that you say that not letting choose what to summon when casting spontaneously is a balance decision because "summons are already OP" is what convinces me the most that you are defending these mistakes just for the sake of defending Owlcat. It has literally nothing to do with balance reasons, you can't do it only because converting spells to spontaneously cast a summon or a cure spell uses the exact same UI element as choosing which creatures to summon (the bar that pops up when you click the small arrow on top of the spell). I can accept and try to understand your position on the other features, but this is absurd. They were lazy and didn't build that UI element to work correctly in this case, it's so obvious that I can't believe you don't see it.

Rend works like that not only with wild shape, but also with any other instance of the ability in the game.
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,562
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
If housewife blond romance could throw fireballs at will he probably would have been an autoinclude on every playthrough. As now he's just bestest and easiest to use divine caster with high wish & cha, lotsa heals, lotsa nukes, 2 +BAB buttons, extend spell feat for even more lotsa buffs and nukas and skelingtons and you can even throw him in melee if you dip u know what. And his personal quest gives him special stance that maximises all his flame strikes.

Don't forget up to +10 Skills (among other things), which generally lets you autopass all skillchecks (combined with other boosters) without much sweat (even with dumped stats).
 

Nerevar

N'wah
Patron
Repressed Homosexual
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Messages
1,143
Location
Balmora
Make the Codex Great Again! Pathfinder: Wrath
Bite stacking is crazy for extra attacks borderline imba.

Motherless monk is one of the strongest level 1 classes because it has 3 attacks. Having an extra attack as a racial ability is just too good to pass up. I don't even know what the other tiefling bloodlines provide because bite outshines them.

If you couldn't stack bite it would devalue picking motherless immensely (blur is pretty good too).
 

Zurat-Yarkuch

Savant
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
468
Just finished Valerie's first side quest. Fuck that Paladin. I refused to lose the duel to that lawful good sonofabitch and had to switch out equipment and give Valerie all the buffs and Linzi strumming her song just to hit him and the fucker keeps on spamming lay on hands almost infinitely. Seriously, what the fuck? That was even tougher the Craig Linnorm fight for god sake.

Also, is Valerie supposed to be unattractive after getting the scar? I honestly think she looks better, it adds character to her face. Seriously are other guys turned off by stuff like that? Cause I'm not.
 

Sweeper

Arcane
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Messages
3,700
I just noticed PF:KM is sitting at a nice mostly positive 76% on Steam.
The game play in pathfinder is very disappointing, you'll find your self spamming the space bar every 2 or 3 seconds at higher difficulties trying to keep your party alive, even when they should far outclass simple bandits and wolves. rogues are almost a waist of time to play, as AC even at 25+ still feels like a 50/50 to get hit. you'll be spamming potions mid combat like you have an addiction, i swear to god during the first act i was always running out of potions. overall if u want a good combat oriented rpg i'd suggest NWN2 over this in a heart beat.

as for the story, its a big stinky pile of ♥♥♥♥, i love playing lawful evil so i decided to play a lawful evil monk. unfortunately the writers decided unless you're playing chaotic good you will be assaulted with terrible choices nothing close to how u envision your position. all your choices along the evil side are close to psychopathic, want to lay down the law where u judge fit? wrong! you are now a chaotic evil scum bag that wants to see the world burn. they take the most extreme ends of the moral system to where if your chaotic evil, you just want to rip everyone's guts out! not to mention you feel like u stepped into a pathfinder rpg halfway through its story. your "hero" just kinda poofs into existence out of no where. no homeland, no background, just poof. then suddenly you become a king? things just go way too fast.

now onto level design. the level design in pathfinder is boring most of the time, just basic forests and hills. sometimes you enter a cave but there mostly empty. its like when a player brand new to rpg's decides to gm, you walk into a room with a few monsters, you wanna use the room to your advantage, he pulls up the drawing of the room and its just a square box. with a new player that's forgivable, he's new. but with a dev team with payed semi professional level designers, that's not ok. overall i think pathfinder is half baked and needed much more work.

i'd give the game a 5/10.



I want to like this game; it's got a lot of work and care put into it, but it's just not fun. It sticks so strictly close to the pen and paper rule sets that you get all of the worst aspects of that when you're starting out, only there's no DM to try and keep the game going for the players and make it fun. The game is brutally difficult, even on the easiest difficulty settings, because it insists on high DC checks for -everything- even beginning the game.

For example, one of the first quests you can get is to pick some berries for someone. Getting to the berries can be frustrating in itself because of swarm enemies you fight, which are extremely difficult to hit for the incomplete low level party you're likely fighting them with. Then the berries will take you multiple tries to pick, damaging a character each time you fail, because the difficulty check is so high for something so stupidly simple (and the starting barbarian has a +6 to nature lore checks to try and pick them!). You wind up save scumming for every single thing you do, trying and re-trying each minor combat, each trap or lock pick, every time you need to traverse terrain or speak to someone, or any time you try and make progress. It winds up being such a chore to play that it's obvious it's a game made by people who love, but it treats you like garbage for trying to love it back. The worst part about the difficulty is that it's not really -difficult- as much as it is just random; everything in the game is a roll of the dice, and starting out the dice are loaded against you.

Maybe it gets better later. Maybe I'll keep trying to find out. But, as it is, I'd never recommend the game to anyone but the most hardcore metagamer who's min/maxing every party and makes it a point of pride to beat an encounter after the 13th try. For any normal person, just play the Divinity or Path of Exile games instead and save yourself the headache.

If there's one thing I love seeing, it's storyfags and gam iz supar hardz guyz itz brutal zoomers getting filtered the fuck out.
Sign of quality.
Sign of motherfucking incline.
God I love this game.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Just finished Valerie's first side quest. Fuck that Paladin. I refused to lose the duel to that lawful good sonofabitch and had to switch out equipment and give Valerie all the buffs and Linzi strumming her song just to hit him and the fucker keeps on spamming lay on hands almost infinitely. Seriously, what the fuck? That was even tougher the Craig Linnorm fight for god sake.

Also, is Valerie supposed to be unattractive after getting the scar? I honestly think she looks better, it adds character to her face. Seriously are other guys turned off by stuff like that? Cause I'm not.
did they ever bother fixing the bug that let you spam potions in duels?
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
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Joined
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Pathfinder: Wrath
PSA: Call of the Wild now features manual Animal Companion Levelling and Summoner class

Kudos to the guy to keep modding stuffs in even with just dll edits/
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
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Pronouns: rusts/rusty
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
PSA: Call of the Wild now features manual Animal Companion Levelling and Summoner class

Kudos to the guy to keep modding stuffs in even with just dll edits/
The modding community for this game is amazing.

Call of the Wild adds a ton of replay value to a game that, on its own, needs more than a thousand hours to be fully explored. The TB mod adds a game mode beloved by many and shows one of the great features of the system: it works and it's fun in both modes.
Not only that, but modders are always available and ready to offer help on anything mod-related.
 

Zurat-Yarkuch

Savant
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
468
did they ever bother fixing the bug that let you spam potions in duels?

Ever time I tried using a potion to heal myself the guy would hit me, attack of opportunity maybe, and pretty much negate the healing from the potion. Unlike his lay on hands which is a free action.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,965
Pathfinder: Wrath
PSA: Call of the Wild now features manual Animal Companion Levelling and Summoner class

Kudos to the guy to keep modding stuffs in even with just dll edits/
The modding community for this game is amazing.

Call of the Wild adds a ton of replay value to a game that, on its own, needs more than a thousand hours to be fully explored. The TB mod adds a game mode beloved by many and shows one of the great features of the system: it works and it's fun in both modes.
Not only that, but modders are always available and ready to offer help on anything mod-related.

Yeah. The fact that the TB mod exists is amazing. Advanced Martial Arts and EA was also very good for its time. Heck AMA is still relevant even though it is barely updated.

Hopefully martial part of the ruleset will get some love in the future instead of just spellcasters.
 

Pink Eye

Monk
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Space Refrigerator
I'm very into cock and ball torture
Guys, even Jason Bulmahn (the Gigax of Pathfinder) had problem in some encounters. https://youtu.be/TCfFY9JBkLs?t=2092

I had no problem against this Bear using animate dead but as a paladin i belive that the best strategy is drink a potion and run(like he plans to do after being destroyed some times)
Yeah, he got his butt kicked. I would have scouted the area first. See if I could use the environment to my advantage. Maybe hatch up an escape plan, if necessary. I remember when I first tried my luck against it. I was playing on Unfair and it was dealing somewhere around 40-50 damage on each hit.
 

LannTheStupid

Товарищ
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Joined
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Soviet Union
Pathfinder: Wrath
opening up inventory and using every buff known to man or 20-30 alchemist flasks to instagib paladin?
If I'm not mistaken, the inventory works exactly the same in all the fights. In one-on-one duels it might seem egregious, but in general the behaviour is consistent.

So either the whole inventory access in fights should have been redesigned; or inventory access in duels should follow special rules different from other fights; or it is working as intended.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
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10,447
Location
Grand Chien
Guys, even Jason Bulmahn (the Gigax of Pathfinder) had problem in some encounters. https://youtu.be/TCfFY9JBkLs?t=2092

I had no problem against this Bear using animate dead but as a paladin i belive that the best strategy is drink a potion and run(like he plans to do after being destroyed some times)
Yeah, he got his butt kicked. I would have scouted the area first. See if I could use the environment to my advantage. Maybe hatch up an escape plan, if necessary. I remember when I first tried my luck against it. I was playing on Unfair and it was dealing somewhere around 40-50 damage on each hit.
a) there's other ways to get out of there than just fighting all those mobs. b) it was SO obvious that it was a trap.
 

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