Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[NJClaw]

Anyone can give me some pointers for druids? Want to play one for the Varnhold DLC.

Smilodon go brrr

Old argument, but I prefer Leopards - not that far off from Smiley in terms of damage, but also have the very useful trip. Smiley whiffs a lot too, I find.

Not far off? The smilodon has 5 attacks and the leopard 3 with a slightly lower base damage. I wouldn't call "almost double" damage "not far off". The smilodon also has pounce and that means that he is getting those 5 attacks almost every single round, while the leopard has to stick to his single bite while moving. Animal Growth and Legendary Proportions are another big plus for the smilodon: they are amazing spells (+8 Strength, higher damage dice and higher AC, better reach), but they don't work that well with the leopard, because they impose a penalty to Dexterity, so that's another loss in damage on his part. The "smilodon whiffs a lot" doesn't make any sense, they have almost equal to hit bonuses and the smilodon can benefit from Animal Growth Strength increase, while the leopard can't. There is only a small window of time where the leopard should have a slightly higher to hit bonus, after that the smilodon misses more only because he attacks 2x the times a leopard does.

The leopard has the advantage of an higher speed (but animal companions, not wearing armor, already have amazing speeds by themselves), a better maneuverability (huge animals are hard to fit in small doors and corridors) and that very good trip ability, but can't compete with the smilodon in terms of damage.

Actually the situation is a little less binary than you make it out to be. It's true that the Leopard suffers from less damage and less APR, no doubt it has way less offensive power than the Smilodon at all stages of the game.

However, it is significantly more survivable for the first 4-5 levels or so, during which time it will also hit more reliably. During this time, it makes for a significantly better pet from a defensive perspective, and its offensive power is boosted by Trip and better AB - that doesn't make it better or equal to the Smilodon (not even close) but it's not far off. This isn't an insignificant amount of game time, and can really helps during those first few hours of play.

Later, the Leopard still gets Power Attack and its STR isn't as far behind the Smilodon's as you might think, thus it can still benefit from Animal Growth and Legendary Proportions. Of course it will never match the Smilodon's offensive power, and falls heavily behind once you reach level 12+. But that's a ways in to the game, so for a decent portion it makes for a fairly good pet.

Added to this, it's very easily to simply respec into the Smilodon once you hit level 8 or so, so there's no harm in having a bit of fun with the Leopard. Ultimately the Smilodon IS better, but the Leopard's not bad early on.

I'm not saying that the leopard is completely worthless when compared to the smilodon, I was just answering to this statement:

Leopards - not that far off from Smiley in terms of damage

And that's simply not true, since the smilodon has almost 2x the damage potential of a leopard.

 

[Darko]

Pink Eye Regarding chokepoints how do you deal with monsters walking through your tank to destroy those behind?

Spoiler

All the starting companions being either melee or useless makes this part extra hard.

 

[Yosharian]

Pink Eye Regarding chokepoints how do you deal with monsters walking through your tank to destroy those behind?



All the starting companions being either melee or useless makes this part extra hard.

If you have at least two decent tanks then they should not ignore them, usually. There are sometimes enemies that completely ignore threat, those must be dealt with using crowd control like Web or whatever.

One tank alone is not good enough, and anyone within melee range can be targeted by an enemy.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Really ought to finish my Varnhold's run so I can what the fuss with Kingdom management is.

 

[Xamenos]

Pink Eye Regarding chokepoints how do you deal with monsters walking through your tank to destroy those behind?

Spoiler

All the starting companions being either melee or useless makes this part extra hard.

I wouldn't go as far as to say you need two tanks, but a second melee character is highly recommended, for the teamwork feats if nothing else. Valerie is a great tank, but she can't hold the line by herself.

 

[Darko]

Of course, that's what summons are for. But you can't depend on them in Old Sycamore, and it's a problem if you want to minimize number of reloads.

 

[Pink Eye]

Pink Eye Regarding chokepoints how do you deal with monsters walking through your tank to destroy those behind?

Spoiler

All the starting companions being either melee or useless makes this part extra hard.

Need two people to effectively hold the line, need a tight area to funnel enemies through. You're fighting out in the open with no means to funnel enemies through one by one. If enemies can't hit your tank, they will ignore them and rush your back line.

 

[Pink Eye]

I ended up just going back to Oleg's OIutpost after saving Harrim. Ideally I wanted to path towards harrim, kill purple gnome, then leave to Oleg. All in one run with zero reloads, oh well.

 

[Pink Eye]

Darko If you don't have another person to hold the line with Valerie, make one. I turned Linzi into an Aldori Defender.

 

[Darko]

The problem is that, in my experience, tank can't reliably hold a chokepoint because monsters will literally walk through them. In above screenshot, the spider is on top of Valerie and is proceeding to walk towards back line. It doesn't try to go around her, it goes through her. That's kind of bullshit.

Otherwise two characters in melee are a requirement, of course.

 

[Pink Eye]

>it goes through her
Wait, what. LOL! Your game is bugged!

 

[Darko]

Happens occasionally but very annoying when it does. Don't tell me you never noticed it.

 

[Pink Eye]

I actually just watched my video, and it happened with Linzi. Wolf ignored Linzi and went straight for the monk.

Spoiler

I'm sometimes too focused to notice it.

 

[Pink Eye]

Also this is one of the reasons I hate Old Sycamore:

Spoiler

You can't tell what's a wall and what isn't.

 

[Desiderius]

Anyone can give me some pointers for druids? Want to play one for the Varnhold DLC.

Smilodon go brrr

Old argument, but I prefer Leopards - not that far off from Smiley in terms of damage, but also have the very useful trip. Smiley whiffs a lot too, I find.

All Smilodon attax are at full BAB. If they're whiffing, you're sucking.

 

[Desiderius]

Blight Druid is complete trash for obvious reasons, but fun for role-playing I guess.

I wouldn't go that far, if you're playing a melee druid the innate debuff works on most things and wreaks havok on the late-game enemies, and you get immunity to a nasty spell that late-game enemies love to throw at you. The shadow domain comes with a lot of nice spells too, but the power's level progression is broken for druid. Also, Creeping Doom for druids in general is an absolute beast of a spell not shared by any other class and few enemies (including, once again, late game) aren't vulnerable to it.

If you have the Call of the Wild mod, Druids gain a huge amount of more (PnP appropriate) spells and feats that make them even better (Strong Jaw, Resinous Skin, Fluid Form, Planar Wild Shape, Weapon Shift, a bunch of new forms, etc). It also makes baseline companions weaker, but opens up their inventory and allows you to choose their feats and skill points, and many of the new spells (you can now cast personal ones on them via share spell) make up for it as well. Plus running around literally eating enemies as a giant venus flytrap was just as fun as it sounds.

The two favorite classes of Steam Unfair dude Dixon Sider were Arcane Bomber and Blight Druid.

Because of pathing and the need to buff their equipment pets are a resource with rapidly diminishing returns. To say Blight sux because no pet is thinking in a solo vacuum that misses group dynamics.

 

[Desiderius]

Yosh is lost in theoryland as usual. Several inaccuracies that anyone who has actually tested would know.

Leopard damage is nowhere near Smilo. I play Leopards now to gimp myself.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Because of pathing and the need to buff their equipment pets are a resource with rapidly diminishing returns. To say Blight sux because no pet is thinking in a solo vacuum that misses group dynamics.

But it really isn't. I guess it might be if you judge the game only on unfair, but really, in unfair a lot of stuffs simply doesn't work making different game altogether as the enemies are way overbuffed. In normal game up to Hard, there is no reason not to take Animal Companion, even "weak" one like the Mamoth or Spider. You can always sicc them to enemies' backline or just let them come in later after the rest of your melee is set up to setup flank bonuses and slight DPS boost. They might really become not that good on House but by that point your normal Druid would function as well as Blight Druid anyway so once again there is no way Blight is on par or better than any normal Druid unless you are really really lacking in micro skills.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Happens occasionally but very annoying when it does. Don't tell me you never noticed it.

I can't say I that I have. You may be contending with more bugs than just those spiders. I haven't had any issues with collision.

 

[Desiderius]

Because of pathing and the need to buff their equipment pets are a resource with rapidly diminishing returns. To say Blight sux because no pet is thinking in a solo vacuum that misses group dynamics.

But it really isn't. I guess it might be if you judge the game only on unfair, but really, in unfair a lot of stuffs simply doesn't work making different game altogether as the enemies are way overbuffed. In normal game up to Hard, there is no reason not to take Animal Companion, even "weak" one like the Mamoth or Spider. You can always sicc them to enemies' backline or just let them come in later after the rest of your melee is set up to setup flank bonuses and slight DPS boost. They might really become not that good on House but by that point your normal Druid would function as well as Blight Druid anyway so once again there is no way Blight is on par or better than any normal Druid unless you are really really lacking in micro skills.

No, the reason is because of pathing they often never even make it to the fight and because there is always an opportunity cost to taking the pet.

 

[Desiderius]

Here's what you should be doing with Smilodon on lvl 5 Unfair:

Leopard cannot do dis.

 

[Desiderius]

All the starting companions being either melee or useless makes this part extra hard.

There are no useless companions, just ones whose use you have yet to discover.

Splashing Ecclesitheurge on Linzi is some intriguing action economy, but probably more trouble than it's worth. Opportunity cost is at it's highest on Bard since you've got slow spell progression to begin with.

 

[Darko]

There are no useless companions, just ones whose use you have yet to discover.

Splashing Ecclesitheurge on Linzi is some intriguing action economy, but probably more trouble than it's worth. Opportunity cost is at it's highest on Bard since you've got slow spell progression to begin with.

Was just an experiment, at the time I was desperate for anything that could increase Valerie's AC.

Knowing how much you love bards it's pointless to argue but I like companions who can contribute utility AND damage. Linzi with crossbow will not amount to much, and melee is already overcrowded. Swapping her for Jub or Ekun was a huge improvement.
Amiri and archers get lethal stance and bracers respectively to replace her AB song. Professor's hat and spectacles/gloves from Hassuf replace skill song. Conus-shaped dwarf helm, Maegar's wand and Kimo's tier5 spear cover Good hope.

Calling her useless might have been harsh but there is certainly opportunity cost to bringing her along. Early game is all about unloading enough damage before all enemies lose interest in tank.

Edit: the one thing I do miss is dirge, but by level 8 the game is already significantly easier (playing on unfair).

 

[Desiderius]

Pink Eye Regarding chokepoints how do you deal with monsters walking through your tank to destroy those behind?

Spoiler

All the starting companions being either melee or useless makes this part extra hard.

There are no useless companions, just ones whose use you have yet to discover.

Splashing Ecclesitheurge on Linzi is some intriguing action economy, but probably more trouble than it's worth. Opportunity cost is at it's highest on Bard since you've got slow spell progression to begin with.

Was just an experiment, at the time I was desperate for anything that could increase Valerie's AC.

Knowing how much you love bards it's pointless to argue but I like companions who can contribute utility AND damage. Linzi with crossbow will not amount to much, and melee is already overcrowded. Swapping her for Jub or Ekun was a huge improvement.
Amiri and archers get lethal stance and bracers respectively to replace her AB song. Professor's hat and spectacles/gloves from Hassuf replace skill song. Conus-shaped dwarf helm, Maegar's wand and Kimo's tier5 spear cover Good hope.

Calling her useless might have been harsh but there is certainly opportunity cost to bringing her along. Early game is all about unloading enough damage before all enemies lose interest in tank.

Edit: the one thing I do miss is dirge, but by level 8 the game is already significantly easier (playing on unfair).

Those are all interesting points. I used to always keep her in melee where she can use Cautious Fighter and Mirror Image to good effect while triggering crits with Outflank and Moskoni’s Rapier. Puts her in good position for cone spells as well.

Had decent luck last full playthrough keeping her at range with Deadly Aim and Harrim’s Aura upping damage.

Early game you can get Flaming xbow from Oleg then Shock Jav +2 from Depths lvl 3 that do pretty good work since you’re casting in the hard fights anyway.

Strategic Demoralize is similar to Blessing in effect (though of course Spiders are immune) early. Glitterdust is nice on those Spiders and there’s no real time limit on Ch. 1 if you don’t care about Lord Protector.

 

[Pink Eye]

>but by level 8 the game is already significantly easier
Yeah, that's why I enjoy low level unfair. Low level forces you to think and play smart. You also get punished for stupid mistakes you could have prevented.