Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Mr. Magniloquent]

You can go STR or DEX. The problem with Monk splash on Saint is that you're neither CHR or WIS based. It's just bad and people fell for the meme.

Respectfully disagree. Stat bloat is very real in PFKM. Attaining >+6 across the board is very easy to accomplish. Getting +9 in two primary stats in addition is readily done too. Consider my Spawn Slayer 15/Paladin 2/Scaled Fist 2. I did not reach Level 20. I gained +10 AC, +10 to all saves, Evasion, and Crane Style. I lost 1 BAB, +3 attack and damage, 1d6 sneak, Slayer's Advance (lol). Of that +3 lost, +2 of it wouldn't have been enjoyed until after HatEoT. The feat tradeoffs are equivalent, because the bonus feats from Scaled Fist are feats I would have selected with Slayer Talents anyway. All those AC gains are also to Touch AC, which comes in very valuable late game. I also traded maybe 2 points of Reflex for triple that in Will. I'll take that deal. I got to enjoy those benefits as they scaled up throughout most of the game. That's a pretty significant. None of my other stats suffered, and were between +6-8 everywhere else.

I made a gimmick build to capitalize on all of the stat bloat. Sword Saint 9/Duelist 7/Paladin 2/Scaled Fist 2. With all of the items in this game, the loss of a couple spells and a capstone ability I would never enjoy wasn't an issue. It's the archetype abilities of the SS that make it powerful. The spells are secondary as with any Gish. Nine (9) levels of SS give you everything important from the class. Beyond that it's 1 Mirror Image and a few "win more" features. The build never suffered and was matured by character level 12. Stat bloat is a real thing in KM, and outside of full-casters there are some instances where a dip can be extremely powerful. They are few, and I agree that the overwhelming amount of characters will not benefit. That's different from saying they don't exist though.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes, stat bloat is why you don’t need a purely defensive splash that adds nothing but, wait for it, stats.

I give up.

 

[Desiderius]

As should become clear if one attempts to 'prove' such a thing, whether or not a Monk dip is a good investment or not depends upon a variety of factors, not least of which is the character the dip is being taken on; what role that character plays, and what other classes the character is taking, amongst other things.

Yeah, no shit. That's exactly what we've been saying and why always pushing for dips is terrible, terrible advice for a newbie. A newbie by definition CANNOT judge this kind of stuff. And those shilling dips never say "Numbers don't say everything, dips can be a good investment depending on your character, his class, your party, and the level we're talking about". No, you always say shit like "A monk dex tank is always superior to armor tanking, you'll get wrecked if you try" and "Bigger numbers always better, take the splash even if you don't understand what you're losing".

Where do you find these retards?

Dipping is pretty discouraged in the PF system, it's rarely worth it, but these monk dips are a counterexample. Desiderius has some insightful posts on this.

On both sides lol. I’ve gotten to the point where I cast my buffs and use my abilities but mostly I’m focused on offense. Wouldn’t splash Monk for 1,000 AC.

Perhaps as a result after 3,000 hrs I think discovered my favorite spell. Grace.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Yes, stat bloat is why you don’t need a purely defensive splash that adds nothing but, wait for it, stats.

I give up.

My good man, you're not being honest here. I'm not talking about an DD nonsense. What I demonstrated is evident. It's one of the few splashes that make sense. I know you're equating those benefits to excess, but they basically eliminate any weaknesses, and take an OK character and make them impervious. The offense loss is miniscule comparatively. They're achievable early and only sacrifice things that they player won't enjoy until HatEoT or later.

 

[Desiderius]

My whole point is that you pay the price every level and you’re still stuck on hurr, durr, all I lose is capstone. No, you lose whatever you would have had at level x where x is the level you blew for the Monk Splash and every level thereafter where instead you’re stuck with the level before.

You’re underleveling yourself for something you already have in spades. And you don’t even get that much of it compared to a class that wants CHR or WIS. And if you’re blowing your best equipment trying to get an off stat on your SS to give you even more AC you don’t need you’ve gone completely off the rails.

 

[Sweeper]

You’re underleveling yourself for something you already have in spades

You can always leave the monk dip until you get mirror image. Game's piss easy even on hard by that point.

 

[Jackpot]

The Worldwound has a strange effect on the local wildlife...

Spoiler

I'm not the only one getting these weird occasional model freakouts, am I?

 

[NJClaw]

people fall for it cos you drown in + stat in kingmaker, makes them think its a good investment

Prove, mathematically, that it's a bad investment.

Prove, mathematically, that it’s a good investment.

Math does not exist

 

[Desiderius]

You’re underleveling yourself for something you already have in spades

You can always leave the monk dip until you get mirror image. Game's piss easy even on hard by that point.

Are your brains just too small to comprehend the possibility of more than one ability? Initiative is the most powerful ability in the game, especially when you lack Uncanny Dodge. How are you going to use all this wonderful Dodge AC you’re fucking yourself over for if you’re flat-footed?

Do I really have to load up the game and go level by level explaining what you gain with each level in the most ridiculous class in the game because no one can comprehend the possibility of two abilities being good at the same time?

Did you grow up on games where most abilities are shit so now you just assume they are without even trying them?

Completely at a loss.

 

[Sweeper]

Do I really have to load up the game and go level by level explaining what you gain with each level in the most ridiculous class in the game because no one can comprehend the possibility of two abilities being good at the same time?

Would you? Thanks bro.
Oh and you haven't heard the best part, I dipped in Monk AND Vivi before level 6.
:D

 

[The_Mask]

I mean, if you *are* going to "dip", then it might as well be the levels you gain real fast at the beginning of the game, because if you're going to that any time after, it's going to get real tedious real fast.

No one can really tell you what to do. If that makes you happy, by all means...

 

[Desiderius]

If you haven’t tried the alternative, it could be making you (relatively) miserable and you’d never be the wiser. Now there are people who enjoy clearing Diablo Hell with a butter knife, but that’s not what people here are trying to do. They think they’re making their characters better.

My guess is that they don’t know how initiative and flat-footed work so are getting ganked because flat-footed so try to flight defensively and then can’t hit anything and are still getting ganked because if you lose initiative your fighting defensively doesn’t turn on either. Then splash Monk in a desperate attempt to ameliorate the penalty for fighting defensively etc...

When they’d have been far happier to understand how initiative works in the first place and not massively hose themselves with Fighting Defensively penalties and underleveling themselves.

 

[Desiderius]

People dip for the stuff Sword Saint already has if you just stick it out (super high initiative is effectively Uncanny Dodge).

 

[Sweeper]

I mean, if you *are* going to "dip", then it might as well be the levels you gain real fast at the beginning of the game, because if you're going to that any time after, it's going to get real tedious real fast.

No one can really tell you what to do. If that makes you happy, by all means...

This guy gets it.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Math does not exist

Math exists, and it is racist.

Do I really have to load up the game and go level by level explaining what you gain with each level in the most ridiculous class in the game because no one can comprehend the possibility of two abilities being good at the same time?

That would definitely be educational. Also, it would demonstrate that there is still small chance left for the US.

 

[KateMicucci]

I made my magi. The character creation is what I feared: lots of front-loaded options that I don't know what they do.

I started looking at a build guides but decided it was gay. Took 17 str 14 dex 14 con 16 int 10 wis 8 cha. Dodge and Toughness for feats. Toughness is probably suboptimal but more hp sounded comfy.

Playing on Challenging difficulty. Doesn't seem hard so far. MC got knocked out at the trading post entrance but that could be from bad rolls at level 1.

Levelled val with shield +1, linz with canny observer and amri with beast totem.

Hopefully I haven't "ruined" my char already.

 

[Desiderius]

I mean, if you *are* going to "dip", then it might as well be the levels you gain real fast at the beginning of the game, because if you're going to that any time after, it's going to get real tedious real fast.

No one can really tell you what to do. If that makes you happy, by all means...

This guy gets it.

Yes, but what he gets is wrong. The tedium is because of the dip. You're playing the whole game underleveled.

 

[Desiderius]

Had forgotten how ridiculous this class is. When Lann says doesn't the rest suck other than ability x I'm like what planet are you living on? I want it all and can only get half at most. Unlike Paladin Magus has to use up Arcana to give their Weapon Enchancement more options so you're starving for Arcana to pick up all the good stuff.

First off what splash gets you:

Protection against flat-footed (poor play). Since you're unarmored as a Saint you are relying a good bit on DEX/Dodge AC even if you're STR-based, so you need to make sure you're not getting caught flatfooted. One way to do that is to stay single-classed and pick up the Saint abilities at level 7 and 19 that help you win all initiative rolls. Another way is paying attention to tactics in combat. Another way is to find some AC that doesn't care about flat-footed, and you can get a limited amount from Monk. By the time you can get a decent amount here without messing up your MC/party you no longer need it since you're seldom flat-footed any more.

Likewise this looks like a godsend for those locked into fighting defensively but nothing is making you fight defensively in the first place.

Any questions on any of this?

Probably the best level in the game. If you're splashing before this you're making yourself worse. This is what the class does and it does it better than anyone else.

Ok, so just splash after level four. This is level five. Not close.

This is the first weakish level but obviously Concentration is particularly helpful for this particular class. Reg comes with +4 Concentration and the difference is noticable. Again though if you splash here then you don't get the massive level nine until an entire level later, and this is where leveling slows down. All your class levels are delayed for the rest of the game.

Lann was asking about this list. How is this just not wall to wall goodness? I always want to get Wand Mastery to get some use out of all the useless Wands you find (plus they added a Vendor for Touch Wands) but there's always something better I want more.

Enduring is the must have as again it gives you the functionality that Paladin already has.

Level five spells (like Alchemist) are really weak but then Six has a ton of great stuff. Love how these Mass buffs free up so many equipment slots for more interesting effects. Likewise level ten seems a little weak but Dimension Door works so well with Spellstrike since it sets you up for a Full Attack at the exact location of your choice.

 

[Desiderius]

That would definitely be educational. Also, it would demonstrate that there is still small chance left for the US.

Well I wouldn't go that far.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Magus as a mass buffer is a nice idea. Did not think about it myself, because there is plenty of stat increasing gear in the game. But yes, some head and belt slots have better applications.

 

[Desiderius]

Don’t sleep on Bear’s Endurance, Mass to pad out the HP and Fort Saves late. I always keep it up in VTomb if it’s available. Good vs Soul Eaters along with Baked Spider Legs.

 

[Desiderius]

INT to damage vs flat-footed is like Weapon Specialization x 7 since you’ve got enough feats to easily get to Shatter Defenses (and Cornugan STR-based).

 

[LannTheStupid]

Interesting. After Pillars-I I used to start fights by ranged attacks and wait until the enemies rush my frontline, so the initiative is irrelevant in most cases. Relying on mostly winning the initiative is a different approach.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Interesting. After Pillars-I I used to start fights by ranged attacks and wait until the enemies rush my frontline, so the initiative is irrelevant in most cases. Relying on mostly winning the initiative is a different approach.

"He was no defensive fighter; even in the teeth of overwhelming odds he always carried the war to the enemy."

 

[Sweeper]

Can you do it without images pls?