Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Xamenos]

The question was where it makes the base class better. In the case of scion you lose one caster level to gain 2 Natural AC + 4 str unnamed bonus.

You lose much more than just a single caster level. There was a whole conversation about the exact same thing just a couple weeks ago.

Hell, just losing a single caster level = 1 level behind on spells and spellslots, 1 level behind on your spells' saving DC or if damage is based on caster level, etc.

Utterly retarded opinion. If you are using a magus spell with dc in mind you don't understand dnd.

We already knew it, but good to have confirmation that reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

If you are casting any non buff spell outside touch for spellblade you are equally stupid.

 

[Yosharian]

Hell, just losing a single caster level = 1 level behind on spells and spellslots, 1 level behind on your spells' saving DC or if damage is based on caster level, etc.

For many builds, none of these things matter.

 

[Desiderius]

Depending on party composition yeah you chip in with some AoE CC/nuke cones (Reg does come with that extra lightning damage) but yeah it’s everything else you’re ignoring for some reason you refuse to elucidate that ultimately matters more.

 

[Nano]

I honestly don't understand people who treat Gishes solely as touch-spell casting and self-buffing bots. You're in melee, blast enemies in the face with a Cone of Cold! Add some flair to it.

 

[Desiderius]

Yes, Thun, we know you’re retarded. But retarded just means slow, not at a dead stop. You’ll get there. Don’t despair.

Here, pull up Reg, go to the Character tab and choose the Class subtab. There’s a whole map of wonderful and interesting abilities you’ve been missing all this time.

Enjoy. You can thank us later.

 

[Mangoose]

Hell, just losing a single caster level = 1 level behind on spells and spellslots, 1 level behind on your spells' saving DC or if damage is based on caster level, etc.

For many builds, none of these things matter.

I mean on a partial caster.

The question was where it makes the base class better. In the case of scion you lose one caster level to gain 2 Natural AC + 4 str unnamed bonus.

You lose much more than just a single caster level. There was a whole conversation about the exact same thing just a couple weeks ago.

Hell, just losing a single caster level = 1 level behind on spells and spellslots, 1 level behind on your spells' saving DC or if damage is based on caster level, etc.

Utterly retarded opinion. If you are using a magus spell with dc in mind you don't understand dnd.

That's because this is Pathfinder, and there is no D&D class that lets you attack and cast a spell in the same round. That is, you can cast a spell at a group far away and then melee the guy next to you? I'm not talking about touch attacks. I'm talking about Spell Combat. Two different things, though you can add them together.

It seems like you're describing the Duskblade, which is where Magus came from, copying the Spellstrike. Not spell combat though.

Secondly, if a spell doesn't have a saving throw, then it probably has damage based on caster level.

I’ve posted pics. You’re not getting there with your first level spells against the the saves and spell resistances on higher difficulties.

CMs are good because they don’t care about AC, SR, or Saves which are the main tools the designers use to up the challenge. Disarm is the most powerful, Dirty Trick more reliable (but watch out for Blindfight and True Seeing, especially in Wrath), Bull Rush the most reliable. Dirty Trick is good if you’re having trouble hitting something usually, likewise with Trip for melee.

I didn't mean they didn't work, I meant that the non-spellcasting classes are kinda boring because they don't have more. It's just more fun having options to play with. I'm probably spoiled because of the 6-level casters.

 

[Mangoose]

I honestly don't understand people who treat Gishes solely as touch-spell casting and self-buffing bots. You're in melee, blast enemies in the face with a Cone of Cold! Add some flair to it.

Because they don't understand Spell Combat and Spellstrike are two separate new mechanics.

 

[Desiderius]

I meant that the non-spellcasting classes are kinda boring because they don't have more.

They do. You're just not taking full advantage. No dishonor there - most aren't. Base Fighter has an entire world of options, especially in CotW, and is the most versatile and resilient class in the game.

Dragonkind is just one of those spells that looks amazing on paper but when you try it out its just impractical. Spellcasters have better things to do at that level and martials have better options, generally.

You can focus on AoE and Buffs and then against a high SR boss go Dragonform + Transformation and just attack instead of worrying about Spell Pen. That way you're not saving spells you never end up using. Just let loose then go Dragon when you run out.

 

[Xamenos]

No dishonor there - most aren't.

 

[Parabalus]

DD for Reg is worth it because it gives +2 for the punishing Kingdom Management rolls, even though it hurts his combat effectiveness.

 

[Mangoose]

I meant that the non-spellcasting classes are kinda boring because they don't have more.

They do. You're just not taking full advantage. No dishonor there - most aren't. Base Fighter has an entire world of options, especially in CotW, and is the most versatile and resilient class in the game.

Fighters aren't any better or worse at maneuvers than anybody else. Advanced Weapon/Armor Training is what Base Fighter gives you... But you can get that from the Arsenal Chaplain. Unless you're talking about Lore Warden, which does give you +2 CMB every few levels lol. But you only need 3 levels of Lore Warden for Combat Expertise, or 1 level of Kinetic Knight. Even then, there's feat starvation. My favorite tripper is an animal companion because you can grab one that gets a free trip roll with a regular attack, a bit of action economy.

Edit: FFS I realized how dumb I was that I was carrying around a Daze Wand yesterday. ;_;

Oh I think I know why. I like debuff spells, and since there are so many hybrid characters they call can, and it's a lot nicer getting multiple enemies debuffed. Of course you want the non-save or half-save spells. So, different method on my end. I suppose I'll be massively grabbing feats like Spell Penetration and Spell Focus and Metamagic stuff. Okay Okay i have ADD lol

 

[Mangoose]

Lol dude, Kinetic Knight with Cold/Fire = Burn 0 Kinetic Blade that hits touch.

Thus... 1 level of KK is a nice dip for a Sneak Attacker haha. I'm dualwielding a fire kinetic blade with a dagger with Noknok right now.

Edit: Delterius Oh shit, you forgot the one other CMB-ish tactic: Intimidate. Power Attack -> Cornugon Smash. I actually think that's Which I was actually doing with NokNok earlier because I slipped 2 points into Slayer so I can get Power Attack even though with 8 str.

Oh shit. I need a Dazzling Display build. The one thing annoying is just lack of AOE options with the Feats. It's not the Fighter that's the problem, it's that other classes/archetypes have gotten personal abilities but Feats.. Only some of them are optimal.. Obviously, anything to do with Initiative. But Cleave is ehhh and worse for Whirlwind. And no multi-attacker CMB. (Though maybe with some of the monk styles you can trip on AoO or on them missing you. Crane, maybe?)

 

[Delterius]

Edit: Delterius Oh shit, you forgot the one other CMB-ish tactic: Intimidate. Power Attack -> Cornugon Smash. Which I was actually doing with NokNok earlier because I slipped 2 points into Slayer so I can get Power Attack even though with 8 str.

wrong erius bro

 

[Mangoose]

I wonder, are you guys maxing Perception and Knowledge? Usually a character will have a weak save (Or, just look at their Dex/Con/Wis and make an educated guess). Of course, that means you need to select a good variety of spells that hit different saves. But it doesn't have to be lumped into one character (actually, probably not a good idea to lump anything into one character)

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Mangoose I actually had to opposite opinion of casters & warriors in PFKM. My warriors basically did everything. CMB were easy to land. Anything that got a prone/shaken/blind status effect had about 2 rounds to make peace with their god anyway. Disarm wasn't necessary, but could be fun for lols. Outside of the long duration low level divine buffs, my casters were mostly along for the ride as insurance. Outside of an ambush or major plot battle, they didn't see much action. I got much better use of my quasi-casters like Alchemist and Kineticist.

 

[Mangoose]

Mangoose I actually had to opposite opinion of casters & warriors in PFKM. My warriors basically did everything. CMB were easy to land. Anything that got a prone/shaken/blind status effect had about 2 rounds to make peace with their god anyway. Disarm wasn't necessary, but could be fun for lols. Outside of the long duration low level divine buffs, my casters were mostly along for the ride as insurance. Outside of an ambush or major plot battle, they didn't see much action. I got much better use of my quasi-casters like Alchemist and Kineticist.

It seems like many strategies (THAT ARE SMART) work. Which is fine. I guess I just don't like buffing, so I use my spellcasters to battle control or AOE. But you can battlefield control with a reach weapon and stuff. Many options indeed.

Edit: I made a Hexcrafter Magus actually. I can spam Slumber (Hex) at everybody (If it fails then I simply can't use it again on the same enemy). Thus. As a Magus, using Spell Combat, I Slumber some enemy who's attacking my friend 20 feet away, then I melee the fucker next to me. Or.. I suppose if you charged up your weapon the previous turn (or you missed), you could spellstrike. The charges in the touch spells stay on the weapon unless you smack them. In fact, this is why you when want to grab a Touch spell that has multiple charges when you get iteratives.

 

[Xamenos]

I wonder, are you guys maxing Perception and Knowledge? Usually a character will have a weak save (Or, just look at their Dex/Con/Wis and make an educated guess). Of course, that means you need to select a good variety of spells that hit different saves. But it doesn't have to be lumped into one character (actually, probably not a good idea to lump anything into one character)

Your party needs to have every single skill maxed on someone. And since perception is so important, anyone with spare skillpoints should also max it.

edit:

I guess I just don't like buffing

This might not be the game for you.

 

[Mangoose]

I wonder, are you guys maxing Perception and Knowledge? Usually a character will have a weak save (Or, just look at their Dex/Con/Wis and make an educated guess). Of course, that means you need to select a good variety of spells that hit different saves. But it doesn't have to be lumped into one character (actually, probably not a good idea to lump anything into one character)

Your party needs to have every single skill maxed on someone. And since perception is so important, anyone with spare skillpoints should also max it.

Good good. I am actually even more militant. If they don't have Perception as a class skill, then Seeker Trait hah.

edit:

I guess I just don't like buffing

This might not be the game for you.[/QUOTE]Not at all. I've known D&D 3e before I even played Baldur's Gate lol. For example, I literally just crowd controlled using my Battle Oracle. Wall of Fire. Then smacksmacksmack.

It's D&D. There are a million ways to do things. Except healing. You don't heal during combat.

Oh wait, if you're talking about pre-buffing, different story. Agreed. I meant actively.

Or set up reach AoO fighter in the front. (Actually, Reach Cleric is a very useful build)

 

[Parabalus]

I guess I just don't like buffing

This might not be the game for you.

Can just play on Core or Normal, lessens the need for buff stacking.

 

[Mangoose]

I guess I just don't like buffing

This might not be the game for you.

Can just play on Core or Normal, lessens the need for buff stacking.

I play with as close to PNP core as possible. No more, no less. To be honest, "difficulty" doesn't work like that when playing PNP. What you do is increase the CRs of the enemies in various encounters. Remember, Pathfinder and D&D rely on DMs to design things on the fly.

AI mods I'm fine with. Changes in numbers... not so much, because you would need to tweak every single encounter. Different positioning, different numbers, different classes.

 

[LannTheStupid]

A pointless comment about Last Azlanti being mandatory for all "as close to PNP as possible".

 

[Delterius]

only play on normal for the Intended® design

 

[Mangoose]

A pointless comment about Last Azlanti being mandatory for all "as close to PNP as possible".

Yeah.. That's another gray area I was thinking about because you don't go through so many encounters in a session, so should have enough Vancian spells for the day. Different on computer games where there are lot more encounters. Not that I have an answer. I feel like there might be more ideas than resting all the place like in other games. Probably something some game designer gotta think about.

 

[Desiderius]

The numbers are what they are because your party is 3/2 the size of PnP. Perfectly well. Buff and burn are not either/or. Both are necessary for minimal reloads (I.e. fun).