Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

Holic is the master. If he designed it there’s a way to make it work.

Ranged (all other) Kinnies use Autocast for Gathering since that uses up your Move Action and everything else you do is a Standard Action.

Since KKnights need the Move Action to, you know, move* and can also use Full Attacks since they alone get iteratives that frees up the Autocast.

* - probably main reason the Blade is free since otherwise the class would never work at low levels.

 

[Xamenos]

Ranged (all other) Kinnies use Autocast for Gathering since that uses up your Move Action and everything else you do is a Standard Action.

Gather is a toggle, ranged kineticists put the blast they want to spam on autocast.

 

[Desiderius]

I don’t put attacks on auto for anyone. Gather functions like an Autocast since it’s a Move Action that Triggers each turn. True that it does leave Autocast free which is important.

Anything that uses your Move Action (like Spell Combat or Cackle) you need to be careful with (turning on Auto) since turns where you move can end up being turns where you do nothing else.

This is why I like using Charge to move Reg. KKnight with no Gather and Whip (Free Action) plays a lot smoother.

 

[Desiderius]

Here you go Fronder level 10 Aldori Defender 6/Aldori Swordlord 4. No need for Monk or Saint or anything.

Second pic is no Flanking. Notice Combat Expertise Malus has been neutralized. Other two will be too by level 20. Fighter is such a great class.

 

[Desiderius]

To illustrate how the not obsessing about AC approach works, consider this boss fight. Pay attention to how often player AC matters.

M. AQVILA's Sorc gets the guy Blinded but notice how many attacks the boss got in before the Blind. That's no coincidence. Hunter class ability Animal Focus https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/Hunter/#Animal_Focus_Su gives the pet enough Stealth to creep up undetected. Then the Charge ability give him the first attack. And the second, and...

Not one attack for the boss at all. Could have had zero AC wouldn't have mattered. Now go back and look at the initiative rolls - particularly the boss and the finisher.

Way back at level 6 was already investing in just this sort of situation. Getting the boss blind helped, but knowing that he was vulnerable to Blind and being ready to take advantage of it took interesting work.

I'm posting these to highlight both CotW and the Depths DLC but also to illustrate how many tools are available to dominate/enjoy the game without worrying about OP builds and splashes (all six of these characters are single class - Aldori Swordlord is just alternative progression for Aldori Defender) and the like and just how much tactical depth there is to enjoy for it's own sake..

 

[Fronder]

I'm sorry, Desiderius, but you post so much, that I've lost the thread of what exactly you are trying to say/prove

1. In no way I'm trying to argue that there is just one best way to play the game, or the best class, or the best party composition. Everyone has it's own style of playing RPGs. I myself prefer melee-oriented parties with little or no offensive magic and minimum rests. And it reflects on my choice of classes.

2. That said, in the main campaign you can buy the Helm of the Battlefield Clarity from Hassuf, that more or less negates the malus from Combat Experties (and gives +2 Will). What else substantional bonuses the Swordlord gives you, I'm not sure. I think, just going for Steel Net would have given you the same bonuses without the need to make a Perception check.

3. On top of that, in my experience, playing a Dex/Wis-based high AC character without either Uncanny Dodge or Mirror Image is very inconvenient and leads to a lot of unnecessary quickloads (and on my PC it takes about 1 minute to load the game). I'm convinced that it's worth multiclassing just to get either one or the other (especially in 200-hours long main campaign).

4. This is my first full playthrough. I've played the game at Day 1, but only got as far as Pitax (with more or less the same class and party) before deciding to wait for the patches. I still don't know how much AC I need to tank reliably. I thought that going for 70+ was overkill, but I've just met Adamantine Golem with +49 AB that could kill everyone in two hits/crit (Pic1 - https://imgur.com/a/XPP6Bo6). Said Golem also has 30 BAB which results in DC40 check for Adaptive Tactics I've also feared about Saving Throws, but now I've stacked 29/28/27. Not sure if it's enough for the late game.

5. So far hitting things was never a problem. My impromptu AD8/Arch2/Trad Monk2/Vivi2/SS1 has 5 (6 with haste) attacks per round with enough ABs to hit reliably and 3d6 precision damage on top (pic 2 - https://imgur.com/a/jMdc198). But offence was never a goal. High AC was and still is #1 priority, because Amiri/Reg/Smilodon/Jaethal (Inq3/Spawn Slayer12) and even Linzi can still kill most enemies in 1 round, even on unfair. Plus I'm playing without a cleric.

6. I've never understood multiclassing and always tried to play as pure class. Even in original BG1, I've always left Imoen as pure thief. But for some reason multicalssing in PF is just a lot of fun and from day 1 I've tried to multiclass everyone as much as possible. Harrim and Jubilost are the only ones for whom I have no alternative build so far .

 

[Desiderius]

Parabalus

If you queue up a Move Action (like Freebooter's Bane or a Bard Song from level 7 to 12) that requires also moving to get in range the game will often do a move or a Move Action then wait until the following turn to do the other one, since you only get one Move Action per turn. The problem is that this skips the Standard Action on the first turn significantly trashing your action economy.

You don't notice this nearly as much on a regular Kineticist, especially if you're using Extended Range, since you have to move a lot less. Where you really notice it is with a Magus since Spell Combat requires a Full Attack (including Move). The game tries to get around this by "charging" your weapon, but you'll find yourself sitting there forever since that charge used up your Move Action from your first turn. If you Charge during the first turn you get an Attack, then are in position for the Full Attack with Spell Combat on the following turn.

 

[Yosharian]

Has anyone else noticed a problem with custom portraits going all pixelated even though they are the correct dimensions, type, etc

 

[Desiderius]

I'm sorry, Desiderius, but you post so much, that I've lost the thread of what exactly you are trying to say/prove

1. In no way I'm trying to argue that there is just one best way to play the game, or the best class, or the best party composition. Everyone has it's own style of playing RPGs. I myself prefer melee-oriented parties with little or no offensive magic and minimum rests. And it reflects on my choice of classes.

2. That said, in the main campaign you can buy the Helm of the Battlefield Clarity from Hassuf, that more or less negates the malus from Combat Experties (and gives +2 Will). What else substantional bonuses the Swordlord gives you, I'm not sure. I think, just going for Steel Net would have given you the same bonuses without the need to make a Perception check.

3. On top of that, in my experience, playing a Dex/Wis-based high AC character without either Uncanny Dodge or Mirror Image is very inconvenient and leads to a lot of unnecessary quickloads (and on my PC it takes about 1 minute to load the game). I'm convinced that it's worth multiclassing just to get either one or the other (especially in 200-hours long main campaign).

4. This is my first full playthrough. I've played the game at Day 1, but only got as far as Pitax (with more or less the same class and party) before deciding to wait for the patches. I still don't know how much AC I need to tank reliably. I thought that going for 70+ was overkill, but I've just met Adamantine Golem with +49 AB that could kill everyone in two hits/crit (Pic1 - https://imgur.com/a/XPP6Bo6). Said Golem also has 30 BAB which results in DC40 check for Adaptive Tactics I've also feared about Saving Throws, but now I've stacked 29/28/27. Not sure if it's enough for the late game.

5. So far hitting things was never a problem. My impromptu AD8/Arch2/Trad Monk2/Vivi2/SS1 has 5 (6 with haste) attacks per round with enough ABs to hit reliably and 3d6 precision damage on top (pic 2 - https://imgur.com/a/jMdc198). But offence was never a goal. High AC was and still is #1 priority, because Amiri/Reg/Smilodon/Jaethal (Inq3/Spawn Slayer12) and even Linzi can still kill most enemies in 1 round, even on unfair. Plus I'm playing without a cleric.

6. I've never understood multiclassing and always tried to play as pure class. Even in original BG1, I've always left Imoen as pure thief. But for some reason multicalssing in PF is just a lot of fun and from day 1 I've tried to multiclass everyone as much as possible. Harrim and Jubilost are the only ones for whom I have no alternative build so far .

1. This is where the epistemology breaks down. We can talk about different approaches without taking things personally because we're talking about reality instead of agendas. You have nothing to lose but your maleducation. This is a melee-oriented party with little or no offensive magic and minimum rest. I want people (including you) to be aware of the alternatives that exist. It's not about Swordlord it's about whether splashes are (a) mandatory and/or (b) good.

2. You'll eventually want a better Helm, but yeah I have that on in these pics. Since you're full BAB that Helm only covers the malus until level 7. Steel Net + Adaptive does for the whole game.

3. It doesn't if you don't get attacked. Dead shit rolls no 20s. I’ve had two reloads in fifteen levels. I’ve played main campaign Unfair with rezzes and had about that rate, mostly due to sloppiness.

4. Going for 70+ is overkill. This isn't an MMO. To illustrate this concept they give you shit that is not intended to be tanked. People try to tank it anyway and break their builds. It isn't a matter of different people liking different approaches, it's a matter of people not grokking the design. This is a nice illustration of why relativism produces shitty epistemology.

5. Exactly. Distract that Golem and gank his ass. Or just bum rush him. Don't sweat the AC. Other mobs in that category are a lot less dangerous Disarmed as well. Which is the point of the original class.

6. The penalty is less if you don't need to beat saves, but you're still playing the whole game underleveled. Sometimes it's worth it. Now you have more information on which to make an informed decision.

7. Play with a Cleric. They do way more than heal.

 

[Desiderius]

Has anyone else noticed a problem with custom portraits going all pixelated even though they are the correct dimensions, type, etc

Only in Wrath a couple times.

 

[Sergiu64]

1. This is where the epistemology breaks down. We can talk about different approaches without taking things personally because we're talking about reality instead of agendas. You have nothing to lose but your malaeducation. This is a melee-oriented party with little or no offensive magic and minimum rest. I want people (including you) to be aware of the alternatives that exist. It's not about Swordlord it's about whether splashes are (a) mandatory and/or (b) good.

Think the disconnect you're having with a lot of the people in this thread is that you're missing the fact that we LIKE building stuff that's best at the job. Honestly - that's more fun than playing the damn game. The fact that there are many other builds out there that can do the job well enough is neither here nor there.

 

[Desiderius]

Sergiu64 It’s not the best, dipshit. Scoreboard.

Retards like yourself think it’s best.

People who haven’t thought about it much say to each his own.

I’m talking to both so things get easily confused. To the former: git gud. To the latter: thinking about it a little more can be fun, especially if it relieves one of the burden of having to do a research paper to find a viable build.

 

[Parabalus]

That was more related to

I don’t put attacks on auto for anyone

Don't think anyone disagrees with the below, it's why magus plays smoother in TB.

Parabalus

If you queue up a Move Action (like Freebooter's Bane or a Bard Song from level 7 to 12) that requires also moving to get in range the game will often do a move or a Move Action then wait until the following turn to do the other one, since you only get one Move Action per turn. The problem is that this skips the Standard Action on the first turn significantly trashing your action economy.

You don't notice this nearly as much on a regular Kineticist, especially if you're using Extended Range, since you have to move a lot less. Where you really notice it is with a Magus since Spell Combat requires a Full Attack (including Move). The game tries to get around this by "charging" your weapon, but you'll find yourself sitting there forever since that charge used up your Move Action from your first turn. If you Charge during the first turn you get an Attack, then are in position for the Full Attack with Spell Combat on the following turn.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah, I play TB in Real-Time. Everyone gets their instructions at the beginning of the round. Time advances as they execute them with stops for major developments, then game pauses at end of round (beginning of next one) for new instructions.

Magus plays fine in RTwP once you understand what is happening.

Many such cases.

 

[Sergiu64]

Sergiu64 It’s not the best, dipshit. Scoreboard.

Retards like yourself think it’s best.

People who haven’t thought about it much say to each his own.

I’m talking to both so things get easily confused. To the former: git gud. To the latter: thinking about it a little more can be fun, especially if it relieves one of the burden of having to do a research paper to find a viable build.

So you're honestly trying to say your Aldori Swordlord is just as viable as Haplo's SS?

 

[Mangoose]

Where you really notice it is with a Magus since Spell Combat requires a Full Attack (including Move). The game tries to get around this by "charging" your weapon, but you'll find yourself sitting there forever since that charge used up your Move Action from your first turn. If you Charge during the first turn you get an Attack, then are in position for the Full Attack with Spell Combat on the following turn.

That's actually how it's supposed to work. The only "Move" action that's allowed during a Full Attack is the 5-foot-step. That's why TB Is important.. because the mechanics were designed to work as a whole. I mean, Attack of Opportunities are ridiculously shallow if you don't have 5 ft move at the exact time. CMBs are fine but AoOs and movement and positioning are another realm of tactics. More options.

In fact you should be taking advantage of 5 ft move as a Magus. The Magus is not simply a one-on-one fighter. You can cast a Fireball to assist your teammates from 400ft+ away and then smack the guy in front of you. And even in the 1-on-1 fight you're going to want to take 5 ft steps sometimes when you need 100% guaranteed un-provoked casting Mirror Image.

Ironically, the inability to move+full attack is the main issue for melee fighters because you don't get your iteratives. Think about the TWF Fighter! Thus, when people look to make a melee character, they're somewhat restricted tactically - they have to take the classes/archetypes/features that give you a "Pounce" aka you can Full Attack after you move/charge. Pummeling charge. Ki flying kick. Barbarian Greater Bear Totem. The various Dervish Dancers. It's not exactly min-maxing because you don't really NEED it.. but it can make it frustrating to play a TWF fighter or pre-unchained Rogue.

I haven't seen 2e but I think what 3.5e needed was a Power Attack+Cleave or Whirlwind Attack or Spring Attack that was as effective as a spell or spell-like-ability. What ends up happening is that your non-spellcasting melee character is focused on logistics, focused on optimizing numerically. You don't have much to choose besides that, which means they are perfectly powerful but boring to play.

This is completely why the 6th-level melee-caster hybrids are stars. They didn't have those in D&D IIRC - only 4thlevel casters (Ranger, Paladin)

 

[Desiderius]

Sergiu64 It’s not the best, dipshit. Scoreboard.

Retards like yourself think it’s best.

People who haven’t thought about it much say to each his own.

I’m talking to both so things get easily confused. To the former: git gud. To the latter: thinking about it a little more can be fun, especially if it relieves one of the burden of having to do a research paper to find a viable build.

So you're honestly trying to say your Aldori Swordlord is just as viable as Haplo's SS?

Solo or group?

Taking a weapon and generating AoOs for a whole lethal group is no joke. Only a few mobs are lethal with a nat 20 unarmed and there you adjust your tactics. Solo you have no tactics to adjust to.

 

[Mangoose]

Also.. Charging your weapon is a separate action from attacking with it. The charge still stays on your sword (scimitar, if you're doing it right). Hit them next round. In fact, the main reason you change touch attacks is because there are touch spells that have multiple charges, allowing you to smack them with all your iteratives powered up, not just the first.

Actually, you should be able to charge your weapon whenever you want and hold it til you need it. Not sure if that's possible in this game (I end up shocking myself) but that's how it's supposed to be.

I think this is why I like the Magus best out of the hybrids. You get to mess around with its tactics during the fight, similar with Warpriest's Fervor, but not simply just a guy who can cast and attack. Movement.

 

[Desiderius]

Mang, I do all that in RTwP. With CotW you have to.

 

[Sergiu64]

Solo or group?

Group of course. That's kinda the thing - a well optimized group can have well optimized characters in every slot. Saying that an Aldori Swordlord can be just as good because your caster should be disabling encounters ignores the fact that the group with SS will have the same disabling caster. But when the said caster is out of spells - suddenly the power level of your melee characters starts to matter more. And that's not mentioning things like optimizing damage output and automatic trips, ability to go Nova, etc.

 

[Desiderius]

(1) The Swordlord is the one disabling the mobs himself.
CMs give you an entire additional angle of attack. Disarm gets additional support in CotW.

(2) As does turning off Morale, Competence, and Insight bonuses - something no other class can do, again immensely important in Wrath where Dispelling is very difficult and bosses are prebuffed.

(3) Swordlord can also handle Intimidation to set up Shatter for team as needed which is more important without the ability to use Dirge of Doom with Lingering Performance.

(4) Lastly with Steel Net and full Adaptive Tactics you’re getting +10 untyped AC virtually for free to keep random mobs off your back. But that’s only if you get there and aren’t slowed down by splashes.

Saint can spike better and tank the hardest fights better, but is more narrow, less resilient unbuffed, and offers fewer unique angles of attack.

Splashaholics sacrifice much of what makes the base class worth playing in pursuit of an empty immortality.

EDIT: Holic added a choice between Quick Draw and a Bonus Feat at Swordlord 1 which makes a big difference. I’d take the feat but with QD you could pull with ranged to turn on the defensive abilities then Display in first round of combat on the mobs rushing in.

In CotW you can get Image if you want it via Share Spells, in Wrath via UMD and scribe scrolls but just as well to distract hardest foes until they can be Disarmed.

 

[Mangoose]

Mang, do all that in RTwP. With CotW you have to.

What. I have not played RTWP at all. What if I want to 5-foot-move behind my friend next to me to play monkey in the middle while I set things up. Now I have to control the monkey and myself.

That's just one example. If you're creative tactically, there is no limit to how many tricks (tactics) you can think of.

 

[Mangoose]

Solo or group?

Group of course. That's kinda the thing - a well optimized group can have well optimized characters in every slot. Saying that an Aldori Swordlord can be just as good because your caster should be disabling encounters ignores the fact that the group with SS will have the same disabling caster. But when the said caster is out of spells - suddenly the power level of your melee characters starts to matter more. And that's not mentioning things like optimizing damage output and automatic trips, ability to go Nova, etc.

You don't need optimized characters. You need optimized tactics. You want to take advantage of AoOs and Trip? Trip a guy, then surround him with your team and watch him die as he tries to get up.

Battlefield control, do you do that? Are you making sure your characters are in flanking position while the other team can't, because you threw up a Wall of Fire dividing the other group maybe and they don't want to go through it.

 

[Desiderius]

Sry Mang typo.

Fixed.

 

[Mangoose]

Sry Mang typo.

Fixed.

Actually what was hilarious is that my other toon was invisible. This was during the Bloom fight. Ironically, harder enemies can be easier... if you have Jaethal to raise them after you kill them. I'm not just gonna stand there 1 on 1 anybody. I'm gonna summon something right in front of me, run my guy around and figure out another way to out-flank/out-number/divide the opposition.