Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Nikanuur]

Flurry never has had a penalty in P:K.

PnPers...

Just confirmed this week that you can dual-wield Sais and also Flurry, which is even better in CotW because off-hand gets iteratives without additional feats.

Six attax at level 7 (started with Thug 4). Could have been 7 but Sage Counselor trades Ki Extra Attack for a Feint.

It seems like it doesn't give iteratives to off-hand, only 1 then 2 extra attacks primary at full BAB. And then I get a penalty for TWF. This is with two monk weapons yeah.

Edit: OH I'm thinking about the Chained Monk in terms of the -2. Well either way, I should not be getting a TWF penalty because I am flurrying, not TWF.

I don't think I understand. TWF means having two weapons. Flurry, shouldn't mean you use one weapon out of two two times? But I am fairly new to "D&D 3.75" i don't know for sure.

 

[Cryomancer]

Playing as a dhampir pact wizard(races unleashed + call of the wild). Any way to stop my Azata minions from casting heal on me? And damaging me?

 

[Desiderius]

Flurry never has had a penalty in P:K.

PnPers...

Just confirmed this week that you can dual-wield Sais and also Flurry, which is even better in CotW because off-hand gets iteratives without additional feats.

Six attax at level 7 (started with Thug 4). Could have been 7 but Sage Counselor trades Ki Extra Attack for a Feint.

It seems like it doesn't give iteratives to off-hand, only 1 then 2 extra attacks primary at full BAB. And then I get a penalty for TWF. This is with two monk weapons yeah.

Edit: OH I'm thinking about the Chained Monk in terms of the -2. Well either way, I should not be getting a TWF penalty because I am flurrying, not TWF.

I don't think I understand. TWF means having two weapons. Flurry, shouldn't mean you use one weapon out of two two times? But I am fairly new to "D&D 3.75" i don't know for sure.

If you equip a weapon in your off-hand all your attacks are at -2 unless you have Mythic 2-weapon fighting from Wrath. Blade Tutor from CotW can give you +2 at lvl five to counteract in, but it’s a personal spell.

 

[Mangoose]

Sais are weapons. You’re holding two of them.

I'm flurrying with them. It doesn't technically say I have to use my primary weapon. You can be holding two Sais but your Flurrying is coming from unarmed leg kicks. You can pick and choose each strike. The monk weapon extra attack is already taken into account - it's assumed that if you're not holding a monk weapon in your offhand, you are punching them with your offhand instead.

Plainly put, when you're Flurrying, a monk weapon is essentially an unarmed strike BAB-wise. It's not a treated as an offhand strike. All strikes are treated like unarmed strike equal to your BAB.

When using this ability, the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what’s already granted by the flurry for doing so.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained/

C'mon, this is how Flurry has always worked. You get extra smacks from whichever limb or monk weapon you're using.

 

[Mangoose]

Flurry never has had a penalty in P:K.

PnPers...

Just confirmed this week that you can dual-wield Sais and also Flurry, which is even better in CotW because off-hand gets iteratives without additional feats.

Six attax at level 7 (started with Thug 4). Could have been 7 but Sage Counselor trades Ki Extra Attack for a Feint.

It seems like it doesn't give iteratives to off-hand, only 1 then 2 extra attacks primary at full BAB. And then I get a penalty for TWF. This is with two monk weapons yeah.

Edit: OH I'm thinking about the Chained Monk in terms of the -2. Well either way, I should not be getting a TWF penalty because I am flurrying, not TWF.

I don't think I understand. TWF means having two weapons. Flurry, shouldn't mean you use one weapon out of two two times? But I am fairly new to "D&D 3.75" i don't know for sure.

No. You tell the DM that you are not actively using TWF as your full round action, you are choosing to use Flurry of Blows for your full round action. You can't do both, actually, because they are both full round actions. The same reason you can't Flurry and Spell Combat. Spell Combat is a Full Round Action.

Flurrying just imagines you're flailing around with any limb. An unarmed flurry of blows could be coming from punches, kicks, both, etc. but they're all the same BAB, even though you are quadruple-wielding unarmed strikes. Anyways, with a monk weapon, and if you choose to use Flurry of Blows with your monk weapon, then there is no penalty. You get the extra strikes from Flurry, you do NOT get the extra strikes from TWF.

Unless you specify you want to TWF insteaf of FOB.

Edit: I'm not saying that this is good game design. But by being a rule, well, every rule presupposes the existence of every other rule. That's why I say it's questionable to just change something without thinking it through. Adapt it to something that is similar and less confusing.

 

[Mangoose]

Flurry never has had a penalty in P:K.

PnPers...

Just confirmed this week that you can dual-wield Sais and also Flurry, which is even better in CotW because off-hand gets iteratives without additional feats.

Six attax at level 7 (started with Thug 4). Could have been 7 but Sage Counselor trades Ki Extra Attack for a Feint.

It seems like it doesn't give iteratives to off-hand, only 1 then 2 extra attacks primary at full BAB. And then I get a penalty for TWF. This is with two monk weapons yeah.

Edit: OH I'm thinking about the Chained Monk in terms of the -2. Well either way, I should not be getting a TWF penalty because I am flurrying, not TWF.

I don't think I understand. TWF means having two weapons. Flurry, shouldn't mean you use one weapon out of two two times? But I am fairly new to "D&D 3.75" i don't know for sure.

If you equip a weapon in your off-hand all your attacks are at -2

No, they're at -4. -2 with the feat... as well as the offhand being a light weapon. But in terms of what I meant by -2, I was just confusing it with the Chained Monk (Monk, Barbarian, Rogues, Ninja, and Summoners I think all got "Unchained" revisions. So this is how it was at core for the monk:

Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.

When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to utilize this ability).

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/

 

[Desiderius]

Jesus fucking Christ, would you play the goddamned game before spouting off for once?

Nullius in Verba

 

[Mangoose]

Jesus fucking Christ, would you play the goddamned game before spouting off for once?

Nullius in Verba

Yes, I am playing right now. What's your point?

 

[Mangoose]

Well tbh FOB and TWF will stop stacking once Holic fixes his mod

Edit: and it's called Alt-tab

Jubilost doesn't feel Chaotic imo... Well it looks like he's from Pathfinder lore so he was adventurous back then, now he's just shitting on everything.

 

[PanDupa]

Can anyone give some advice how to build melee slayer? Preferably TWF. Should I go full dex with finese weapons? What feats work best with him? Playing with cotw

 

[Desiderius]

Why melee?

 

[Efe]

like rangers, you dont need to have stats to qualify for style feats
so no, you dont need to be dex

 

[PanDupa]

Why melee?

Well silly reason, I just prefer my PC as melee class. Is it range slayer that much better?

like rangers, you dont need to have stats to qualify for style feats
so no, you dont need to be dex

So should I go pretty much even spread str, dex?

Thanks for replies guys

 

[Nikanuur]

Who wouldve thought a simple Grease spell is so op.
---
EDIT - casting multiple Grease spells instead of attack spells :D and then just waiting for attacks of opportunity from your companions neatly gathered around the unfortunate perpetrator.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Who wouldve thought a simple Grease spell is so op.

Careful that's a slippery slope you're on.

 

[Desiderius]

Rogues have more tools for DEX melee and Fighters/Rangers for STR. Slayers are ideal for two-weapon ranged to double up on Studied Target and Sneaks.

CotW lets you get all your off-hand iteratives at 15 DEX which lets you use Menacing Combat Style* even with STR-based. If you’re determined to go Slayer Melee Vanguard is best bet because it has Uncanny Dodge.

* - or even Weapon and Shield which lets you get Shield Mastery way ahead of schedule

 

[Nikanuur]

Who wouldve thought a simple Grease spell is so op.

Careful that's a slippery slope you're on.

I don't need to hear it as much as that poor Owlbear getting prone 5x and getting stuck at least 3x in the entangled ground. He did climb those stairs towards my last two archers in the end, yes, he did. But still, died within a claw's distance in front of their faces; hide bristled with countless arrows and seared by many an alchemist's bomb. Phew, until today I've not known, a turn based fight can bring such a suspension.

 

[Desiderius]

Stairs?

The lvl one spell challenge sounds like fun.

 

[Nano]

I'm pretty sure CotW nerfed Grease. It was close to useless the few times I tried it with the mod.

The nerf was kind of necessary, to be fair.

 

[Desiderius]

It’s good if you’re trying to play Unfair the first five levels and like to kite I guess. There are better ways to attack Reflex, especially in CotW.

Maybe people get overwhelmed by all the options so stick with what “works”?

Tried to pick up old DDO acct last night and felt that way. No idea where to even start.

 

[Nikanuur]

I'm pretty sure CotW nerfed Grease. It was close to useless the few times I tried it with the mod.

The nerf was kind of necessary, to be fair.

I'm playing CoTW. I am now only 5th level, so I cannot say how it works on the higher levels. But for me, so far, it worked for all the difficult fights with big-HD enemies. Even the Champions. Only the Wererats with very high reflex-saves begged to differ -.- All other fights, inc. Owlbear fight at the Stag Lord's, enemies get hopelessly stuck if I cast 1-3 greases under them and, for the added safety measure, Entangle. The Wand of Grease helps too.

Idk how it was supposed to (not) work, but the enemies generaly fall prone almost every turn after a single step. When they reach my front liners standing at the very precipice of the grease, after the many turns of being bombarded by the archer / bomb / spell squad issuing all the ranged mayhem possible, the tougher enemies have like 1/2 or less HP. Once the enemy falls prone before the 1-3 frontliners and then stand up again, they generally receive a tremendous damage, mostly getting killed due to those 1-3 free attack of opportunity.

The same went on in the fight at the Stag Lord's. It was very intense, almost as if from some fantasy book. Four of my characters were unconsciouss. What remained was two archers depleted in health, scrolls and wands in their last stand, hudled at the end of one of the two wooden plateaus. Also there was a lone cleric at the far side of the entangled ground, unable to engage. Now, the Owlbear being the last enemy alive, still with half of his tremendous HP pool, crawled slowly through the entangled effect towards the two archers, falling prone every odd turn or so due to the many Grease spells. Nevertheless, it was steadily, ominiously closing in. Tough-as-nails, arrows kiting it to some extend, but never very much. In the very end it climbed the wooden stairs, freeing itself from the slowing spells, and made it close enough to almost claw at the archers. Though the Owlbear was almost out of HP at that time, it would had taken only one more turn before the archers would be finished. That one fatal turn however, cleric also got in reach from the other side. He's tossed the last saved Alchemist's Fire, and has actually killed the monster. Was a helluva lucky lob. Cleric dexterity 10, only one bottle of fire left, the monster probably with 10-20 HP left or so. It took me totally by surprise, and I wtf'ed my screen wet :D 15 mins of a turn-based fight! Couldn't believe it ended in win and in such a way. I didn't even check the combat log at that time.

Btw, looked later at https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/alchemical-weapons/ I now know, the Alchemist's fire can crit. So it must've been one - a top of the roll at that.

 

[Desiderius]

Lol, you were fighting the Owlbear at the Stag Lord’s Fort. Was trying to figure out where there were stairs and an Owlbear.

Never heard of anyone trying to fight it.

It’s fun to pull out fights by the skin of your teeth. It’s also fun to improve to the point where you usually don’t have to.

 

[Mangoose]

It’s fun to pull out fights by the skin of your teeth. It’s relieving to improve to the point where you usually don’t have to.

ftfy haha

So I respecced my main into a Mindblade Magus, which lets me spellstrike and/or spell combat with a 2-hander or TWF... which is AWESOME because the 1-handed slashing animation is COMPLETE SHIT. After two iteratives it looks like you're trying to chop a log. Did they forget to add a horizontal animation or something?

It's completely ridiculous that the nunchaku are treated like an axe.

(A) it looks hilarious (B) developers need to putting a warning: this weapon animation sucks, don't use it.

---

Also, Acid Pit is disgustingly overpowered. Erase from Time is pretty OP too but it's at least funny. With Acid Pit I just feel pity for my enemies.

 

[Yosharian]

So I respecced my main into a Mindblade Magus, which lets me spellstrike and/or spell combat with a 2-hander or TWF...

Ooh that's neat

 

[Mangoose]

So I respecced my main into a Mindblade Magus, which lets me spellstrike and/or spell combat with a 2-hander or TWF...

Ooh that's neat

I have to use a manifested weapon though. So I can't use a speshul weapon, that being said, nothing stopping me from pulling out the Extinguisher when I see Will'o'wisps and playing just regular full attacks. Or just cast spells. Adding 6-level spell casters with 3/4 BAB classes was such a good idea.

I'm pretty sure CotW nerfed Grease. It was close to useless the few times I tried it with the mod.

The nerf was kind of necessary, to be fair.

Incidentally you're more correct than you think - the Grease change made it closer to original PNP rules.

Go skim the CotW description page. He's categorized which changes are
"In addition mod also makes some changes to make existing content closer to pnp"
"Original game bug fixes"
"Notable differences from pnp" as well as
"Optional balance fixes."

You can enable/disable some of those in the settings.json file in the mod folder. That includes the companion changes.

I decided to turn off the "balance fixes" because that's like playing someone's homebrew rules, which is kinda weird to do lol.