Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Nikanuur]

So, I've just finished the game with something that seems totally unfathomable.

Spoiler

Around 5 kinda scarce conversational ticks with Nyrissa and Lantern king that seemed to promote compassion (Lawful good character). And that was it. End of the game. No enormous fight, no enormous conversation, no nothing. I mean, I feel only negligibly cheated, but I am not displeased or left undone or anything in general. Mostly just very very surprised with geting off that easily. Other endings on youtube spouted options that seemed like at least another hour of gameplay of fights and choices. Wow. Just wow, I don't think I've ever seen this in any RPG :D

 

[Nikanuur]

From what I've seen, pets can be pretty strong and they really make the intro and the first Act much easier. But when you're fighting in narrow spaces, their size can make it difficult for them to reach the enemies (and they get bigger when reaching level 4 or 7).

I'd say Leopard all the way. A bit of a tactical off-fighter, very long distance for pouncing attack, triping enemies all the time, normal size, pretty high AC (can be the best tank against the touch attacks), easy to build around not provoking any Attack of Opportunity but giving the (tripping) hell of AoO to enemy mages and rangeds. The cons are his relatively low damage (I went crazy with respec and gave him 2 dices of sneak attack through the thief tree), and a mediocre amount of HP.

 

[Nikanuur]

I sympathize somewhat with being tired of the general shift in fantasy stereotypes and art. .

We have had a famous death-machine, purple-eyed humanoid from the caves of the eternal evil going wild about being chaotic good under the sun. So I vote for monks who like to explore the many usages of the Diamond body with any amiable humanoid of female predispositions as part of their training

Other than that, I agree

 

[Stavrophore]

Anyone tried doing a "no rest challenge"? Meaning no resting unless campaign specifically needs you to rest/you need to be in certain day/time.

 

[Erebus]

I'd say Leopard all the way. A bit of a tactical off-fighter, very long distance for pouncing attack, triping enemies all the time, normal size, pretty high AC (can be the best tank against the touch attacks), easy to build around not provoking any Attack of Opportunity but giving the (tripping) hell of AoO to enemy mages and rangeds. The cons are his relatively low damage (I went crazy with respec and gave him 2 dices of sneak attack through the thief tree), and a mediocre amount of HP.

I did pick a leopard as a pet when I played the game as a druid. The many attacks of the smilodon were rather tempting, but tripping attacks are so annoying when used against you that I really wanted my animal companion to be able to use them.

 

[Desiderius]

Anyone tried doing a "no rest challenge"? Meaning no resting unless campaign specifically needs you to rest/you need to be in certain day/time.

The game already rewards you for doing this. The less you rest the higher the kingdom stats. I ended up having to skip 237 days last playthrough.

Spoiler

 

[Orud]

After several months I finally 'finished' the story parts of the game, and sent plenty of comps through the depths. I still can't get enough of the combat and party building, just thinking about it makes me want to start the game up again. There's just so much to love about this game, but I'm conflicted about calling it a classic.

There is one big, ugly, stain on this game and that's the kingdom management (KM).

First off; I made the mistake of playing the game with KM on normal difficulty and I acknowledge that it might've soured my feelings about it. Plenty of posters mention that it's an easily ignorable part of the game, but the fact that I sometimes had to spend hours at a time on the KM screen still made it a though pill to swallow. Not that it was hard on normal, it's just that it kept going on and on. That leads into my next issue; I simply didn't think the KM was engaging at all and quite poorly thought out. Do good and the odds get stacked in your favor, do badly and shit spirals out of control quite fast (although a few bail-out cards exist). It feels like a much needed middle-ground just isn't there. I'm willing to concede that I'm wrong about that, and that someone with more experience like Desiderius would point out that the KM is actually an OK system, but I can't bother myself to go any deeper into it. On normal difficulty for a first time player, it felt like annoying shit.

And that's what's keeping me from calling it a classic. While other classic games have some shitty parts, it just feels like the shitty part of this game takes up too much of it. When I do my next playthrough, I'll definitely pace out adventuring and KM a lot better. But for a new player that isn't evident, so I can't recommend it to my buddies without some serious warning signs. In the meanwhile I've pre-ordered WoTR, while praying that army management won't be the same garbage as KM.

 

[Desiderius]

KM is missing two pieces of information that would make everyone think it’s fine if not love it - there’s no way to love it since it’s so unfinished.

1) How Bald Hilltop timer works. This is the only way things can spin out of control. People get all paranoid about missing a check when the only thing that can really hurt you are the hawks.

2) That the (pretty great) itemization and a good chunk of the EXP/income potential is gated behind kingdom ranks.

If you understand 2) then you’re motivated to figure it out and if you understand 1) then you’re not avoiding doing that because you’re terrified you’ll lose your game.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I applaud the courage of my Russian compatriots who dared to include what it is to be the Baron into the game about being the Baron. My only gripe about Kingdom Management is the lack of visual feedback; but I understand that it is the worst possible resource sink for a small studio. Well, may be voice over is worse.

Reading western whining about this amazing part of the game makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

 

[Gargaune]

My only gripe about Kingdom Management is the lack of visual feedback

Mine is precisely the opposite - the 3D "visual" feedback's nice, such as it is, but it's not worth the Kingdom and Town loading screens. I think it would've worked better if they'd crammed it all into a 2D management UI next to the Journal menu or whatnot.

 

[LannTheStupid]

loading screens.

Upgrade your SSD. Or buy one.

 

[Gargaune]

Upgrade your SSD. Or buy one.

Been using 'em for years but PFKM are still far from inconsequential, and I just don't think that the benefits of Kingdom Management involving two separate 3D modes are worth it. Okay, you get a nice animation when you annex another region, but eh. A nice 2D UI overlay would've been much more comfortable.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I just don't think that the benefits of Kingdom Management involving two separate 3D modes are worth it.

Only because they did not build on that. They should have modified the map with bridges, roads and mines, and extend the town/city UI to include the most prominent buildings like the Mage Guild or Kobold Quarters.

But this is the same resource sink as ship combat in Deadfire, so it was a wise decision not to go further.

P.S.: Do you have the Wildcards DLC that introduced Aviaries?

 

[Gargaune]

But this is the same resource sink as ship combat in Deadfire, so it was a wise decision not to go further.

Yes, and Deadfire does ship combat in a 2D UI which shows in a snap.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Yes, and Deadfire does ship combat in a 2D UI which shows in a snap.

Which cost them resources that might have used (I still believe in Obsidian) to change the main story line. Which prevents me from playing this game.

 

[Gargaune]

Which cost them resources that might have used (I still believe in Obsidian) to change the main story line. Which prevents me from playing this game.

Dude, you gotta get your ducks in order here - first you say that Owlcat should've added more trinkets to the kingdom management map, then you say it was wise that they didn't because it would've been the same waste as Obsidian's ship combat. Then I think you're suggesting that Obsidian sunk more resources into their 2D UI than Owlcat did in their 3D kingdom and town interfaces? That's not right.

My point is that in the kingdom management mode we got, there isn't much to warrant breaking up the game flow with loading screens. That it would've been better served by a quick-loading 2D overlay, like, okay, Obsidian did with their ship encounters.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Gargaune I will answer you only because of your piece on NWN-2.

1. Yes, they should have added more 3D visuals, but they were wise not to. Because pouring limited resources to visual feedback - even after establishing the framework for it - is not beneficial for the game in general. Other facets of Kingdom Management, especially artizan quests, are brilliant.
2. I see no "breaking up the game flow with loading screens". I can send you my glasses on the cheap (only $199.95 + shipping) if you want them.

 

[Desiderius]

I’ve got brand new upgrades I got to run BG and loading screens still break up my games.

 

[Gargaune]

Gargaune I will answer you only because of your piece on NWN-2.

1. Yes, they should have added more 3D visuals, but they were wise not to. Because pouring limited resources to visual feedback - even after establishing the framework for it - is not beneficial for the game in general. Other facets of Kingdom Management, especially artizan quests, are brilliant.
2. I see no "breaking up the game flow with loading screens". I can send you my glasses on the cheap (only $199.95) if you want them.

What are you getting so bent out of shape for? I didn't even rate your posts Shit which is my usual go-to button. Look:

Yes, they should have added more 3D visuals

but they were wise not to.

These are contradictory statements in English - if it's wise not to do a thing, you shouldn't do it. Don't you see why I'm not following your argument here? As for you not seeing the break in flow, I'm guessing you mean you're not bothered by it, but I don't see how you can argue that a loading screen, even a few seconds, is the same as an instant 2D overlay. A 2D map which would've probably been less work for Owlcat than the dedicated KM mode we got, not more. Now, in all fairness to Owlcat, they did add the setting to "Improve Kingdom Loading Times" which makes a significant difference, but it's still a far cry from a menu pop-up.

I’ve got brand new upgrades I got to run BG and loading screens still break up my games.

Same with IWD2 on my end, old code doesn't necessarily scale to new hardware.

 

[The_Mask]

KM is pretty great. The only issue I have with it the Region Upgrades. "Royal Hunting Grounds" - no effect.

fuck you, asshole, then why put it in the game?!? Oh... you pillaged the Temple of the Elk... well tough luck, bitch...!!!

Actually wait, that sounds pretty great actually. C&C

Spoiler

Except Silverstep. No one likes Silverstep.

 

[oldmanpaco]

My only gripe about Kingdom Management is the lack of visual feedback

Mine is precisely the opposite - the 3D "visual" feedback's nice, such as it is, but it's not worth the Kingdom and Town loading screens. I think it would've worked better if they'd crammed it all into a 2D management UI next to the Journal menu or whatnot.

Yeah after the first few towns I never cared what anything looked like. If the KM city screens actually effected the in-game tows/city layout it would have made more sense.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Gargaune
Owlcat Games created a framework to insert any visual feedback they wanted to the city/town UI. I guess they spent some resources on that, but it was new and fun. Then, they would have to meticulously track all the possible changes the player makes and reflect them in the town/city interface. This is boring, time-consuming, prone to errors, and not fun. So they ditched it. And this decision is correct

Now there is a town interface, but it is limited and does not reflect strategic Kingdom Management advances. Frustrating, but good.

I still have no idea what breaks what for you. I have no problem with any amount of any screens if the game is worth it. Get used to that - or play something else.

 

[Yosharian]

After several months I finally 'finished' the story parts of the game, and sent plenty of comps through the depths. I still can't get enough of the combat and party building, just thinking about it makes me want to start the game up again. There's just so much to love about this game, but I'm conflicted about calling it a classic.

There is one big, ugly, stain on this game and that's the kingdom management (KM).

First off; I made the mistake of playing the game with KM on normal difficulty and I acknowledge that it might've soured my feelings about it. Plenty of posters mention that it's an easily ignorable part of the game, but the fact that I sometimes had to spend hours at a time on the KM screen still made it a though pill to swallow. Not that it was hard on normal, it's just that it kept going on and on. That leads into my next issue; I simply didn't think the KM was engaging at all and quite poorly thought out. Do good and the odds get stacked in your favor, do badly and shit spirals out of control quite fast (although a few bail-out cards exist). It feels like a much needed middle-ground just isn't there. I'm willing to concede that I'm wrong about that, and that someone with more experience like Desiderius would point out that the KM is actually an OK system, but I can't bother myself to go any deeper into it. On normal difficulty for a first time player, it felt like annoying shit.

And that's what's keeping me from calling it a classic. While other classic games have some shitty parts, it just feels like the shitty part of this game takes up too much of it. When I do my next playthrough, I'll definitely pace out adventuring and KM a lot better. But for a new player that isn't evident, so I can't recommend it to my buddies without some serious warning signs. In the meanwhile I've pre-ordered WoTR, while praying that army management won't be the same garbage as KM.

I've said it before, put Kingdom Management on Effortless and do not hesitate to cheat yourself some extra BP or whatever if you're getting frustrated. Don't let that part of the game dictate your enjoyment of it! It's all on my Steam page.

 

[Gargaune]

I still have no idea what breaks what for you.

Clearly.

 

[Nikanuur]

I've had some poorer times with the kingdom management prior to Pitax influence but nothing terrible. It was just part of the game to understand and overcome. It was cool. Now the Pitax influence on normal KM difficulty made me loose half of the stats to 0. Paradoxically, I have been traveling and questing at that time a lot, and I found out only too late. I'd even go so far as to say it was handled poorly gameplay-wise. No explanation had been given (or did I miss it maybe?) as for example with the Bald Hill attacks or the Trolls are rampaging your lands, people are revolting thing etc. And it was, sadly, the hardest negative influence on kingdom stats in the whole game.

I'm sure some people would say I should've understood that all by my self. That maybe true. Luckily, with people advising here and me trying to understand what is going on I've managed to save the kingdom. Phew.

But even with this I wouldn't say the kingdom management as boring or poor or bothersome etc. It was part of the game. It seemed quite refreshing to have a different RPG like this. It was nice to see all the little buildings growing up, making the choices with counsellors after their level rises, seeing the restoration projects or reading some more lore after finishing the curses' investigations.

And anyway:
1) As Yosharian said, it can be significantly eased by turning on the "effortless management".
2) We gamers eat frustration for breakfast so...