Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Daidre]

Also why is that horse is the only one that doesn't grow in size? I didn't play WotR long enough to know.

Horse is unique - it starts Large, so classes built around Mounted Combat could ride it from lvl 1, and does not grow one step bigger at lvl 4, when it gets stat increases like all pets.
I think biggest mechanical point of this guide - looking at the size, like Small/Medium/Large, or even at pet model could be misleading, it is all about the size of the green selection circle. So even if numbers themselves could turn out not to be applicable to Kingmaker, it has solid idea about what you should look at to compare them properly.

 

[Yosharian]

That's interesting but the radius alone is not necessarily indicative of how animal companions will perform in the actual game

 

[Haplo]

Leopard for the win!

There is a very nice size comparison guide on Steam https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2594856263, so smallest pet are Horse and Wolf, not even a Leopard. It is for the Wrath, but I do not think old pets changed since Kingmaker.

That's for WotR, is it the same for Kingmaker? In theory should be but knowing Owlcat programming prowess of late... Also why is that horse is the only one that doesn't grow in size? I didn't play WotR long enough to know.

The horse already starts as Large (can be mounted by Medium characters from level 1). Consequently it does not need to grow normally.

BUT as a consequence it also avoids the bug/feature that other Animal Companions have - that their level 7/4 growth is considered an active effect/buff and when you cast a size increasing spell on them, it "overlaps" and they stay the same size (or +1 Size with Legendary Proportions). A Horse grows Huge with Animal Growth and Gargantuan with Legendary Proportions.
Which is... not great for pathfinding, bodyblocking of allies or mapping paths for a mounted charge...

 

[Yosharian]

A Horse grows Huge with Animal Growth and Gargantuan with Legendary Proportions.
Which is... not great for pathfinding, bodyblocking of allies or mapping paths for a mounted charge...

Alright but it's still the same as any other creature with LP on right?

 

[gurugeorge]

By the way, I feel like the pet strat got indirectly nerfed in wrath by the sheer amount of fight you have to take in small corridor, and you can easley get fucked by being bottlenecked. I had to reload a couple of fight because bismuth fat ass got in the way.

Bismuth is really cute, but I've given up on him, he's such a PITA (especially with the constant unloading of gear).

Also, does anyone else have a thing where he starts walking sideways and you have to actually go back to main menu and reload to reset it (just reloading won't do)?

 

[Haplo]

A Horse grows Huge with Animal Growth and Gargantuan with Legendary Proportions.
Which is... not great for pathfinding, bodyblocking of allies or mapping paths for a mounted charge...

Alright but it's still the same as any other creature with LP on right?

No, other pets get +1 Size from Legendary Proportions. A Horse gets +2 Size increases.
More importantly, most pets get +0 Size from Animal Growth. A Horse gets +1 Size from AG.

 

[Daidre]

Also, does anyone else have a thing where he starts walking sideways and you have to actually go back to main menu and reload to reset it (just reloading won't do)?

All pets walking sideways or even backward after 1.3( I suspect it sometimes happens when you open inventory while they are moving at the moment.
Owlcat's bugfixing skills(

 

[Sarathiour]

Bismuth is really cute, but I've given up on him, he's such a PITA (especially with the constant unloading of gear).

I tried bringing him to Alushynra once.

Don't.

 

[gurugeorge]

Also, does anyone else have a thing where he starts walking sideways and you have to actually go back to main menu and reload to reset it (just reloading won't do)?

All pets walking sideways or even backward after 1.3( I suspect it sometimes happens when you open inventory while they are moving at the moment.
Owlcat's bugfixing skills(

Now that you mention it, yes, it has happened with other pets too. I had a feeling it had something to do with the inventory, as I noticed that the paper doll for the pet is sometimes facing sideways or backwards while the characters are facing fowards, and if you spin the character around, the pet will spin round proportionately. It's like their orientation in relation to the other characters gets botched somehow.

 

[Yosharian]

A Horse grows Huge with Animal Growth and Gargantuan with Legendary Proportions.
Which is... not great for pathfinding, bodyblocking of allies or mapping paths for a mounted charge...

Alright but it's still the same as any other creature with LP on right?

No, other pets get +1 Size from Legendary Proportions. A Horse gets +2 Size increases.
More importantly, most pets get +0 Size from Animal Growth. A Horse gets +1 Size from AG.

Err so a Horse with LP on is much bigger than, say, Bismuth with LP on?

 

[Haplo]

A Horse grows Huge with Animal Growth and Gargantuan with Legendary Proportions.
Which is... not great for pathfinding, bodyblocking of allies or mapping paths for a mounted charge...

Alright but it's still the same as any other creature with LP on right?

No, other pets get +1 Size from Legendary Proportions. A Horse gets +2 Size increases.
More importantly, most pets get +0 Size from Animal Growth. A Horse gets +1 Size from AG.

Err so a Horse with LP on is much bigger than, say, Bismuth with LP on?

I haven't actually measured it and a triceratop's default in-game model size is so much bigger then a horses that who knows? But the horse will be formally 1 size category bigger.

 

[Average Manatee]

EDIT: It seems w/ shields it sets the enhancement to +1 to +5, but with armor it always stacks with everything. I'm assuming its a bug and should be setting enhancement bonus for armor the same way. Also the armor version works on pets which makes no sense, but hey, even more stupidly powerful pet build things to spam. Game should be called Petfinder: Good boy maker.

Are you sure? In Wrath it definitely adds a +1-5 bonus on top of your shield bonus.

Testing it now and it definitely doesn't for Kingmaker. It also doesn't set the enhancement bonus like I said (which would at least be decent), unfortunately it seems to set the total shield bonus. So if Valerie has a +1 AC buckler, a level 16 cleric casting magical vestments will add +3 AC to make it +4 AC total. However if Valerie has an unenchanted tower shield (+4 AC), then the same level 16 cleric casting magical vestments does nothing. In other words it's basically the same as the level 1 mage shield spell, except that you have to hold a shield to have it on you in the first place which kind of defeats the purpose. After all even bucklers will reach +4/+5 AC before your cleric reaches level 16/20.

Spoiler

Magical Vestment, Shield replacing the shield bonus when shield is <5 AC.

Spoiler

Magical Vestment, shield doing nothing if the shield is stronger than it.

Magical Vestment, Armor does stack with everything because it registers as an armor enhancement bonus. Someone with autistic knowledge of pathfinder AC categories and stacking can tell me if that's correct. It seems to me that both are wrong and the effect of Magical Vestments should be to upgrade an equipped armor or shield to +1 to +5 magical enhancement. This would require both armor and shields to have separate armor/shield and armor/shield enhancement bonuses. So e.g. rather than this mithril full plate +2 being +11 armor, it'd be +9 armor +2 armor enhancement and magical vestments would upgrade it to be +9 armor +5 armor enhancement.

 

[Sarathiour]

Uh.

Maybe it has been patched, because I don't think that was the case back then. It get even weirder considering that it does not apply the same rule to armor, and also differ from wrath.

 

[Average Manatee]

From what I can tell it's been this way the whole time:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/kf8azm/so_magic_vestment_is_still_broken/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/9n1873/please_verify_magic_vestment_broken/
(4 years old)

I don't have a wrath game to compare to and see if its working differently there since the game has awful graphical issues on my PC for some reason. I'd be interested to hear exactly how both versions of the spell function there though.

 

[Yosharian]

Ok that's very weird, I just assumed it was doing the same in KM that it was doing in Wrath, that's my bad and it really ruins this DR Tank build I was thinking of running for the Evil party sigh

 

[Yosharian]

The way it is meant to work in Pathfinder is that an enhancement bonus, rather than being considered a 'separate' bonus, improves an existing armour bonus.

 

[Yosharian]

And also people get really upset when you try to say that bracers of armour should count for the purposes of magic vestment because apparently that isn't how the imaginary spell works

 

[Average Manatee]

The way it is meant to work in Pathfinder is that an enhancement bonus, rather than being considered a 'separate' bonus, improves an existing armour bonus.

So casting a level 20 magical vestments on a shield/armor +1 should improve it to shield/armor +5? Is that how it works in Wrath?

And also people get really upset when you try to say that bracers of armour should count for the purposes of magic vestment because apparently that isn't how the imaginary spell works

From what I can tell Magic Vestments should just work on everything. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-vestment/ mentions it working on regular clothing. From what I can tell this is how it currently works for armor in Kingmaker, you can be naked and still get up to +5 (which is probably why it works on pets). It just shouldn't stack with already existing enhancement bonuses.

 

[Yosharian]

The way it is meant to work in Pathfinder is that an enhancement bonus, rather than being considered a 'separate' bonus, improves an existing armour bonus.

So casting a level 20 magical vestments on a shield/armor +1 should improve it to shield/armor +5? Is that how it works in Wrath?

And also people get really upset when you try to say that bracers of armour should count for the purposes of magic vestment because apparently that isn't how the imaginary spell works

From what I can tell Magic Vestments should just work on everything. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-vestment/ mentions it working on regular clothing. From what I can tell this is how it currently works for armor in Kingmaker, you can be naked and still get up to +5 (which is probably why it works on pets). It just shouldn't stack with already existing enhancement bonuses.

Nah, that's how it works in Pathfinder. In Wrath it just gives you an additional +5 that's completely separate from other bonuses. You have to be carrying a shield to be able to benefit from the shield one though.

In Kingmaker.. well I was sure that the armor one worked the same as Wrath but I need to test it now

As for bracers, Magic Vestment categorically does not work on them by RAW. Which is annoying as hell.

 

[Average Manatee]

As for bracers, Magic Vestment categorically does not work on them by RAW. Which is annoying as hell.

Well it doesn't matter much. According to the rules it works on unenchanted clothing, so the only instance in which this would matter is if you were completely naked except for wearing bracers. If you have both bracers and clothes then it wouldn't matter whether the spell is technically affecting your bracers or your clothes.

 

[Grunker]

As for bracers, Magic Vestment categorically does not work on them by RAW. Which is annoying as hell.

Well it doesn't matter much. According to the rules it works on unenchanted clothing, so the only instance in which this would matter is if you were completely naked except for wearing bracers. If you have both bracers and clothes then it wouldn't matter whether the spell is technically affecting your bracers or your clothes.

Sounds like it matters a great deal for my upcoming nudist monk

 

[Yosharian]

As for bracers, Magic Vestment categorically does not work on them by RAW. Which is annoying as hell.

Well it doesn't matter much. According to the rules it works on unenchanted clothing, so the only instance in which this would matter is if you were completely naked except for wearing bracers. If you have both bracers and clothes then it wouldn't matter whether the spell is technically affecting your bracers or your clothes.

Nah man you're not getting it, let's say I'm wearing bracers +5, and clothing, and I cast a level 20 magic vestment spell on myself - I get zero improvement to my AC, because the spell only works on my clothing, boosting it to a 5 AC. So I end up with two items that grant the same 5 AC bonus, which don't stack

 

[Average Manatee]

Nah man you're not getting it, let's say I'm wearing bracers +5, and clothing, and I cast a level 20 magic vestment spell on myself - I get zero improvement to my AC, because the spell only works on my clothing, boosting it to a 5 AC. So I end up with two items that grant the same 5 AC bonus, which don't stack

From what I can tell it *should* stack in PnP.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracers-of-armor/
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-vestment/

This says that Bracers +5 should give a +5 armor bonus. Casting Magic Vestment should then give a +5 armor enhancement bonus to your clothing. These should stack even if they are on separate items because they are separate categories. But I've not played pathfinder PnP so a rules lawyer may be able to point out where my logic is wrong here.

 

[Yosharian]

No they are not separate categories man like I said an enhancement bonus improves (or adds to) an existing bonus, it is NOT a separate bonus.

You don't get an armor bonus of 5 from the bracers and an enhancement bonus of 5 from the spell to make 10, you get two bonuses of 5 AC that don't stack

If you don't believe me Google it, you can find tons of questions about this and the answer is always 'no it doesn't work on bracers'

 

[NJClaw]

These should stack even if they are on separate items because they are separate categories

In PnP they would most definitely not stack. Adding an "armor enhancement bonus" to your clothing doesn't give you an "armor enhancement bonus" to your AC. It simply makes your clothing give you an armor bonus. Similarly, in PnP, the bonus from the spell isn't supposed to improve an already existing enhancement bonus, only the higher one would apply.

This is how it works in PnP, but in Kingmaker it has never been the case. The "armor" version has always stacked and the "shield" one has always been bugged.