Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Haplo]

Capping the Monk AC would probably be a good idea to keep people from self-nerfing. You can get enough AC with armor and buffs without gimping your class progression and burning feats.

There are scenarios where a Monk Dip isn't bad but it's way overused and it is definitely not the case that armorless is flat-out better. In fact often better to just go Large and just kill shit before it can even attack which takes AC out of the equation entirely. Likewise many of the most serious threats attack saves, not AC.

I nver said that stacking AC was the way to go, I just made the observation that it give way too much AC compared to any of the other option, and indeed often end up being a noob trap.

It's a lot of tangible immediate power at low levels, when the game is the hardest.

It might be overused but it's for a reason.

This. Building tempo and early benefits are crucial in actual gameplay, rather then theorycrafting benefits you may or may not get at level 20!

 

[Sarathiour]

Fair enough

 

[Grunker]

My playgroup used to call it Grunking when you made a build that only came online at a fictive level 15 we would never reach in the adventure we were playing

 

[Average Manatee]

Tried the same kind of test in Kingmaker and as far as I can tell they are all the same size.

I'm barely walking the gnome as few pixels as I can per turn and as far as I can tell all pets can pass him by at the same time.

At the same time pathfinding in pathfinder is sketchy as fuck to begin with so it's not impossible to rule out that the pets would work different if its enemies blocking you or some other weird situation. I know there are situations where the game just allows all your dudes to stand in the same area like its no big deal.

Can't see what exactly you were trying to show, but if its moving by your party member, then I think such a test is skewed. The game will usually (not always) let you pass trough spaces occupied by allies.
What is tricky is finding spots next to the enemy, once your allies are already close to him. But even then the game will sometimes allow it - like my example with wolf and leopard overlapping above.

I'm not showing anything specifically except for the setup. Every position my gnome takes there either all 4 pets can pass or none of the pets can pass. I was barely edging the gnome around by 1 pixel at a time and this seemed to hold.

 

[Haplo]

The problem is you're testing this with your character. While you should be testing engaged with enemies.

 

[Desiderius]

Oh, when I stopped needlessly splashing Monk my builds started coming online one level earlier the whole game, not just level 20.

Every single fight I was overleveled compared to the solo-ers. You guys still haven’t understood the point. And for what? So you could give up an item slot? Some dips and splashes there’s an argument but Monk is bottom 10%.

 

[Cael]

It is a bug, like how Owlcat implemented Sneak Attack, which made it uber-powerful. Exploiting it just to be viable proves that the difficulty of Bugmaker is fucked up and retarded. You might as well have level 1 characters fight a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and be done with it.

Sneak Attack characters aren't even all that powerful in Owlcats' PF, just confirms they are garbage in regular PF, like they are in 3.5 where everyone is immune.

It is what it has always been. Or supposed to be until Owlcat took a shit on it. I do recall a whole bunch of theorycrafted builds that was built around abusing sneak attack when the game first came out. Most of them came from our resident fanbois, all squealing "bestest thing evah!!!"

Be as it may, the central point of my post is still the same: If you have to abuse bugs or poorly implemented rules in order to "win", then the game is a honking piece of shit mechanics-wise. And Bugfinder: Bloatmaker is shit mechanics-wise at any difficulty that has anything above Normal for the simple reason the makers took the most retarded and most lazy way out. It is no different to giving the AI extra resources in AoE or free happy citizens in Civilization. It is nothing but laziness, and that kind of shit in never incline.

 

[Parabalus]

It is a bug, like how Owlcat implemented Sneak Attack, which made it uber-powerful. Exploiting it just to be viable proves that the difficulty of Bugmaker is fucked up and retarded. You might as well have level 1 characters fight a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and be done with it.

Sneak Attack characters aren't even all that powerful in Owlcats' PF, just confirms they are garbage in regular PF, like they are in 3.5 where everyone is immune.

It is what it has always been. Or supposed to be until Owlcat took a shit on it. I do recall a whole bunch of theorycrafted builds that was built around abusing sneak attack when the game first came out. Most of them came from our resident fanbois, all squealing "bestest thing evah!!!"

Be as it may, the central point of my post is still the same: If you have to abuse bugs or poorly implemented rules in order to "win", then the game is a honking piece of shit mechanics-wise. And Bugfinder: Bloatmaker is shit mechanics-wise at any difficulty that has anything above Normal for the simple reason the makers took the most retarded and most lazy way out. It is no different to giving the AI extra resources in AoE or free happy citizens in Civilization. It is nothing but laziness, and that kind of shit in never incline.

The problem is Sneak Attack characters are shafted in DnD & PF, Owlcat does something good against that.

The rules aren't poorly implemented, they changed garbage rules to better ones.

 

[Desiderius]

My playgroup used to call it Grunking when you made a build that only came online at a fictive level 15 we would never reach in the adventure we were playing

Once again you’ve entirely inverted my argument. An army of strawmen. The reason you stick to your class is to benefit from being overleveled the whole game starting with the level where I didn’t dip.

Yeah unlocking that keystone is fun when you do but unlocking the other 18 levels on time is the value.

 

[Desiderius]

It is a bug, like how Owlcat implemented Sneak Attack, which made it uber-powerful. Exploiting it just to be viable proves that the difficulty of Bugmaker is fucked up and retarded. You might as well have level 1 characters fight a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and be done with it.

Sneak Attack characters aren't even all that powerful in Owlcats' PF, just confirms they are garbage in regular PF, like they are in 3.5 where everyone is immune.

It is what it has always been. Or supposed to be until Owlcat took a shit on it. I do recall a whole bunch of theorycrafted builds that was built around abusing sneak attack when the game first came out. Most of them came from our resident fanbois, all squealing "bestest thing evah!!!"

Be as it may, the central point of my post is still the same: If you have to abuse bugs or poorly implemented rules in order to "win", then the game is a honking piece of shit mechanics-wise. And Bugfinder: Bloatmaker is shit mechanics-wise at any difficulty that has anything above Normal for the simple reason the makers took the most retarded and most lazy way out. It is no different to giving the AI extra resources in AoE or free happy citizens in Civilization. It is nothing but laziness, and that kind of shit in never incline.

False premise -> false conclusion. We’re back to the UU Pal again here aren’t we? And you guys call me autistic.

 

[Average Manatee]

The problem is you're testing this with your character. While you should be testing engaged with enemies.

I can't control enemies to position them accurately.

 

[Cael]

It is a bug, like how Owlcat implemented Sneak Attack, which made it uber-powerful. Exploiting it just to be viable proves that the difficulty of Bugmaker is fucked up and retarded. You might as well have level 1 characters fight a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and be done with it.

Sneak Attack characters aren't even all that powerful in Owlcats' PF, just confirms they are garbage in regular PF, like they are in 3.5 where everyone is immune.

It is what it has always been. Or supposed to be until Owlcat took a shit on it. I do recall a whole bunch of theorycrafted builds that was built around abusing sneak attack when the game first came out. Most of them came from our resident fanbois, all squealing "bestest thing evah!!!"

Be as it may, the central point of my post is still the same: If you have to abuse bugs or poorly implemented rules in order to "win", then the game is a honking piece of shit mechanics-wise. And Bugfinder: Bloatmaker is shit mechanics-wise at any difficulty that has anything above Normal for the simple reason the makers took the most retarded and most lazy way out. It is no different to giving the AI extra resources in AoE or free happy citizens in Civilization. It is nothing but laziness, and that kind of shit in never incline.

The problem is Sneak Attack characters are shafted in DnD & PF, Owlcat does something good against that.

The rules aren't poorly implemented, they changed garbage rules to better ones.

ADnD called. It said, "Fuck your pussy "It is too hard shit", you cunt! Bring back facings!"

 

[Grunker]

My playgroup used to call it Grunking when you made a build that only came online at a fictive level 15 we would never reach in the adventure we were playing

Once again you’ve entirely inverted my argument. An army of strawmen. The reason you stick to your class is to benefit from being overleveled the whole game starting with the level where I didn’t dip.

Yeah unlocking that keystone is fun when you do but unlocking the other 18 levels on time is the value.

Wat? I was making a random comment about my playgroup teasing me

 

[Desiderius]

My playgroup used to call it Grunking when you made a build that only came online at a fictive level 15 we would never reach in the adventure we were playing

Once again you’ve entirely inverted my argument. An army of strawmen. The reason you stick to your class is to benefit from being overleveled the whole game starting with the level where I didn’t dip.

Yeah unlocking that keystone is fun when you do but unlocking the other 18 levels on time is the value.

Wat? I was making a random comment about my playgroup teasing me

I know. But it wasn’t random. It was in response to Haplo’s comment about tempo.

 

[Average Manatee]

Oh, when I stopped needlessly splashing Monk my builds started coming online one level earlier the whole game, not just level 20.

Every single fight I was overleveled compared to the solo-ers. You guys still haven’t understood the point. And for what? So you could give up an item slot? Some dips and splashes there’s an argument but Monk is bottom 10%.

I am always really confused by builds taking monk at level 1 or 2. There's no way that's a good idea. Especially when I see it on classes like Sorcerer. You have to be fucking crazy to play for hours before getting level 2 spells like that in exchange for... still worse AC than anything that just wears armor. Taking Monk at mid levels like 10-15 is at least reasonable, by then everyone is decked out in +4/+6 stat equipment.

 

[Grunker]

My playgroup used to call it Grunking when you made a build that only came online at a fictive level 15 we would never reach in the adventure we were playing

Once again you’ve entirely inverted my argument. An army of strawmen. The reason you stick to your class is to benefit from being overleveled the whole game starting with the level where I didn’t dip.

Yeah unlocking that keystone is fun when you do but unlocking the other 18 levels on time is the value.

Wat? I was making a random comment about my playgroup teasing me

I know. It also wasn’t random. It was in response to Haplo’s comment about tempo.

Yes, but it was literally just a true reference to my D&D groups lol, had nothing to do with your discussions

 

[Parabalus]

Oh, when I stopped needlessly splashing Monk my builds started coming online one level earlier the whole game, not just level 20.

Every single fight I was overleveled compared to the solo-ers. You guys still haven’t understood the point. And for what? So you could give up an item slot? Some dips and splashes there’s an argument but Monk is bottom 10%.

I am always really confused by builds taking monk at level 1 or 2. There's no way that's a good idea. Especially when I see it on classes like Sorcerer. You have to be fucking crazy to play for hours before getting level 2 spells like that in exchange for... still worse AC than anything that just wears armor. Taking Monk at mid levels like 10-15 is at least reasonable, by then everyone is decked out in +4/+6 stat equipment.

If you can't beat enemy saves due to the difficulty buff they won't help much.

 

[Average Manatee]

If you can't beat enemy saves due to the difficulty buff they won't help much.

Improving trash AC to still trash AC helps less.

 

[Daidre]

I am always really confused by builds taking monk at level 1 or 2. There's no way that's a good idea. Especially when I see it on classes like Sorcerer. You have to be fucking crazy to play for hours before getting level 2 spells like that in exchange for... still worse AC than anything that just wears armor. Taking Monk at mid levels like 10-15 is at least reasonable, by then everyone is decked out in +4/+6 stat equipment.

I had character like that long time ago. Scaled Fist right after Sorc was taken for the second Quarterstaff attack from Flurry, it is two handed weapon and pretty good in the hands of 19 STR char, with father development into Dragon Disciple for more STR and extra bite and later into EK. Build hits lvl 8 spells too iirc.
CHA to AC was just a bonus.

 

[Haplo]

The reason you stick to your class is to benefit from being overleveled the whole game starting with the level where I didn’t dip.

Yeah unlocking that keystone is fun when you do but unlocking the other 18 levels on time is the value.

I'm actually not a big supporter of armorless combat. And I generally dislike the various 1 level Vivisectionist dips.
But there are builds/classes where dipping that 1 level in monk early does provide huge value.
A Sword Saint being one. As well as various Dex-based melees, particularly other maguses, who suffer spell failure in armor until later levels.
In Kingmaker if Lawful Good, that 1 monk level offers like +12-14 AC (actually +16-18, because it also offers "free" Crane Style, which makes Defensive Fighting worth using).
That's a rather huge swing.

In Wrath I dip Sohei all the time - to have a good building tempo and get fast Spirited Charge. Sometimes also to get extra attacks from Weapon Training Flurry.
Also I regularly take 3 Gendarme Order of the Cockatrice levels - for 3 feats (with Dazzling Display from Order in time for Shatter Defenses on 7 or 9), +2 AB vs Shaken enemies and +2 AB on Charge.

 

[Parabalus]

If you can't beat enemy saves due to the difficulty buff they won't help much.

Improving trash AC to still trash AC helps less.

Then why would you take monk if your AC is still trash?

People take it because it's +10 immediately at an early level.

 

[Average Manatee]

Then why would you take monk if your AC is still trash?

That's... what I'm asking. Even with 20 CHA sorcerer w/ shield and mage armor your AC is going to be worse than a fighter and getting mirror image would have protected you better anyway

People take it because it's +10 immediately at an early level.

It's +5. You could argue it's +7 w/ the level 2 stat buff spell active... which you're delaying by taking monk.

 

[Haplo]

Then why would you take monk if your AC is still trash?

That's... what I'm asking. Even with 20 CHA sorcerer w/ shield and mage armor your AC is going to be worse than a fighter and getting mirror image would have protected you better anyway

People take it because it's +10 immediately at an early level.

It's +5. You could argue it's +7 w/ the level 2 stat buff spell active... which you're delaying by taking monk.

I think few people pick monk early on a sorc or other dedicated caster build. Unless its a specialized gish build, like Dairdre's.
Its much more common for magi and the like.

 

[Parabalus]

It's +5. You could argue it's +7 w/ the level 2 stat buff spell active... which you're delaying by taking monk.

But you have a party to cast that, no?

Not sure you want to argue that solo players shouldn't take monk, it taken even more often there.

 

[Cael]

A fighter won't be able to get to AC 20 right at the start (at Oleg's, for example). A sorcerer with Mage Armour, Shield, Dex and 1 Monk level can easily get to 24.

Is it worth the 1 level? Personally, I don't think so. Your animal companion and other party members should be able to shield your caster from getting his ass ganked.

On the 5 animal companion run, level 5 was a big boost in party power when 3 of the companions got Boon Companion'd. Just got to level 7, and holy, mother of God, the party power boost is astronomical.