Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

The reason you stick to your class is to benefit from being overleveled the whole game starting with the level where I didn’t dip.

Yeah unlocking that keystone is fun when you do but unlocking the other 18 levels on time is the value.

I'm actually not a big supporter of armorless combat. And I generally dislike the various 1 level Vivisectionist dips.
But there are builds/classes where dipping that 1 level in monk early does provide huge value.
A Sword Saint being one. As well as various Dex-based melees, particularly other maguses, who suffer spell failure in armor until later levels.
In Kingmaker if Lawful Good, that 1 monk level offers like +12-14 AC (actually +16-18, because it also offers "free" Crane Style, which makes Defensive Fighting worth using).
That's a rather huge swing.

In Wrath I dip Sohei all the time - to have a good building tempo and get fast Spirited Charge. Sometimes also to get extra attacks from Weapon Training Flurry.
Also I regularly take 3 Gendarme Order of the Cockatrice levels - for 3 feats (with Dazzling Display from Order in time for Shatter Defenses on 7 or 9), +2 AB vs Shaken enemies and +2 AB on Charge.

I'd need the breakdown on that math. If you're already WIS/CHR-based it can be sort of worth it IF you have to tank early and IF you want to play Unfair the whole game but those are big ifs.

I think you and Daidre do more solo-style (though there you do still miss out on the capstone which is the only thing people usually think about, and it does matter more if you're turbo-leveling) which forces you to have to tank more in general since fights will last longer and gives you less options for letting a companion (or their pet) do the tanking before your own AC fully develops.

And yeah I'm not big on exploiting the Wing bug but wouldn't bother in most cases even if I were. AC just isn't a critical stat since you get enough already to survive almost anything and those things have other ways to attack them.

 

[Parabalus]

(though there you do still miss out on the capstone which is the only thing people usually think about, and it does matter more if you're turbo-leveling)

If you want the capstone you can just respec when lvl 20 tho.

 

[Desiderius]

Let me walk you through an example of the opportunity cost.

In late alpha/early beta of Wrath a PnPer came on the forums apoplectic that he was getting owned by Maugla at lvl 8 on Core difficulty. I carefully walked him through all the ways to make the fight not just manageable but trivial on Core. He'd look at a screenshot and ask "wait, how did you get -4 AC on Hampering Hex?" and I'd say well it kicks up to -4 at lvl 8 on Cam and he'd come back incredulously with "you mean you don't do the no-brainer Vivi splash? are you a newb?" We did this same routine for literally 7 separate abilities across the companions and he was still convinced that I didn't know what I was doing and that the designers had made the game way too hard.

And this sort of thing starts showing up as early as level two on some classes and continues to snowball throughout the game. One Demoralize is +2 AC for your whole team. There are many different ways to skin the same cat.

 

[Yosharian]

Who splashes Vivi on fucking Spirit Hunter, wtf

 

[Average Manatee]

This is what happens when you call a splash a no brainer and people with no brain actually read your post.

Somewhere out there, someone does vivi 1/scaled fist 1/pal 2/sorc 1/dragon disciple 4 because everyone knows these dips are no brainers.

 

[Desiderius]

Who splashes Vivi on fucking Spirit Hunter, wtf

Haven't read InEffect lately but it's the sort of thing he'd do. Sneak + 4 DEX + 2 Natural AC

With DEX to damage it doesn't look awful (The +2 AC is duplicated by Iceplant but Spirit Hunter is short on Hexes...) if you don't understand the opportunity cost.

Vivi Splash is probably highest value on DEX-based melee if you're going to use it anywhere.

Somewhere out there, someone does vivi 1/scaled fist 1/pal 2/sorc 1/dragon disciple 4 because everyone knows these dips are no brainers.

 

[Average Manatee]

Delaying spell progression on full casters in general is something that should always be considered pretty critically. Vivi works for melee because the stat gains more than counteract the BAB loss.

I feel like 1d6 sneak attack is kind of the most overrated thing ever. It's easy to think "wow, that's doubling my base weapon damage", except that base weapon damage is irrelevant anyway past like level 2 and sneak attack suffers from either not working or very often getting nullified by damage reduction. If your build isn't going to get close to 10d6 sneak attack then just picking up 1d6 sneak attack is fairly meaningless.

Also I think the popularity of vivi dips somewhat distracts people from the fact that a full 20 levels of vivi is one of the strongest builds around.

 

[Desiderius]

base weapon damage is irrelevant anyway past like level 2

Learn the way of the Haplo, young padawan.

a full 20 levels of vivi is one of the strongest builds around

It's surprisingly fragile on D and one-dimensional on O but the utility is unique if you don't have another Alchemist, which is kind of the opposite of the way it's usually portrayed. The most important thing is the utility.

 

[Average Manatee]

base weapon damage is irrelevant anyway past like level 2

Learn the way of the Haplo, young padawan.

If you're talking about stuff like damage multipliers and size increases, those are fine. I'm just talking about the significance of a single 1d6.

a full 20 levels of vivi is one of the strongest builds around

It's surprisingly fragile on D and one-dimensional on O but the utility is unique if you don't have another Alchemist, which is kind of the opposite of the way it's usually portrayed. The most important thing is the utility.

Disagree heavily. It's almost impossible to make a weak melee character with true mutagen, full sneak attack progression and all of those combat tricks you'll get, whether you go for a strength or dex build. Now granted it's certainly not optimal to take it to level 20 (e.g. it'd be criminally stupid not to take 3 levels of rogue for TWF finesse if you're going dex), but as a pure class build compared to other level 20 pure class builds its very solid.

 

[Desiderius]

No, if you’re going to play full Vivi going to 20 is pretty solid since you finally unlock some good spells at lvl 16 and want as many slots as you can get and Grand Discoveries are pretty cool. Of course you continue building Sneaks as well as Advanced Rogue Talents and 18-20 are full BAB.

Splashing Rogue for DEX-to-damage at the end makes no sense since you’d need that up front on DEX-based. R4/ViviX is ok but you’ve already got slow spell progression. If you recognize your main value is utility (it is), I think that locks you in to Vivi12 for full Barkskins. If you want DEX-based you can pick up Finesse as a Feat/Rogue Talent since you’ve got plenty.

Mutagens are nice of course but they’re the only thing helping you and you’re still 3/4. Compare to Inq that gets Judgements, Bane, and Divine Favor/Power. Mutagen itself is only +2/+2 until level 12 and the malus isn’t trivial.

Depending on party make-up you can be a reasonable damage dealer but you’ll always be something of a glass cannon with Light Armor and no Image or Uncanny Dodge. You have one ability (Mutagens) that helps you on offense and none on defense (other than the Natural Armor on Mutagen), which is sub-par.

 

[Cael]

A fighter won't be able to get to AC 20 right at the start (at Oleg's, for example). A sorcerer with Mage Armour, Shield, Dex and 1 Monk level can easily get to 24.

Valerie starts the game with 23 AC and that's with no buffs and wearing banded mail. 28-30ish AC should be possible either at oleg's or shortly after. If we're counting fighting defensively then add another 3 to that.

Fighting defensively with a Monk with Crane Wing makes the difference higher. And you are at +1 to-hit with a Monk due to the tower shield. Of course, I was using 16 stats in Dex and Cha when it should really be at least 16/18, if not 18/18, due to bonus stat(s). Although how a single-class fighter with 13 Dex can get 30AC at level 2 is rather perplexing. What does she get that a Sorc/Monk cannot get?

 

[Desiderius]

Armor

 

[Average Manatee]

A fighter won't be able to get to AC 20 right at the start (at Oleg's, for example). A sorcerer with Mage Armour, Shield, Dex and 1 Monk level can easily get to 24.

Valerie starts the game with 23 AC and that's with no buffs and wearing banded mail. 28-30ish AC should be possible either at oleg's or shortly after. If we're counting fighting defensively then add another 3 to that.

Fighting defensively with a Monk with Crane Wing makes the difference higher. And you are at +1 to-hit with a Monk due to the tower shield. Of course, I was using 16 stats in Dex and Cha when it should really be at least 16/18, if not 18/18, due to bonus stat(s). Although how a single-class fighter with 13 Dex can get 30AC at level 2 is rather perplexing. What does she get that a Sorc/Monk cannot get?

Valerie starting at 23 AC w/ banded mail (7 armor) and tower shield (4 shield AC)
+2 for upgrading to full plate
+1 ring of protection
+1 natural armor amulet
+2 shield wall w/ ally level 2 feat

Gives you 29 AC and should be available pretty quickly after oleg's (can't remember if these are all purchasable there or if you have enough money at the beginning). If you want to tryhard and avoid needing shield wall then you can go vivisectionist for +2 from the mutagen along with +1 from Reduce Person I guess.

 

[Cael]

A fighter won't be able to get to AC 20 right at the start (at Oleg's, for example). A sorcerer with Mage Armour, Shield, Dex and 1 Monk level can easily get to 24.

Valerie starts the game with 23 AC and that's with no buffs and wearing banded mail. 28-30ish AC should be possible either at oleg's or shortly after. If we're counting fighting defensively then add another 3 to that.

Fighting defensively with a Monk with Crane Wing makes the difference higher. And you are at +1 to-hit with a Monk due to the tower shield. Of course, I was using 16 stats in Dex and Cha when it should really be at least 16/18, if not 18/18, due to bonus stat(s). Although how a single-class fighter with 13 Dex can get 30AC at level 2 is rather perplexing. What does she get that a Sorc/Monk cannot get?

Valerie starting at 23 AC w/ banded mail (7 armor) and tower shield (4 shield AC)
+2 for upgrading to full plate
+1 ring of protection
+1 natural armor amulet
+2 shield wall w/ ally level 2 feat

Gives you 29 AC and should be available pretty quickly after oleg's (can't remember if these are all purchasable there or if you have enough money at the beginning). If you want to tryhard and avoid needing shield wall then you can go vivisectionist for +2 from the mutagen along with +1 from Reduce Person I guess.

So, a Sorc/Monk with Crane Style can't do the following?

Mage Armour (+4)
Shield (+4)
Dex (+4)
Cha (+4)
Ring (+1)
Amulet (+1)
Defensive (+3)

Total: 31 AC

And you don't need an ally, and you don't need to buy more stuff than you have money for when you get to Oleg's. Realistically, Valerie will have the Banded Mail, Tower Shield and maybe the ring if you burn everything (you get to Oleg's with about 1k gold if you sold just about everything you get in the mansion) on her. That is unrealistic and a fucking retarded way to prove a point. The Sorc/Mage can get to 30AC without breaking a sweat, expending feats, requiring an ally to be standing right next to her or spending more money than the entire party has. "A fighter can be just as good, if you give her the perfect set up at all times!"

 

[Average Manatee]

And you don't need an ally, and you don't need to buy more stuff than you have money for when you get to Oleg's. Realistically, Valerie will have the Banded Mail, Tower Shield and maybe the ring if you burn everything (you get to Oleg's with about 1k gold if you sold just about everything you get in the mansion) on her. That is unrealistic and a fucking retarded way to prove a point. The Sorc/Mage can get to 30AC without breaking a sweat, expending feats, requiring an ally to be standing right next to her or spending more money than the entire party has. "A fighter can be just as good, if you give her the perfect set up at all times!"

A sorc/mage PC that does literally nothing except tank and wastes a whole level of spell progression vs. an unoptimized fighter NPC you have to take that can still hit things. Why is this even a discussion when the latter is obviously better?

Also curious that Valerie will "maybe have the ring" yet your PC can come up with money for both the ring and amulet.

Valerie will also scale better with future feats and equipment.

 

[Cael]

And you don't need an ally, and you don't need to buy more stuff than you have money for when you get to Oleg's. Realistically, Valerie will have the Banded Mail, Tower Shield and maybe the ring if you burn everything (you get to Oleg's with about 1k gold if you sold just about everything you get in the mansion) on her. That is unrealistic and a fucking retarded way to prove a point. The Sorc/Mage can get to 30AC without breaking a sweat, expending feats, requiring an ally to be standing right next to her or spending more money than the entire party has. "A fighter can be just as good, if you give her the perfect set up at all times!"

A sorc/mage PC that does literally nothing except tank and wastes a whole level of spell progression vs. an unoptimized fighter NPC you have to take that can still hit things. Why is this even a discussion when the latter is obviously better?

I am not disputing that. I actually pointed out in my initial post that it is NOT worth the trade off. I did, however, concede that the Sorc/Monk is better as a tank at that point in time, which you disputed vehemently.

YOU have been desperate to show that a Fighter can out AC a Monk, which is fucking rubbish, unless you are willing to blow everything on the one Fighter in order to make it somewhat close.

 

[Average Manatee]

I am not disputing that. I actually pointed out in my initial post that it is NOT worth the trade off. I did, however, concede that the Sorc/Monk is better as a tank at that point in time, which you disputed vehemently.

YOU have been desperate to show that a Fighter can out AC a Monk, which is fucking rubbish, unless you are willing to blow everything on the one Fighter in order to make it somewhat close.

If you do the math I showed that Valerie could reach a theoretical 33 AC vs. your 31.

You are devoting 100% of your spell slots and levels to maximizing your AC, pray tell me how you aren't blowing everything on your PC? Plus a fully customizable PC slot is more valuable than an NPC slot after all. And unless you are going to rest constantly for every single map your effective AC will be even lower than calculated due to buffs not being permanent.

 

[Desiderius]

I am not disputing that. I actually pointed out in my initial post that it is NOT worth the trade off. I did, however, concede that the Sorc/Monk is better as a tank at that point in time, which you disputed vehemently.

YOU have been desperate to show that a Fighter can out AC a Monk, which is fucking rubbish, unless you are willing to blow everything on the one Fighter in order to make it somewhat close.

If you do the math I showed that Valerie could reach a theoretical 33 AC vs. your 31.

You are devoting 100% of your spell slots and levels to maximizing your AC, pray tell me how you aren't blowing everything on your PC? Plus a fully customizable PC slot is more valuable than an NPC slot after all. And unless you are going to rest constantly for every single map your effective AC will be even lower than calculated due to buffs not being permanent.

Let it go. For some reason Cael likes to show his ass on such matters. Some kind of weird fetish.

 

[Cael]

I am not disputing that. I actually pointed out in my initial post that it is NOT worth the trade off. I did, however, concede that the Sorc/Monk is better as a tank at that point in time, which you disputed vehemently.

YOU have been desperate to show that a Fighter can out AC a Monk, which is fucking rubbish, unless you are willing to blow everything on the one Fighter in order to make it somewhat close.

If you do the math I showed that Valerie could reach a theoretical 33 AC vs. your 31.

You are devoting 100% of your spell slots and levels to maximizing your AC, pray tell me how you aren't blowing everything on your PC? Plus a fully customizable PC slot is more valuable than an NPC slot after all. And unless you are going to rest constantly for every single map your effective AC will be even lower than calculated due to buffs not being permanent.

You are retarded, aren't you? If you are going to tank, then a Sorc/Monk with Mage Armour and Shield is the way to go early, because you will eventually want both spells on the Sorcerer anyway. That is just standard practice (plus there isn't that many other great level 1 spells in the game). If you are going to be tanking, the early levels is where you don't need many options because the BAB difference isn't that great yet. And 1d4+1 a few times a day isn't going to make much of a difference, and Linzi should have the Grease spell by level 2. Getting there without taking up the entire party's resources means the Sorc/Monk comes out on top. Read the bolded and underlined part. It is fucking important, you imbecile.

Also read this part, you fucking retard: I don't believe that the monk level is worth the spell level trade-off. I already said it twice. This is the third time, you unutterably dense piece of coprolite.

All I said was that at that point in time, the lone Sorc/Monk's AC is better than the lone Fighter's. You might not like it, but that is the truth. That means, you fuckhead, no teamwork feats, no blowing every single cent on the fighter, and all that. It also means you don't get to spend gold YOU DON'T HAVE. How are you buying the full platemail +1 with 1k gold when you just got to Oleg's?

Theorycrafting without limits is fine, but has no place in reality.

 

[Haplo]

The reason you stick to your class is to benefit from being overleveled the whole game starting with the level where I didn’t dip.

Yeah unlocking that keystone is fun when you do but unlocking the other 18 levels on time is the value.

I'm actually not a big supporter of armorless combat. And I generally dislike the various 1 level Vivisectionist dips.
But there are builds/classes where dipping that 1 level in monk early does provide huge value.
A Sword Saint being one. As well as various Dex-based melees, particularly other maguses, who suffer spell failure in armor until later levels.
In Kingmaker if Lawful Good, that 1 monk level offers like +12-14 AC (actually +16-18, because it also offers "free" Crane Style, which makes Defensive Fighting worth using).
That's a rather huge swing.

In Wrath I dip Sohei all the time - to have a good building tempo and get fast Spirited Charge. Sometimes also to get extra attacks from Weapon Training Flurry.
Also I regularly take 3 Gendarme Order of the Cockatrice levels - for 3 feats (with Dazzling Display from Order in time for Shatter Defenses on 7 or 9), +2 AB vs Shaken enemies and +2 AB on Charge.

I'd need the breakdown on that math. If you're already WIS/CHR-based it can be sort of worth it IF you have to tank early and IF you want to play Unfair the whole game but those are big ifs.

I think you and Daidre do more solo-style (though there you do still miss out on the capstone which is the only thing people usually think about, and it does matter more if you're turbo-leveling) which forces you to have to tank more in general since fights will last longer and gives you less options for letting a companion (or their pet) do the tanking before your own AC fully develops.

And yeah I'm not big on exploiting the Wing bug but wouldn't bother in most cases even if I were. AC just isn't a critical stat since you get enough already to survive almost anything and those things have other ways to attack them.

I mentioned Lawful Good because of Protector's Robes: 5 AC + up to +9 Wis/Cha mod (+3 start, +4 headband, +1 Elixir, +1 Ring of Circumstances), then you also get "free" Crane Style to enable +4 AC when Fighting Defensively with 3 Mobility (I normally skipped Dodge and Wing).
Its a bit less if you don't have enough Dex to match a Fullplate - but with Bracers +8, you need +8 Dex mod to match a +5 mithrall plate, which isn't a lot. Or 14 Dex + Elixir + Belt.

I don't actually play solo. I like the party buffs/debuffs (like Dazzling/Demoralize+Shatter, Haste, Heroisms, Freebooter's Bond+Bane, Evil Eye, Metal Curse, Hampering Hex, Protective, etc.) and the occassional CC too much for that. Also I'm not too keen on some building rigors that'd force. And I don't have the patience to play on Unfair much.

I'll admit I do like my main char to be the star of the show, though

 

[Cael]

The reason you stick to your class is to benefit from being overleveled the whole game starting with the level where I didn’t dip.

Yeah unlocking that keystone is fun when you do but unlocking the other 18 levels on time is the value.

I'm actually not a big supporter of armorless combat. And I generally dislike the various 1 level Vivisectionist dips.
But there are builds/classes where dipping that 1 level in monk early does provide huge value.
A Sword Saint being one. As well as various Dex-based melees, particularly other maguses, who suffer spell failure in armor until later levels.
In Kingmaker if Lawful Good, that 1 monk level offers like +12-14 AC (actually +16-18, because it also offers "free" Crane Style, which makes Defensive Fighting worth using).
That's a rather huge swing.

In Wrath I dip Sohei all the time - to have a good building tempo and get fast Spirited Charge. Sometimes also to get extra attacks from Weapon Training Flurry.
Also I regularly take 3 Gendarme Order of the Cockatrice levels - for 3 feats (with Dazzling Display from Order in time for Shatter Defenses on 7 or 9), +2 AB vs Shaken enemies and +2 AB on Charge.

I'd need the breakdown on that math. If you're already WIS/CHR-based it can be sort of worth it IF you have to tank early and IF you want to play Unfair the whole game but those are big ifs.

I think you and Daidre do more solo-style (though there you do still miss out on the capstone which is the only thing people usually think about, and it does matter more if you're turbo-leveling) which forces you to have to tank more in general since fights will last longer and gives you less options for letting a companion (or their pet) do the tanking before your own AC fully develops.

And yeah I'm not big on exploiting the Wing bug but wouldn't bother in most cases even if I were. AC just isn't a critical stat since you get enough already to survive almost anything and those things have other ways to attack them.

I mentioned Lawful Good because of Protector's Robes: 5 AC + up to +9 Wis/Cha mod (+3 start, +4 headband, +1 Elixir, +1 Ring of Circumstances), then you also get "free" Crane Style to enable +4 AC when Fighting Defensively with 3 Mobility (I normally skipped Dodge and Wing).
Its a bit less if you don't have enough Dex to match a Fullplate - but with Bracers +8, you need +8 Dex mod to match a +5 mithrall plate, which isn't a lot. Or 14 Dex + Elixir + Belt.

I don't actually play solo. I like the party buffs/debuffs (like Dazzling/Demoralize+Shatter, Haste, Heroisms, Freebooter's Bond+Bane, Evil Eye, Metal Curse, Hampering Hex, Protective, etc.) and the occassional CC too much for that. Also I'm not too keen on some building rigors that'd force. And I don't have the patience to play on Unfair much.

I'll admit I do like my main char to be the star of the show, though

The Cha/Wis mod would get much higher because one would presume that you are smart enough to use a Monk splash only on classes with those as primary.

I believe 2 levels of Sensei is not a bad idea for Druids as they get a Wis-to-hit and also the standard Wis-to-AC, making it a very SAD wildshape meleer. Not 100% sure if it gets to tank status. I haven't actually done the sums for it for Bloatmaker. However, in NWN, the highest possible AC is actually a Monk 1/Druid 19.

 

[Haplo]

The Cha/Wis mod would get much higher because one would presume that you are smart enough to use a Monk splash only on classes with those as primary.

Not really. Its a fine idea for maguses for example. Particularly Sword Saints.

 

[Cael]

The Cha/Wis mod would get much higher because one would presume that you are smart enough to use a Monk splash only on classes with those as primary.

Not really. Its a fine idea for maguses for example. Particularly Sword Saints.

Wouldn't it synergise better with Scion?

 

[Haplo]

The Cha/Wis mod would get much higher because one would presume that you are smart enough to use a Monk splash only on classes with those as primary.

Not really. Its a fine idea for maguses for example. Particularly Sword Saints.

Wouldn't it synergise better with Scion?

Don't think so? A Scion CAN wear some armor after all. Eventually even heavy. And most aren't spell DC focused.
If you want to build an outlier DC Scion, then sure.
But yeah, Scions also tend to take the dip I guess - particularly Dex ones.

 

[Cael]

Most of the higher end AC builds I have seen relies on no armour. I suppose a TSS can get the same ridiculous AC with armour on thanks to their souped-up armour training, but that seems to be the only class that can do that in armour?

Would Sensei be a good Bard replacement? You get the two basic bard songs but that Mass Restoration with no spell component, and a bunch of Mass buffs seems to make up for it. The ones that the Sensei can't handle, your arcane caster can.