Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Average Manatee]

Ahh yes, I see that here: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Enhancement-Bonus

It's just not implemented this way in Kingmaker and enhancement bonuses is its own category.

 

[Grunker]

Nah man you're not getting it, let's say I'm wearing bracers +5, and clothing, and I cast a level 20 magic vestment spell on myself - I get zero improvement to my AC, because the spell only works on my clothing, boosting it to a 5 AC. So I end up with two items that grant the same 5 AC bonus, which don't stack

From what I can tell it *should* stack in PnP.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracers-of-armor/
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-vestment/

This says that Bracers +5 should give a +5 armor bonus. Casting Magic Vestment should then give a +5 armor enhancement bonus to your clothing. These should stack even if they are on separate items because they are separate categories. But I've not played pathfinder PnP so a rules lawyer may be able to point out where my logic is wrong here.

Here's how you should think about it:

Magic Vestment gives an Enhancement bonus of +5.

A full plate has a base AC of 8 so with the +5 that's 13.

A full plate +3 has a base AC of 8 so with the +5 that's still 13, because Enhancement bonuses don't stack.

Clothes have a base AC of 0 so with the +5 that's 5.

Bracers of Armor +5 have a base AC of 0 and an Enhancement bonus of +5, so with another +5 that's still just +5 (again, Enhancement bonuses don't stack).

enhancement bonuses is its own category.

Could be argued it's the most basic bonus category of them all

 

[Average Manatee]

Yes, the tricky part is that a bracers of armor +5 and clothes enchanted with magic vestment +5 both give a +5 armor bonus which doesn't stack, despite the fact that if it were the same item it would stack because it would be +5 armor +5 enchantment.

 

[Grunker]

Yes, the tricky part is that a bracers of armor +5 and clothes enchanted with magic vestment +5 both give a +5 armor bonus which doesn't stack, despite the fact that if it were the same item it would stack because it would be +5 armor +5 enchantment.

Bracers of Armor don't stack with a Full Plate either for exactly the same reason, so not so tricky

EDIT: But I guess I kinddaaaaa see your point, even if I never considered it a question myself

 

[Average Manatee]

Well in that case it's obvious they don't stack because the bracers and full plate would both be base armor bonuses. The tricky part is where one is an armor bonus and another is an armor enhancement bonus.

 

[Grunker]

Well in that case it's obvious they don't stack because the bracers and full plate would both be base armor bonuses. The tricky part is where one is an armor bonus and another is an armor enhancement bonus.

No, that's exactly my point:

Bracers of Armor +5 have a base AC of 0 and an Enhancement bonus of +5

Also see my edit.

 

[Sarathiour]

In Kingmaker, bracer of armor +8 and a monk dip is already going to beat any kind of AC for basically no downside, allowing to slap another +5 would be overkill;

 

[Yosharian]

Sarathiour you rated my post disagree? which part exactly do you disagree with?

Nah, that's how it works in Pathfinder. In Wrath it just gives you an additional +5 that's completely separate from other bonuses. You have to be carrying a shield to be able to benefit from the shield one though.

In Kingmaker.. well I was sure that the armor one worked the same as Wrath but I need to test it now

As for bracers, Magic Vestment categorically does not work on them by RAW. Which is annoying as hell.

 

[Yosharian]

In Kingmaker, bracer of armor +8 and a monk dip is already going to beat any kind of AC for basically no downside, allowing to slap another +5 would be overkill;

But you can slap on another +5, in Kingmaker?

Spoiler

What we are arguing about is how the rules are interpreted in PNP, maybe you got confused.

 

[Sarathiour]

All right then, thought that as per PnP, you could not get both.

Never really tried those monk dip in Kingmaker, felt too gamey and give you too much of an edge compared to the other option. I don't know why they did not did the same thing for monk as for a SS, meaning +1AC max per level.

 

[Average Manatee]

Leopard for the win!

There is a very nice size comparison guide on Steam https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2594856263, so smallest pet are Horse and Wolf, not even a Leopard. It is for the Wrath, but I do not think old pets changed since Kingmaker.

Doesn't seem to be accurate for Kingmaker.

(black line is same length for each pet)

If selection circle is indeed what determines body blocking then I'm guessing all Kingmaker pets are the same. Wolf definitely looks way bigger though, maybe Owlcat decided it needed to be shrunk in Wrath and in addition to shrinking the model they shrunk the selection circle at the same time by accident.

Good to know that the whole "leopard is the best because it won't block you" thing is false. Was gonna go for a 4 pet build to speed through Varnhold's Lot, guess I'll be hitting up the smilomeme.

 

[mediocrepoet]

This is probably the RPG banter that I found most funny and relatable.

 

[Haplo]

So, I've checked this and.. the selection circle does appear to be the same size.

BUT the models are definately not the same size (also Steam Guide AC size comparison info seems wrong/outdated):

More importantly, the pets DO occupy a different amount of space. There was no way to fit the wolf between these 2 Babaus and 2 Crusaders:

Leopard on the other hand aced the test:

 

[Average Manatee]

Tried the same kind of test in Kingmaker and as far as I can tell they are all the same size.

I'm barely walking the gnome as few pixels as I can per turn and as far as I can tell all pets can pass him by at the same time.

At the same time pathfinding in pathfinder is sketchy as fuck to begin with so it's not impossible to rule out that the pets would work different if its enemies blocking you or some other weird situation. I know there are situations where the game just allows all your dudes to stand in the same area like its no big deal.

 

[Daidre]

Sometimes I have a horrible suspicion that pathfinding is not the same even between TB vs RTwP, especially in Wrath where amount of TB specific movement bugs and bugfixes was piling over the months like crazy. For example, that impassable door bug from latest patches.
Please, don't ask for proofs...(

And pathfinding is indeed supposed to work differently in cases when you cross the space taken up by some creature:

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without Penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.

Ending Your Movement: You can't end your Movement in the same square as another Creature unless it is helpless.

And from what I saw, Owlcat tried to implement those rules, but the whole thing is beyond messed up. Plus, there is no restrictions outside the combat, but when combat starts and everyone in the same space they get stuck.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah I have the same feeling about pathfinding having some alternate set of rules depending on a bunch of circumstances. Still, if at least in one circumstance the pets seem to have the same footprint then hopefully the same holds for other circumstances.

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without Penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.

Ending Your Movement: You can't end your Movement in the same square as another Creature unless it is helpless.

Yeah I'm 100% certain that these aren't implemented properly. Certain enemies will happily charge straight through your frontline, and they'll be eating AoOs along the way so you know it's not some kind of issue where your characters are registering as helpless due to initiative or something. And you clearly can't just move through squares occupied by friendlies or else in my test above it wouldn't have mattered where the gnome was, all pets should have always been able to path through him to the other side as long as an enemy wasn't in the way.

And from what I saw, Owlcat tried to implement those rules, but the whole thing is beyond messed up. Plus, there is no restrictions outside the combat, but when combat starts and everyone in the same space they get stuck.

Even this is not always true. Sometimes they can move together ontop of each other in a blob. Already happened a few times with 4 pets that can spend the whole battle as a single 20-APR deathball in RT. I think it only really works with pets though because you need multiple models with the exact same movement characteristics to stack perfectly and not push each other aside.

 

[Desiderius]

Capping the Monk AC would probably be a good idea to keep people from self-nerfing. You can get enough AC with armor and buffs without gimping your class progression and burning feats.

There are scenarios where a Monk Dip isn't bad but it's way overused and it is definitely not the case that armorless is flat-out better. In fact often better to just go Large and just kill shit before it can even attack which takes AC out of the equation entirely. Likewise many of the most serious threats attack saves, not AC.

 

[Cael]

EDIT: It seems w/ shields it sets the enhancement to +1 to +5, but with armor it always stacks with everything. I'm assuming its a bug and should be setting enhancement bonus for armor the same way. Also the armor version works on pets which makes no sense, but hey, even more stupidly powerful pet build things to spam. Game should be called Petfinder: Good boy maker.

Are you sure? In Wrath it definitely adds a +1-5 bonus on top of your shield bonus.

Testing it now and it definitely doesn't for Kingmaker. It also doesn't set the enhancement bonus like I said (which would at least be decent), unfortunately it seems to set the total shield bonus. So if Valerie has a +1 AC buckler, a level 16 cleric casting magical vestments will add +3 AC to make it +4 AC total. However if Valerie has an unenchanted tower shield (+4 AC), then the same level 16 cleric casting magical vestments does nothing. In other words it's basically the same as the level 1 mage shield spell, except that you have to hold a shield to have it on you in the first place which kind of defeats the purpose. After all even bucklers will reach +4/+5 AC before your cleric reaches level 16/20.

Spoiler

Magical Vestment, Shield replacing the shield bonus when shield is <5 AC.

Spoiler

Magical Vestment, shield doing nothing if the shield is stronger than it.

Magical Vestment, Armor does stack with everything because it registers as an armor enhancement bonus. Someone with autistic knowledge of pathfinder AC categories and stacking can tell me if that's correct. It seems to me that both are wrong and the effect of Magical Vestments should be to upgrade an equipped armor or shield to +1 to +5 magical enhancement. This would require both armor and shields to have separate armor/shield and armor/shield enhancement bonuses. So e.g. rather than this mithril full plate +2 being +11 armor, it'd be +9 armor +2 armor enhancement and magical vestments would upgrade it to be +9 armor +5 armor enhancement.

It is wrong. Armour to AC has two components (base + enhancement) but make up 1 category: Armour to AC.

Therefore, you can have the following:
Chainmail: +5AC
Chainmail +1: +6AC
Chainmail +4: +9AC
Chainmail +1 with +3 Vestments on it: +8 AC (the enhancement part doesn't stack)

The enhancement part is not a separate category by itself. You can technically wear a leather +2 and a chainmail +1, but you get +6AC, not +7.

It is a bug, like how Owlcat implemented Sneak Attack, which made it uber-powerful. Exploiting it just to be viable proves that the difficulty of Bugmaker is fucked up and retarded. You might as well have level 1 characters fight a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and be done with it.

 

[Desiderius]

Owlcat's Sneak Attack isn't super powerful. It's solid for classes that could use the boost but at times its unreliable and its readily outclassed by other options on martials.

As I said Cael, be happy to run you through all the ways to be plenty viable without any of the tricks you've convinced yourself you need. They're not even that good let alone necessary.

Don't settle for these InEffective level takes.

 

[Parabalus]

It is a bug, like how Owlcat implemented Sneak Attack, which made it uber-powerful. Exploiting it just to be viable proves that the difficulty of Bugmaker is fucked up and retarded. You might as well have level 1 characters fight a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and be done with it.

Sneak Attack characters aren't even all that powerful in Owlcats' PF, just confirms they are garbage in regular PF, like they are in 3.5 where everyone is immune.

 

[Haplo]

Yeah I have the same feeling about pathfinding having some alternate set of rules depending on a bunch of circumstances. Still, if at least in one circumstance the pets seem to have the same footprint then hopefully the same holds for other circumstances.

Well I can't say about Kingmaker, but my testing in Wrath clearly shows that this is NOT the case there.
Different pet sizes DO need different amount of "map" space.

And it's not that difficult to verify: find some crowded engagement and in turn-based mode hold Ctrl to see possible stopping destinations. They will be far more limited for a large or bigger pet.

 

[Haplo]

Tried the same kind of test in Kingmaker and as far as I can tell they are all the same size.

I'm barely walking the gnome as few pixels as I can per turn and as far as I can tell all pets can pass him by at the same time.

At the same time pathfinding in pathfinder is sketchy as fuck to begin with so it's not impossible to rule out that the pets would work different if its enemies blocking you or some other weird situation. I know there are situations where the game just allows all your dudes to stand in the same area like its no big deal.

Can't see what exactly you were trying to show, but if its moving by your party member, then I think such a test is skewed. The game will usually (not always) let you pass trough spaces occupied by allies.
What is tricky is finding spots next to the enemy, once your allies are already close to him. But even then the game will sometimes allow it - like my example with wolf and leopard overlapping above.

 

[Yosharian]

Sometimes I have a horrible suspicion that pathfinding is not the same even between TB vs RTwP, especially in Wrath where amount of TB specific movement bugs and bugfixes was piling over the months like crazy. For example, that impassable door bug from latest patches.
Please, don't ask for proofs...(

And pathfinding is indeed supposed to work differently in cases when you cross the space taken up by some creature:

Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover.

Opponent: You can't move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without Penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.

Ending Your Movement: You can't end your Movement in the same square as another Creature unless it is helpless.

And from what I saw, Owlcat tried to implement those rules, but the whole thing is beyond messed up. Plus, there is no restrictions outside the combat, but when combat starts and everyone in the same space they get stuck.

It's definitely not the same in KM, I have had enemies trying to charge in TB and they just sit there and do nothing

Obviously it works in RTWP but glitches in TB

Only happens in certain areas I think

 

[Sarathiour]

Capping the Monk AC would probably be a good idea to keep people from self-nerfing. You can get enough AC with armor and buffs without gimping your class progression and burning feats.

There are scenarios where a Monk Dip isn't bad but it's way overused and it is definitely not the case that armorless is flat-out better. In fact often better to just go Large and just kill shit before it can even attack which takes AC out of the equation entirely. Likewise many of the most serious threats attack saves, not AC.

I nver said that stacking AC was the way to go, I just made the observation that it give way too much AC compared to any of the other option, and indeed often end up being a noob trap.

 

[Parabalus]

Capping the Monk AC would probably be a good idea to keep people from self-nerfing. You can get enough AC with armor and buffs without gimping your class progression and burning feats.

There are scenarios where a Monk Dip isn't bad but it's way overused and it is definitely not the case that armorless is flat-out better. In fact often better to just go Large and just kill shit before it can even attack which takes AC out of the equation entirely. Likewise many of the most serious threats attack saves, not AC.

I nver said that stacking AC was the way to go, I just made the observation that it give way too much AC compared to any of the other option, and indeed often end up being a noob trap.

It's a lot of tangible immediate power at low levels, when the game is the hardest.

It might be overused but it's for a reason.