Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Cael]

Most of the higher end AC builds I have seen relies on no armour. I suppose a TSS can get the same ridiculous AC with armour on thanks to their souped-up armour training, but that seems to be the only class that can do that in armour?

Would Sensei be a good Bard replacement? You get the two basic bard songs but that Mass Restoration with no spell component, and a bunch of Mass buffs seems to make up for it. The ones that the Sensei can't handle, your arcane caster can.

 

[Average Manatee]

It really depends on how much AC you consider "enough". IMO around 50 is fine, but there's certainly rare bosses and out of place overlevelled and statted monsters for which an AC in the 60s helps. It's up to the player whether being fine for 95% of the game and needing some extra disablers/buffs/debuffs for the rare encounter is acceptable. 50s is definitely reachable as a fighter but beyond that gets increasingly difficult.

Armor training is OK but not that essential, it's only up to +4 AC from dexterity. 2 or 3 feats in feats that provide more AC will counteract it. You're trading offense for defense, but then TSS as a class is already losing a ton of offense that other fighter classes would have gotten for its defense so it's kind of a wash. Also Valerie specifically has shit enough dex that you're hard pressed to get enough dex to take full advantage of armor training when using mithril full plate.

The better argument for monk AC bonuses is that it applies to touch AC.

I am not disputing that. I actually pointed out in my initial post that it is NOT worth the trade off. I did, however, concede that the Sorc/Monk is better as a tank at that point in time, which you disputed vehemently.

YOU have been desperate to show that a Fighter can out AC a Monk, which is fucking rubbish, unless you are willing to blow everything on the one Fighter in order to make it somewhat close.

If you do the math I showed that Valerie could reach a theoretical 33 AC vs. your 31.

You are devoting 100% of your spell slots and levels to maximizing your AC, pray tell me how you aren't blowing everything on your PC? Plus a fully customizable PC slot is more valuable than an NPC slot after all. And unless you are going to rest constantly for every single map your effective AC will be even lower than calculated due to buffs not being permanent.

You are retarded, aren't you? If you are going to tank, then a Sorc/Monk with Mage Armour and Shield is the way to go early, because you will eventually want both spells on the Sorcerer anyway. That is just standard practice (plus there isn't that many other great level 1 spells in the game). If you are going to be tanking, the early levels is where you don't need many options because the BAB difference isn't that great yet. And 1d4+1 a few times a day isn't going to make much of a difference, and Linzi should have the Grease spell by level 2. Getting there without taking up the entire party's resources means the Sorc/Monk comes out on top. Read the bolded and underlined part. It is fucking important, you imbecile.

Sorry, what are you complaining about? The fact that I spent 1 extra feat on AC or the party's gold? If its the former... you spent a whole level and a feat. If its the latter... what else do you spend gold on early game? A +1 crossbow for Linzi to miss with? lol.

 

[Haplo]

Most of the higher end AC builds I have seen relies on no armour. I suppose a TSS can get the same ridiculous AC with armour on thanks to their souped-up armour training, but that seems to be the only class that can do that in armour?

Would Sensei be a good Bard replacement? You get the two basic bard songs but that Mass Restoration with no spell component, and a bunch of Mass buffs seems to make up for it. The ones that the Sensei can't handle, your arcane caster can.

A Vivisectionist can get decent AC in armor with his Mutagen up to +6 AC and +6 Dex bonuses + Shield spell (and is not affected by armor spell failure). Of course, with a monk dip his nekkid AC will be even higher

I have started my first Kingmaker Vivisectionist multiclass in armor... but later restarted to go naked.

 

[Desiderius]

Protectors Robes aren't really helping with your tempo if you don't get them until Chapter 5. Likewise your Mutagen is only +2 AC until level 12. DEX-based gets another 2 AC from the Alchemical DEX bonus, which is why I said that Vivi splash gets most value for DEX-based melee. Still don't get Image or Uncanny Dodge.

And WIS to AC isn't a great fit for Saint when you have no other use for the stat.

I guess instead of soloing I should say playing with less than a full party, which I sometimes do early to milk a little EXP myself.

Would Sensei be a good Bard replacement?

Yeah, it's pretty great. Main downside is no Flurry so CMs are something to look into.



Pummeling Style still pretty damn good to get Pounce tho.

 

[Haplo]

Protectors Robes aren't really helping with your tempo if you don't get them until Chapter 5. And WIS to AC isn't a great fit for Saint when you have no other use for the stat.

What do you mean no other use? I consider Will save one of the most important defenses. Particularly with so many fey around...
True about the robe - its great for late game AC, but doesn't help with tempo. Stacking 2 (or even 3 in case of SS) different animal buffs to AC, activating Defensive Fighting with Crane Style and Mage armor do help, though.

I guess instead of soloing I should say playing with less than a full party, which I sometimes do early to milk a little EXP myself.

Eh, I don't really do that either in the Owlcat games - except for presentation purposes (did that in Wasteland 3 because it was too crowded, too much bother and too powerful otherwise).
What I actually do to slightly accelerate levelling (or a lot in case of Kingmaker), is to try to have decent Int and number of skill points - and assign skill xp to skill user (also use skill buffs/foods).

Would Sensei be a good Bard replacement?

Yeah, it's pretty great. Main downside is no Flurry so CMs are something to look into.

View attachment 24614

Pummeling Style still pretty damn good to get Pounce tho.

I guess its an interesting class. But what would be most painful for me, outside of no Swift Song, is the missing Dirge of Doom. That's great quality of life and Shatter Defenses is the ultimate, best feat.
Still your idea to maximize the effect of fewer attacks and focus on Combat Maneuvers with True Strike is sound.
Guess you need mods to use regular CMs properly, though.

 

[Desiderius]

It really depends on how much AC you consider "enough". IMO around 50 is fine, but there's certainly rare bosses and out of place overlevelled and statted monsters for which an AC in the 60s helps. It's up to the player whether being fine for 95% of the game and needing some extra disablers/buffs/debuffs for the rare encounter is acceptable. 50s is definitely reachable as a fighter but beyond that gets increasingly difficult.

Don't tank bosses. If you want to TSS can get a lot higher than that but just easier to use Illusion and Offense to keep the fight short. No reason to keep disablers/buffs/debuffs extra - they work the whole game to give you the freedom to develop your classes.

 

[Desiderius]

Move + Standard Action is what you end up doing a lot on melee characters. Making that Standard Action a CM even if you're slaying with Full Attax otherwise ends up being fine even without mods.

Since they eliminated song stacking I find it hard to ever activate Doom since it turns off Courage. If a fight is hard enough to need Shatter you don't want to turn off Courage/Greatness/Heroics. There are other ways to get Shaken.

 

[Cael]

Most of the higher end AC builds I have seen relies on no armour. I suppose a TSS can get the same ridiculous AC with armour on thanks to their souped-up armour training, but that seems to be the only class that can do that in armour?

Would Sensei be a good Bard replacement? You get the two basic bard songs but that Mass Restoration with no spell component, and a bunch of Mass buffs seems to make up for it. The ones that the Sensei can't handle, your arcane caster can.

A Vivisectionist can get decent AC in armor with his Mutagen up to +6 AC and +6 Dex bonuses + Shield spell (and is not affected by armor spell failure). Of course, with a monk dip his nekkid AC will be even higher

I have started my first Kingmaker Vivisectionist multiclass in armor... but later restarted to go naked.

I don't know, man. Unless you really want it, +4 AC while unarmoured (and only with a +8Wis whatever) doesn't seem to be a good fit. Vivi doesn't use Wis at all.

 

[Cael]

It really depends on how much AC you consider "enough". IMO around 50 is fine, but there's certainly rare bosses and out of place overlevelled and statted monsters for which an AC in the 60s helps. It's up to the player whether being fine for 95% of the game and needing some extra disablers/buffs/debuffs for the rare encounter is acceptable. 50s is definitely reachable as a fighter but beyond that gets increasingly difficult.

Armor training is OK but not that essential, it's only up to +4 AC from dexterity. 2 or 3 feats in feats that provide more AC will counteract it. You're trading offense for defense, but then TSS as a class is already losing a ton of offense that other fighter classes would have gotten for its defense so it's kind of a wash. Also Valerie specifically has shit enough dex that you're hard pressed to get enough dex to take full advantage of armor training when using mithril full plate.

The better argument for monk AC bonuses is that it applies to touch AC.

I am not disputing that. I actually pointed out in my initial post that it is NOT worth the trade off. I did, however, concede that the Sorc/Monk is better as a tank at that point in time, which you disputed vehemently.

YOU have been desperate to show that a Fighter can out AC a Monk, which is fucking rubbish, unless you are willing to blow everything on the one Fighter in order to make it somewhat close.

If you do the math I showed that Valerie could reach a theoretical 33 AC vs. your 31.

You are devoting 100% of your spell slots and levels to maximizing your AC, pray tell me how you aren't blowing everything on your PC? Plus a fully customizable PC slot is more valuable than an NPC slot after all. And unless you are going to rest constantly for every single map your effective AC will be even lower than calculated due to buffs not being permanent.

You are retarded, aren't you? If you are going to tank, then a Sorc/Monk with Mage Armour and Shield is the way to go early, because you will eventually want both spells on the Sorcerer anyway. That is just standard practice (plus there isn't that many other great level 1 spells in the game). If you are going to be tanking, the early levels is where you don't need many options because the BAB difference isn't that great yet. And 1d4+1 a few times a day isn't going to make much of a difference, and Linzi should have the Grease spell by level 2. Getting there without taking up the entire party's resources means the Sorc/Monk comes out on top. Read the bolded and underlined part. It is fucking important, you imbecile.

Sorry, what are you complaining about? The fact that I spent 1 extra feat on AC or the party's gold? If its the former... you spent a whole level and a feat. If its the latter... what else do you spend gold on early game? A +1 crossbow for Linzi to miss with? lol.

You are a retarded cunt. You basically say, "I spend everything on one guy, build my entire party around that one guy, and so it is obviously equal to your guy who can be solo and doesn't eat resources."

This is the last time I will reply to you simply because it is obvious you are too low an IQ to know what adults talk about.

 

[Haplo]

Most of the higher end AC builds I have seen relies on no armour. I suppose a TSS can get the same ridiculous AC with armour on thanks to their souped-up armour training, but that seems to be the only class that can do that in armour?

Would Sensei be a good Bard replacement? You get the two basic bard songs but that Mass Restoration with no spell component, and a bunch of Mass buffs seems to make up for it. The ones that the Sensei can't handle, your arcane caster can.

A Vivisectionist can get decent AC in armor with his Mutagen up to +6 AC and +6 Dex bonuses + Shield spell (and is not affected by armor spell failure). Of course, with a monk dip his nekkid AC will be even higher

I have started my first Kingmaker Vivisectionist multiclass in armor... but later restarted to go naked.

I don't know, man. Unless you really want it, +4 AC while unarmoured (and only with a +8Wis whatever) doesn't seem to be a good fit. Vivi doesn't use Wis at all.

That was the original Vivi Tripper (granted not a pure Vivi):

Not stellar AC, but largely sufficient.

Certain subraces can afford 16 starting Wis easily... and improving your Will save is never a waste.

 

[Cael]

That was the original Vivi Tripper (granted not a pure Vivi):

Not stellar AC, but largely sufficient.

Certain subraces can afford 16 starting Wis easily... and improving your Will save is never a waste.

Well, I suppose Bracers of Armour +8 is basically full plate, so if you can get +7 or higher Wis + Dex bonus, you are better off than anyone wearing full plate +5. That +5 Robes do make it a lot easier to out-AC any possible armour combination.

EDIT: I am currently running a Sacred Huntmaster x/Slayer 4 archer MC. I got a funny feeling I should really have gone SHx/Slayer 3/Monk 1, just for those robes. Mind you, I have 2x Animal Domain Clerics as well (LG and LN), and they can certainly afford to drop a level on Monk to use the robes.

 

[Average Manatee]

It really depends on how much AC you consider "enough". IMO around 50 is fine, but there's certainly rare bosses and out of place overlevelled and statted monsters for which an AC in the 60s helps. It's up to the player whether being fine for 95% of the game and needing some extra disablers/buffs/debuffs for the rare encounter is acceptable. 50s is definitely reachable as a fighter but beyond that gets increasingly difficult.

Don't tank bosses. If you want to TSS can get a lot higher than that but just easier to use Illusion and Offense to keep the fight short. No reason to keep disablers/buffs/debuffs extra - they work the whole game to give you the freedom to develop your classes.

I agree completely, I just included that for completeness sake to stave off the inevitable autistic nitpicking.

 

[Average Manatee]

You are a retarded cunt. You basically say, "I spend everything on one guy, build my entire party around that one guy, and so it is obviously equal to your guy who can be solo and doesn't eat resources."

This is the last time I will reply to you simply because it is obvious you are too low an IQ to know what adults talk about.

I don't get why you are so autistic over starting gold. What else do you spend money on? There's fucking nothing else worth buying and gold quickly becomes virtually limitless. "b-b-b-but you spent 500 gold on an item that's unfair!"

Seems that you should just accept that you lost the argument rather than trying to dwell on trivialities. Need I remind you that this was your original, laughable claim:

A fighter won't be able to get to AC 20 right at the start (at Oleg's, for example).

 

[Desiderius]

Most of the higher end AC builds I have seen relies on no armour. I suppose a TSS can get the same ridiculous AC with armour on thanks to their souped-up armour training, but that seems to be the only class that can do that in armour?

Would Sensei be a good Bard replacement? You get the two basic bard songs but that Mass Restoration with no spell component, and a bunch of Mass buffs seems to make up for it. The ones that the Sensei can't handle, your arcane caster can.

A Vivisectionist can get decent AC in armor with his Mutagen up to +6 AC and +6 Dex bonuses + Shield spell (and is not affected by armor spell failure). Of course, with a monk dip his nekkid AC will be even higher

I have started my first Kingmaker Vivisectionist multiclass in armor... but later restarted to go naked.

I don't know, man. Unless you really want it, +4 AC while unarmoured (and only with a +8Wis whatever) doesn't seem to be a good fit. Vivi doesn't use Wis at all.

That was the original Vivi Tripper (granted not a pure Vivi):

Not stellar AC, but largely sufficient.

Certain subraces can afford 16 starting Wis easily... and improving your Will save is never a waste.

Motherless gets the WIS boost (and the INT malus lol). Gotta do what you’ll gotta do.

 

[Cael]

Hungerseed would have been better. +Str/Wis, -Cha. You don't need that much Int as a melee Vivi, though.

 

[Haplo]

Hungerseed would have been better. +Str/Wis, -Cha. You don't need that much Int as a melee Vivi, though.

Not for this build :D

3 bite attacks - and each can Trip with the Cloak of the Winter Wolf. Each Trip triggers another hit from the Mastery Fauchard :D - and AoOs for everyone near, of course.

Works much better in real time, where you can manually switch targets during iterative attacks (as you can't trip someone already prone).

 

[IDtenT]

I tried this again and I just can't play tb without a grid.

 

[Desiderius]

You don’t need the Bite really.

You’re there for the Infusions* and more INT is more Infusions and skills.

* - coming out of 3.5 it’s great fun to slice and dice and feel like you’re totally broken but once you figure out what else you can do - and what are the biggest threats - it’s just a nice mix of decent damage and a source of something (Infusions) you can’t get on any other class.

EDIT: Advanced Rogue Talents aren’t anything to sneeze at, so that a good reason to choose the class

But other Alchemists can and Touch AoE debuff + damage is also unique and a better fit for neutralizing the biggest threats you face. So I went Grenadier for Unfair P:K and was much happier with that.

In P:K you can get that from a companion, where you can’t in Wrath. If I wanted Infusions in Wrath and something fun I’d just go Metamorph for Stealth Leopard/Smilo/Dragon I think. The Summoner one also makes good use of the shitty 5th level spell slots.

Best place for Vivi in Wrath is probably the last eight levels on Wolj but I’ve been making him into ES20 Transmuter and that’s been really good.

Haplo could do 5,000 damage a round on a Starknife-wielding Chiurgeon so don’t let that fool you.

 

[Desiderius]

I tried this again and I just can't play tb without a grid.

Play RTwP then. Use the v button to advance frame by frame.

 

[Cael]

Hungerseed would have been better. +Str/Wis, -Cha. You don't need that much Int as a melee Vivi, though.

Not for this build :D

3 bite attacks - and each can Trip with the Cloak of the Winter Wolf. Each Trip triggers another hit from the Mastery Fauchard :D - and AoOs for everyone near, of course.

Works much better in real time, where you can manually switch targets during iterative attacks (as you can't trip someone already prone).

Hungerseed has +2 CM and +2 CMD?

 

[ga♥]

Bites and reach weapons like a fauchard don't really work together unless you want to give up reach.

 

[Yosharian]

Judgement, Bane and Divine Power are very intensive abilities/spells compared to Mutagen which is just press button at start of dungeon and you're done. Judgement needs to be activated every encounter, Bane is on specific targets only and Divine Power has a very short duration.

Inquisitor is an excellent class but it is a very different style to Vivi and not necessarily strictly superior just because it can ramp up to a higher martial prowess after using 3 limited resource and limited duration spells/abilities.

That said in Wrath specifically Inq has a huge power spike from getting access to Domains which Vivi doesn't get

Another point is that Vivi gets to do some unique things like give Shield to allies which Inq can't do

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah main point was people were touting Vivi as uber-busted and the main thing that keeps it in check is that on top of 3/4 BAB Mutagen is only +2 until level 12 compared to Slayer which is full BAB + Studied or Fighter with full BAB + Training + Gloves.

By the time you get to the +4 Mutagen Inq has a lot of Judgement activations (and two at a time), plus a good many Bane Weapon (which works against anything?) rounds and nearing Great Bane, plus a ton of casts for Divine Favor/Power which last ten rounds each.

By that point you can have all three up for fights that matter as I did on Jae.







Instead of Infusions on Inq you can cast your way out of an ambush where you don't have time to buff:



Wrath you get more rests and ways to get more activations/casts so the gap grows wider.

(you can also see Grenadier Blinding two tough targets in those shots with Bomb)

 

[Haplo]

Hungerseed would have been better. +Str/Wis, -Cha. You don't need that much Int as a melee Vivi, though.

Not for this build :D

3 bite attacks - and each can Trip with the Cloak of the Winter Wolf. Each Trip triggers another hit from the Mastery Fauchard :D - and AoOs for everyone near, of course.

Works much better in real time, where you can manually switch targets during iterative attacks (as you can't trip someone already prone).

Hungerseed has +2 CM and +2 CMD?

Yes.

But doesn't get Bite.
Which translates up to 3 extra attacks, two of them two handed, two with sneak attacks.

 

[Desiderius]

Bite + Cloak means extra Trips in P:K, but not in Wrath (no Cloak).

But Bite is another-5 AB so seems like win more but if MC is main source of offense then you can generate a lot if you can connect. And you're Haplo.

Extra bites rarely show up on my Combat Logs.