Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Enhanced Edition - now with A Dance of Masks epilogue DLC

[Desiderius]

She's not going to change her entire way of speaking because she's hanging around paladins instead of street people, especially since these were bleeding heart paladins.

She's not just hanging with paladins, she's becoming one. Of course that will change how one acts, including speech. It's kind of the point.

 

[Desiderius]

Oh for sure she'd likely still be a "rough" speaker in context - just like she's portrayed as still being quite a "rough" character for a Paladin (fond of drinking and joking with the boys, etc.) - but it's the difference between expecting the speech patterns of a reformed guttersnipe from the 15th century and a Black zoomer from the 21st. They didn't need to do much except not have 21st century colloquialisms and speech patterns. Is that too much to ask?

I don't really recall anything about her dialogue that sounds like it's specifically from someone born in the late 90s.

This does not come across as how someone in the 21st century would talk.

Stunning and brave.

 

[skaraher]

Not really believable. If you join a religious order/military outfit, especially as a young conflicted teenager, you generally have picked up the mannerism and appearances of it when you're well into adulthood. Those organisations tend to weed out the ones who aren't going to fit in the mold. It's more of an excuse to justify away bad writing (Paladin is the trickiest class to write/roleplay as compelling characters witout versing into caricature) by staying in the generic "teenage adventurer kicking ass" fratsis shtick. What could have been actually good writing would be to let her old past and mannerism surface in specific situations. Like maybe have her using thief slang while dealing with the thieflings, etc.

Having the paladin being a reformed thief is not a bad idea on paper, and the fact that her own past pushes her to hope for the same kind of redemption for Curl could make sense, but the execution in the actual dialogues is very poor.

Also she is from OG-Pathfinder TTRPG so maybe the interesting parts of her background weren't written by Owlcat.

Have her actually fall and devolving to Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral depending on your choices and loosing her paladin powers could have been an interesting outcome for her quest. Missed opportunity for C/C.

 

[gurugeorge]

Oh for sure she'd likely still be a "rough" speaker in context - just like she's portrayed as still being quite a "rough" character for a Paladin (fond of drinking and joking with the boys, etc.) - but it's the difference between expecting the speech patterns of a reformed guttersnipe from the 15th century and a Black zoomer from the 21st. They didn't need to do much except not have 21st century colloquialisms and speech patterns. Is that too much to ask?

I don't really recall anything about her dialogue that sounds like it's specifically from someone born in the late 90s.

This does not come across as how someone in the 21st century would talk.

My topic here is partly about the VO and choice of actress though (or at the very least, her coaching and production). (And to be clear, I'm not one of those who hates all the writing in the game, I've always maintained that it's merely uneven and that it does have some good bits, even some very good bits, same as Kingmaker.)

 

[LannTheStupid]

If you join a religious order/military outfit, especially as a young conflicted teenager, you generally have picked up the mannerism and appearances of it when you're well into adulthood. Those organisations tend to weed out the ones who aren't going to fit in the mold.

Iomedae is an LG deity, so all the strictures you mention can be expected there.

However, the Paladins of Iomedae are fighting their 4+ crusade. Everybody who could be weeded out are already dead or dying in captivity. I think, under such circumstances they cannot afford to reject Seelah just because she does not fit in the mold. I think they cannot afford to reject anyone anymore, and even have to accept a person without history as their Knight-Commander.

 

[skaraher]

And to be clear, I'm not one of those who hates all the writing in the game, I've always maintained that it's merely uneven and that it does have some good bits, even some very good bits.

Same opinion for me, which is why the bad part stands out even more. It doesn't help that (except Sosiel) most of the bad characters show up as early as the Prologue so the worse parts of the writing are generally part of your first impression.

More thoughts about the different companions arc I've completed :

Lann : Classic. Been there done that, but nicely done, tied with the overall narrative, give closure to the plot threads started in the Prologue. Tropes and stereotypes aren't really an issue when they're done well. The dependable sidekick being an old guy well past his prime (with mongrel lifespan Lann is in his twilight years) is a nice idea, and they don't try to overdo it. Heard his romance is terrible and the scene with his mother sure was cringy, but romances usually are in general. Mostly give sensible advices on the council. Not really a lot of reactivity. Basically you make him believe in himself and he lives, or you don't and he sacrifices himself.

Woljif : Classic and stereotypical but I liked his dialogue. Sure gave a lot more Planescape-vibe than Arueshalae. Good depiction of what a realistic Chaotic Neutral thief would be. Wasn't surprised to see him run off and do his own thing when shit hits the fan and the camp is attacked. You can call him out on his bullshit and not take him back. Didn't go the Demon Woljif part so I don't know if there are actual gameplay consequences to it, but some C/C in his quest.

Greybor : How is this guy not Neutral Evil ? If Regill is Lawful Evil, Greybor surely is Neutral Evil. Deals with demons on regular basis, kills for money and doesn't have any qualm about it. Only it for himself, will betray you if you refuse to pay him etc. Neutral Evil doesn't always mean cannibal murderer or undead scythe-wielding elven cultist. Didn't find his journey and "dilemna" with the assassin guild really interesting. Wasn't really moved by the double-double crossing at the end. I guess you don't have enough interaction to build a believable relation of mutual respect with him. Like he said "you are my boss, I trust you etc" but I didn't really got the feel I worked to earn his respect.

Regill : One of the strongest companion narratively, lots of dialogue reacting to the majority of your decision in the game, very good in council, and an overall coherent characterization without weak points. But his personal quests were rather bland and the Hellknights were featured prominently in Act 2 but quickly lost the spotlight in the following acts. Wasn't really engaged by the pseudo-trial. Also his depiction ingame isn't really Lawful Evil. He's solely dedicated to his cause and not in it for himself, basically everything he does is rationalized in light of the fight against demons. His most heinous action is in his character intro (murdering his own wounded soldiers) and it is quickly shown as entirely justified by the circumstances (most of the captives are turned into ghouls anyway). He is more of a very gray and ruthless Lawful Neutral than a Lawful Evil.

Daeran : Good on paper, so-so in execution. A lot of his jokes and quips aren't really well-written and fall flat. Not a bumbling buffoon but not an excellent comic relief neither. His personal quest is good even if a bit far from the main plot and tone of the game (cosmic horror). His interaction with Galfrey were amusing tho. Really a hit-or-miss character. Also he is neutral evil (because what ? He's rude and selfish ?) while murderer-for-hire Greybor is True Neutral.

Nenio : Very bad comic relief, no relevance whatsoever to the overall narrative or meaningful interactions with the rest of the party. One of the strongest character mechanically as she is a pure wizard with good stats, but you're basically better of with a mercenary for all the narrative value she brings (which is none). At her best she is inane and insignificant, at her worse she is unsufferable and pure cringe. Her quest is a massive puzzle slog.

Sosiel : Started boring, quickly turned bad and embarrassing. The sliver of character depth shown in his first mission (the faggy and artsy cleric being a violent and brutal man) was swept under the rug and forgotten. His drama about the perception of his brother felt forced and wasn't engaging. Like yeah he had a change of heart and went from one military order to another, why are we supposed to care ? Doesn't help that his brother, who is hyped during the whole arc as an interesting and conflicting figure, is really bland when you finally met him. None of the questions raised by his journey are answered and he basically has the same dialogue as the Lich graveguards.

Arueshalae and Ember are full-on anime and waifu bait. I fully expected it before even recruiting them but it fails hard with Arueshalae.

Her characterization is boring. She is already redeemed when you meet her, but the redeeming isn't her own, she was litterally brainwashed by a godess to erase her mind and imprint a new personality on her. None of her character arc shows any agency and meaningful dilemna. Yes you can make her fail her redemption by being a dick to her but it felt like an afterthought and not really developped. We don't really see her struggle with her succubus nature, her arc lacks severely in "Show don't tell". Also she is whiny and angsty everytime and not a really compelling person. Her interactions with the other demons help give more depths to the Act 3 and Act 4, but as her own character she's pretty weak.

Ember quest is nice on the C/C and reactivity and offers meaningful gameplay and story consequences but I wasn't convinced by the execution of the dialogue. Felt a bit mary sue while don't really giving meaningful insights on anything. Trying to write religious/philosophical characters is hard, and I don't think Owlcat succeeded in its endeavour with her. The Nocticula part of her arc felt a lot forced, but I read its (Nocticula "redemption" that is) directly from OG-Pathfinder.

Currently going through Wenduag and Camellia arc on my actual run, definetely finds them to be part of the stronger characters of the cast and I'm curious to see where will their journey leads.

 

[Roguey]

My topic here is partly about the VO and choice of actress though (or at the very least, her coaching and production). (And to be clear, I'm not one of those who hates all the writing in the game, I've always maintained that it's merely uneven and that it does have some good bits, even some very good bits, same as Kingmaker.)

They hired a broadway actress, so that's the performance they wanted.

 

[skaraher]

If you join a religious order/military outfit, especially as a young conflicted teenager, you generally have picked up the mannerism and appearances of it when you're well into adulthood. Those organisations tend to weed out the ones who aren't going to fit in the mold.

Iomedae is an LG deity, so all the strictures you mention can be expected there.

However, the Paladins of Iomedae are fighting their 4+ crusade. Everybody who could be weeded out are already dead or dying in captivity. I think, under such circumstances they cannot afford to reject Seelah just because she does not fit in the mold. I think they cannot afford to reject anyone anymore, and even have to accept a person without history as their Knight-Commander.

The whole point of Paladin is that they're not supposed to move their standards according to circumstances. It is the core identity of the class. When they were introduced in DnD, Paladin were supposed to do basically the same thing as Fighter, but with spells, immunities, a free magic horse, really good minimum stats and all that. The constraint was a really draconian RP based on fullfilling strict vows and always acting in balance with Lawful and Good in all circumstances. Paladins can't "afford to reject someone" or not, you basically are or aren't. Seelah is not supposed to be a rando footsoldier or a shifty specialist like Anevia or Thiefling rogue from the DLC.

When you don't perform up to the standard of Paladin vows, you aren't "rejected". You outright lose your divine powers and class ability. It is supposed to be a very hard class to play, even tho each subsequent edition of DnD have been nerfing their gameplay benefits.

 

[Roguey]

The whole point of Paladin is that they're not supposed to move their standards according to circumstances. It is the core identity of the class. When they were introduced in DnD, Paladin were supposed to do basically the same thing as Fighter, but with spells, immunities, a free magic horse, really good minimum stats and all that. The constraint was a really draconian RP based on fullfilling strict vows and always acting in balance with Lawful and Good in all circumstances. Paladins can't "afford to reject someone" or not, you basically are or aren't. Seelah is not supposed to be a rando footsoldier or a shifty specialist like Anevia or Thiefling rogue from the DLC.

When you don't perform up to the standard of Paladin vows, you aren't "rejected". You outright lose your divine powers and class ability. It is supposed to be a very hard class to play, even tho each subsequent edition of DnD have been nerfing their gameplay benefits.

This is Pozfinder, not the Forgotten Realms.

Code of Conduct​

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.


Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Seelah meets the criteria.

 

[LannTheStupid]

When you don't perform up to the standard of Paladin vows, you aren't "rejected". You outright lose your divine powers and class ability. It is supposed to be a very hard class to play, even tho each subsequent edition of DnD have been nerfing their gameplay benefits.

However, it can be interpreted the other way around.

Until the deity strips the Paladin of their powers, the actions of this Paladin are in accordance with the deities' wishes. Seelah still has the powers granted by Iomedae, so she is OK.

Even worse - the murderous Order of the Prisms from Kingmaker had the powers granted by the "goddess of art, beauty, love and music". Is it a plot hole in Kingmaker writing or is it the attitude of the gods towards the mortals that Ember resents so much?

For me it's open to interpretation.

 

[Desiderius]

The whole point of Paladin is that they're not supposed to move their standards according to circumstances. It is the core identity of the class. When they were introduced in DnD, Paladin were supposed to do basically the same thing as Fighter, but with spells, immunities, a free magic horse, really good minimum stats and all that. The constraint was a really draconian RP based on fullfilling strict vows and always acting in balance with Lawful and Good in all circumstances. Paladins can't "afford to reject someone" or not, you basically are or aren't. Seelah is not supposed to be a rando footsoldier or a shifty specialist like Anevia or Thiefling rogue from the DLC.

When you don't perform up to the standard of Paladin vows, you aren't "rejected". You outright lose your divine powers and class ability. It is supposed to be a very hard class to play, even tho each subsequent edition of DnD have been nerfing their gameplay benefits.

This is Pozfinder, not the Forgotten Realms.

Code of Conduct​

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.


Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Seelah meets the criteria.

What was Curl’s punishment?

 

[Crichton]

When you don't perform up to the standard of Paladin vows, you aren't "rejected". You outright lose your divine powers and class ability. It is supposed to be a very hard class to play, even tho each subsequent edition of DnD have been nerfing their gameplay benefits.

However, it can be interpreted the other way around.

Until the deity strips the Paladin of their powers, the actions of this Paladin are in accordance with the deities' wishes. Seelah still has the powers granted by Iomedae, so she is OK.

Even worse - the murderous Order of the Prisms from Kingmaker had the powers granted by the "goddess of art, beauty, love and music". Is it a plot hole in Kingmaker writing or is it the attitude of the gods towards the mortals that Ember resents so much?

For me it's open to interpretation.

I think it (the evil paladins in the first game) is clearly a plot hole. Seelah, on the other hand, is simply someone who doesn't stand on ceremony (and may not be a stickler for regulations), rather like Hinjo from the Order of the Stick. I don't like her voice acting either, but I don't think her dialog is poorly written (at least not when compared to the other NPCs).

 

[skaraher]

Weapon training bonus for fighter stacks. Throwing axe are both in the Weapon training group axe and thrown weapon. So wenduag is a beast.

 

[gurugeorge]

My topic here is partly about the VO and choice of actress though (or at the very least, her coaching and production). (And to be clear, I'm not one of those who hates all the writing in the game, I've always maintained that it's merely uneven and that it does have some good bits, even some very good bits, same as Kingmaker.)

They hired a broadway actress, so that's the performance they wanted.

And I'm saying they made a mistake.

 

[Roguey]

What was Curl’s punishment?

I'm not that far yet, but Seelah wasn't punished for thievery. Iomedae believes extenuating circumstances matter.

Edicts	Be temperate, fight for justice and honor, hold valor in your heart
Anathema	Abandon a companion in need, dishonor yourself, refuse a challenge from an equal

As long as those tenets are upheld she's cool.

 

[Desiderius]

What was Curl’s punishment?

I'm not that far yet, but Seelah wasn't punished for thievery. Iomedae believes extenuating circumstances matter.

Edicts	Be temperate, fight for justice and honor, hold valor in your heart
Anathema	Abandon a companion in need, dishonor yourself, refuse a challenge from an equal

As long as those tenets are upheld she's cool.

Curl, uh, does a little more than steal something.

You brought up punishment, and of course that's exactly what's missing since Pozzed. And yes Pozzed IPs will find a way to extenuate themselves out of that sort of thing over time until everyone gets killed and the cycle starts anew.

 

[Desiderius]

Weapon training bonus for fighter stacks. Throwing axe are both in the Weapon training group axe and thrown weapon. So wenduag is a beast.

This was fixed IIRC.

 

[Humanophage]

And to be clear, I'm not one of those who hates all the writing in the game, I've always maintained that it's merely uneven and that it does have some good bits, even some very good bits.

Same opinion for me, which is why the bad part stands out even more. It doesn't help that (except Sosiel) most of the bad characters show up as early as the Prologue so the worse parts of the writing are generally part of your first impression.

I'm just starting, but I somewhat enjoy Camellia's over-the-top Patrick Bateman writing. I don't know the spoilers, but random hostiles casting Smite Evil on her, the torture porn, "I was hiding evil in my heart before it was mainstream", and the "I am useful, am I not" are all fairly amusing. I'll be disappointed if it isn't some maneating wendigo skindancer or whatever.

 

[The_Mask]

I'm just starting, but I somewhat enjoy Camellia's over-the-top Patrick Bateman writing. I don't know the spoilers, but random hostiles casting Smite Evil on her, the torture porn, "I was hiding evil in my heart before it was mainstream", and the "I am useful, am I not" are all fairly amusing. I'll be disappointed if it isn't some maneating wendigo skindancer or whatever.

Good luck getting through act 1. It gets better afterwards, trust me.

 

[Mauman]

Oh for sure she'd likely still be a "rough" speaker in context - just like she's portrayed as still being quite a "rough" character for a Paladin (fond of drinking and joking with the boys, etc.) - but it's the difference between expecting the speech patterns of a reformed guttersnipe from the 15th century and a Black zoomer from the 21st. They didn't need to do much except not have 21st century colloquialisms and speech patterns. Is that too much to ask?

I don't really recall anything about her dialogue that sounds like it's specifically from someone born in the late 90s.

This does not come across as how someone in the 21st century would talk.

She literally has a voice clip where she goes "DAAAAAYYYYUUUUUUMMMMM"

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Another thing to note is that Paladin (later Champion in PF2E) by Paizo is not "church militant" group that it is in DnD. They pretty much put tenet (edict/anathema) as the core of role-playing identities as pointed out by Roguey above (and in case of PF2E, removed the LG requirement with now Champions need to follow their own deity alignment, e.g. Champion of the Drunk God guy will be CG).

That being said... in the case Seelah personal quest, once again, it is ill-fitting to the whole Paladin theme. Once again, it will be more impactful as part of Knight Errant. Say if we put Seelah into Anomen like situation where her choice (helped by us) resulted in her changing class etc. This arc make sense as background story not when Seelah is already an established, experienced Paladin. She is after all Paladin (LG Champion in PF2E speaks) of Iomedae:

In a way there are probably ways to keep the overall plot of her personal quest main plot but repurpose it in the way that it make sense for a Paladin of Iomedae to act, e.g. not randomly killing Curl in part due trus and in big part to find out the source. Providing temperate punishment and chance of redemption, not just randomly killing people for being EVIL or something.

Paladin Code​

The paladins of Iomedae are just and strong, crusaders who live for the joy of righteous battle. Their mission is to right wrongs and eliminate evil at its root. They serve as examples to others, and their code demands they protect the weak and innocent by eliminating sources of oppression, rather than merely the symptoms. They may back down or withdraw from a fight if they are overmatched, but if their lives will buy time for others to escape, they must give them. Their tenets include the following affirmations.

• I will learn the weight of my sword. Without my heart to guide it, it is worthless—my strength is not in my sword, but in my heart. If I lose my sword, I have lost a tool. If I betray my heart, I have died.
• I will have faith in the Inheritor. I will channel her strength through my body. I will shine in her legion, and I will not tarnish her glory through base actions.
• I am the first into battle, and the last to leave it.
• I will not be taken prisoner by my free will. I will not surrender those under my command.
• I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
• I will guard the honor of my fellows, both in thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
• When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.
• I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest.
• I will suffer death before dishonor.
• I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae’s perfection.

That being said, also, as per Paizo canon, her way of speech is basically a nothing burger. Yes, her voice direction is waaay to modern and exaggerated, but this is not issue exclusive to her. Those voiceline are probably recorded independent of the character being written too, a big symptom of WOTR feeling of having multiple writer but no good editor to keep everything glued in a way that make sense.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I'll be disappointed if it isn't some maneating wendigo skindancer or whatever.

Boy, you have no idea

 

[Desiderius]

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

 

[Roguey]

I've been playing this every day for over two months straight now, the in-game timer says I've been at it for over 120 hours, and I just completed act three.

I hope the content's front-loaded and the last half of the game is shorter.

Also laughing and seething at myself because I had forgotten about that one particular aspect of balors that ended up costing me a raise dead scroll. I would have applied fire protection had I remembered.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

I've been playing this every day for over two months straight now, the in-game timer says I've been at it for over 120 hours, and I just completed act three.

I assume you play TB yeah? Playing full TB playhtough is probably 200 hours stuff.

I played fully on RtwP except sekrit Chapter 5 fight and it took me 120 hours on modified Core