Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Desiderius]

Nah Vek and Holic can manage it single-handedly. Too many incompetent suits with their hand in the cookie jar. Changing from jacket and tie to tie-dyed clownsuit doesn't change the underlying dynamic.

 

[Yosharian]

Yes but Owlcat shot themselves in the foot introducing so many classes and archetypes. It's too many to effectively manage for the size of their team, that's really clear.

And they introduce so many archetypes that are fucking useless that virtually nobody will ever play.

Complete waste of time and money.

 

[Delterius]

And they introduce so many archetypes that are fucking useless that virtually nobody will ever play.

what is there to dislike about <arcanist with a worse spellbook> and <kineticist without combat bonuses>?

my ideal scenario the classes would have 2 or 3 archetypes but they'd all be brown fur transmuter esque

 

[Yosharian]

Battle Singer is a great example, in theory this class is super cool - gives the Skald something useful to do while singing, that doesn't burn spell slots.

In practice the abilities have almost no DC scaling and are completely useless as a result. I cannot fathom how anyone would be happy using this archetype. So the whole thing was just a massive waste of time.

Demon Dancer and Court Poet are both flavorful and different enough that those could have been the only archetypes, and time wasted making those other ones could have been spent making sure those archetypes functioned correctly, were fun to play, didn't end up useless in lategame, etc

 

[traa]

Well, it isn't the best. But the question was how its possible to increase Move Speed - while practically having little-to-none level budget. Fast Move Rage Power would be one such solution, particularly if you offload it on another character (Skald). Also +30 Move Speed Translates to effective +90 Move range here (+50% from Mobility 1, X2 for both Move and Standard actions).

Lann Drovier gets 30ft speed boost aura.

Is that exclusive to Lann? (I mean the ability itself, not the effect which is aura)

 

[Average Manatee]

Game/system complexity is still no excuse for regressions. This isn't their first game either, patches that consistently introduce more bugs than they fix should be a thing of the past.

 

[Desiderius]

Well, it isn't the best. But the question was how its possible to increase Move Speed - while practically having little-to-none level budget. Fast Move Rage Power would be one such solution, particularly if you offload it on another character (Skald). Also +30 Move Speed Translates to effective +90 Move range here (+50% from Mobility 1, X2 for both Move and Standard actions).

Lann Drovier gets 30ft speed boost aura.

Is that exclusive to Lann? (I mean the ability itself, not the effect which is aura)

No, but he's the only companion that sets up well to multiclass, and Druid is a particularly good fit since he has good WIS and Druid usually lacks any ranged proficiency. Drovier trades Wild Shape for the Auras (eventually topping out in Aspect of Wolf Aura which gives team +4 STR/DEX boost - +8 with Polymorph Mythic - and Swift Trips. But the Speed one is good until you can keep Haste up.) which is a great trade since he's not interested in Wild Shaping.

 

[Technomancer]

So the whole thing was just a massive waste of time

How about prestige class that focuses on poisons

 

[Dhaze]

I know you're kidding, but somewhere not too far there's a parallel reality in which a variation of what you imagine is a viable long-term development strategy.

Have one team working on breaking stuff, with a minimum quota of five bugs introduced with each patch; and a second team, working on fixing things that were broken by the last patch. No communication is allowed between the two.

On Reddit there's a huge amount of people fervently praising Owlcat for the ever-continuous 'fixing' of Wrath, and very little backlash when things go awry—said backlash being promptly assuaged by a nany-like community manager. And those are perhaps the most important players: those who will jump head first into another Kickstarter or buy the game on day one.

Well, I read the EE thread on reddit someone posted some time ago and I noticed that the dev representative keep replying to people asking for genuine improvements with "we didn't have time/budget for everything". That's all fine and dandy, but when you have budget for photo mode and time for reintroducing old bugs and breaking things even further then my middle finger really starts to itch.

It's even worse than that.

In the weeks and days preceding the Enhanced Edition's release, I read comments written by Owlcat's community manager on Reddit, talking about substantial added content for Gold Dragon and Devil. Then the EE was released, and there was pretty much fuck-all for Gold Dragon and Devil.

Cue this thread—which numbers amongst the few where players are not so kind with Owlcat—and yeah, a few hours before release the community manager tried to shift the blame onto dataminers for fostering false hopes. As if he himself had not been fanning the embers for weeks and weeks...
I don't have enough time to dredge through Reddit now, to find and quote the exact thread or comment, but I distinctly remember reading one of his posts weeks ago which said in substance, "Don't start a new Gold Dragon or Devil playthrough now; wait for the EE, there's gonna be a good amount of content added to these paths."

Given their track record, if I buy their next game it's gonna be three or possibly four years after its initial release, and not a day sooner.

 

[Yosharian]

So the whole thing was just a massive waste of time

How about prestige class that focuses on poisons

Lmao I'd forgotten about the PrCs.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah way too many are useless and just as many are good but redundant, ie hunter has inquisitor-y type, inquisitor has a hunter-y type, and nearly everybody has some variation on a Bard. It's just lazy design. They could have easily cut the number of archetypes in half and but make sure it all works and provides different enough flavor to be interesting and the game would be better for it.

 

[Yosharian]

I know you're kidding, but somewhere not too far there's a parallel reality in which a variation of what you imagine is a viable long-term development strategy.

Have one team working on breaking stuff, with a minimum quota of five bugs introduced with each patch; and a second team, working on fixing things that were broken by the last patch. No communication is allowed between the two.

On Reddit there's a huge amount of people fervently praising Owlcat for the ever-continuous 'fixing' of Wrath, and very little backlash when things go awry—said backlash being promptly assuaged by a nany-like community manager. And those are perhaps the most important players: those who will jump head first into another Kickstarter or buy the game on day one.

Well, I read the EE thread on reddit someone posted some time ago and I noticed that the dev representative keep replying to people asking for genuine improvements with "we didn't have time/budget for everything". That's all fine and dandy, but when you have budget for photo mode and time for reintroducing old bugs and breaking things even further then my middle finger really starts to itch.

It's even worse than that.

In the weeks and days preceding the Enhanced Edition's release, I read comments written by Owlcat's community manager on Reddit, talking about substantial added content for Gold Dragon and Devil. Then the EE was released, and there was pretty much fuck-all for Gold Dragon and Devil.

Cue this thread—which numbers amongst the few where players are not so kind with Owlcat—and yeah, a few hours before release the community manager tried to shift the blame onto dataminers for fostering false hopes. As if he himself had not been fanning the embers for weeks and weeks...
I don't have enough time to dredge through Reddit now, to find and quote the exact thread or comment, but I distinctly remember reading one of his posts weeks ago which said in substance, "Don't start a new Gold Dragon or Devil playthrough now; wait for the EE, there's gonna be a good amount of content added to these paths."

Given their track record, if I buy their next game it's gonna be three or possibly four years after its initial release, and not a day sooner.

[–]froggz01 -4 points 9 days ago
Sounds like you need to take a break from this game, getting upset is not worth the stress. I recommend playing cyberpunk, the latest patch actually made the game playable.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah way too many are useless and just as many are good but redundant, ie hunter has inquisitor-y type, inquisitor has a hunter-y type, and nearly everybody has some variation on bard.

Just admit you're too lazy to read what they do.

Inquisitor Hunter (Divine Hound) give Judgments *to pet* (which no other archetype in game can do and is completely busted) and (obviously) has different spellbook from (often redundant) Inquisitor spellbook. Inquisitor has no Hunter type, it's just an Inquisitor that trades Judgments for (full) pet.

The ruleset is best in genre, it's Owlcat's implementation that's been spotty.

 

[traa]

Well, it isn't the best. But the question was how its possible to increase Move Speed - while practically having little-to-none level budget. Fast Move Rage Power would be one such solution, particularly if you offload it on another character (Skald). Also +30 Move Speed Translates to effective +90 Move range here (+50% from Mobility 1, X2 for both Move and Standard actions).

Lann Drovier gets 30ft speed boost aura.

Is that exclusive to Lann? (I mean the ability itself, not the effect which is aura)

No, but he's the only companion that sets up well to multiclass, and Druid is a particularly good fit since he has good WIS and Druid usually lacks any ranged proficiency. Drovier trades Wild Shape for the Auras (eventually topping out in Aspect of Wolf Aura which gives team +4 STR/DEX boost - +8 with Polymorph Mythic - and Swift Trips. But the Speed one is good until you can keep Haste up.) which is a great trade since he's not interested in Wild Shaping.

Unfortunately, I've picked Wenduag and Lann is gone (I believe he's not going to do a come back?).
Though the idea sounds pretty appealing to me, just don't want to restart Act 1 for a third time, maybe I'll pick a merc for this later.

Edit: found that he might be recruited back at Act 5, which is pretty late

 

[Desiderius]

You're the redditor here, IHaveHugeNick. 110 IQ take thinking he's owning anyone but himself with ignorant takedown is pure Reddit.

The point of Hunter is having the best animal companinon is the game, so Divine Hound is perfect design. This is why Owlcat nerf of Precise Companion is so bad - defeats whole purpose of the class, including archetypes.

Sacred Huntmaster has nothing to do with the Hunter class, trading abilities for a pet is a common theme on several archetypes.

The point of it all is that every trade-off is meaningful and produces significantly different paths in which not only the class but the parties designed around them develop from playthrough to playthrough. That's the key to replayabilty and strategic depth, or would be if Owlcat could get the ruleset decently implemented.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah way too many are useless and just as many are good but redundant, ie hunter has inquisitor-y type, inquisitor has a hunter-y type, and nearly everybody has some variation on bard.

Just admit you're too lazy to read what they do.

Inquisitor Hunter (Divine Hound) give Judgments *to pet* (which no other archetype in game can do and is completely busted) and (obviously) has different spellbook from (often redundant) Inquisitor spellbook. Inquisitor has no Hunter type, it's just an Inquisitor that trades Judgments for (full) pet.

It does exactly what I said it does: cloning elements from one class and half-baking it as an archetype for another. Sometimes the class ends up being good, sometimes it does not, but every time it's a banal, boring, lazy and uninteresting design, even if you overlook that half of this shit is buggy and doesn't work properly.

 

[Desiderius]

Kineticist reduces kinetic blade to 0 burn at level 5 while using Bowling Infusion (I think, don't have Toybox to check at the moment but I know this is the case in Kingmaker). Which is the exact same level that you'd get your first extra attack from a wizard hasting you. This isn't endgame theorycrafting.

Kineticist being "behind" Kinetic Blade would be relevant if Kinetic Blade had something that they could use to increase damage with that extra +1 burn capacity. Problem is, they don't. Even at level 20 they won't be able to reduce composite blasts to 0 on Kinetic Blade and there's literally nothing else to use because they don't get metakinesis.

Blade gets two attacks with Haste, Blast one. Just test the fucking class and quit beclowning yourself. Your original point was the KKnight doesn't give you sufficient payoff. But free Combat Expertise (without prereqs!) is obviously huge (so memesters were even splashing it for this effect alone for awhile), Resolute rerolls on Save with activations per level is great if you're not just savescumming every failed save, and, again, you're not Blading + Bowling *without gathering* until very late on base Kin. Even KKnight has to wait awhile to do that. Biggest reason you don't want DEX-based is to get the Size bonus from Legendary on your CMB, but yeah Finesse + Agile is a big Feat tax however you slice it (as is your evident plan to also burn two feats on Point-Blank and Precise. Can't remember if STR-to-dam is a thing on Blade but if it is there's even more damage you're blowing. Didn't have to worry much about damage on my KKnight since it was doing plenty.

 

[Desiderius]

It does exactly what I said it does: cloning elements from one class and half-baking it as an archetype for another. Sometimes the class ends up being good, sometimes it does not, but every time it's a banal, boring, lazy and uninteresting design, even if you overlook that half of this shit is buggy and doesn't work properly.

It's not a clone. What's banal about Judgements on a freaking pet? It's a massive difference. And as I'm having to point out for the third time Huntmaster is just the usual trading some abilities for a pet, it has nothing to do with the Hunter Class (Hunter's Tactics is just a nerf on the usual Solo Tactics that you have to pay to get the full pet) which becomes even more relevant in Wrath with Mounted.

 

[LannTheStupid]

It's also interesting to see how people are piling up on the EE only because of the bugs that could have been squished - probably - by several Zoom meetings where developers are forced to present their screens with the changes they made and the way they committed those changes.

I am playing 1.4.4g now - and I am seeing how much better it is than, say, 1.2.x . So I, for one, see the drive to improve the game and the will to fix bugs. The fact that things break every major patch means that those good intentions are not organized into a sound workflow. Which is neither a talent nor a budget issue; it is the matter of priorities and policies.

Of course, table toppers will whine no matter what. "Mah klas hav no feecherz it nidz to waurk" is incurable.

 

[IllusiveBrian]

Yeah way too many are useless and just as many are good but redundant, ie hunter has inquisitor-y type, inquisitor has a hunter-y type, and nearly everybody has some variation on bard.

Just admit you're too lazy to read what they do.

Inquisitor Hunter (Divine Hound) give Judgments *to pet* (which no other archetype in game can do and is completely busted) and (obviously) has different spellbook from (often redundant) Inquisitor spellbook. Inquisitor has no Hunter type, it's just an Inquisitor that trades Judgments for (full) pet.

It does exactly what I said it does: cloning elements from one class and half-baking it as an archetype for another. Sometimes the class ends up being good, sometimes it does not, but every time it's a banal, boring, lazy and uninteresting design, even if you overlook that half of this shit is buggy and doesn't work properly.

Most of the classes implementing features from other classes are doing it without any changes to the feature, so I doubt it requires much extra dev time to implement since the feature's mechanics are already done. Whether or not it's interesting is up to the beholder I guess, but I played a Divine Hound and thought picking what judgement to give my pet depending on the fight was interesting.

 

[Average Manatee]

Blade gets two attacks with Haste, Blast one.

Every class gets two attacks with haste using kinetic blade.

you're not Blading + Bowling *without gathering* until very late on base Kin. Even KKnight has to wait awhile to do that.

bruh admit now that you don't actually play WotR and are just here to shitpost.

Level 5 kineticist, literally the earliest you can get Bowling Infusion, you have 0 burn using Blade + Bowling. Neither class has to wait at all. And yes, I tested it in an actual fight to make sure it wasn't a UI bug, you get 0 burn using the two together. If you don't understand how burn works then you can't begin to understand the class.

 

[Desiderius]

It's also interesting to see how people are piling up on the EE only because of the bugs that could have been squished - probably - by several Zoom meetings where developers are forced to present their screens with the changes they made and the way they committed those changes.

I am playing 1.4.4g now - and I am seeing how much better it is than, say, 1.2.x . So I, for one, see the drive to improve the game and the will to fix bugs. The fact that things break every major patch means that those good intentions are not organized into a sound workflow. Which is neither a talent nor a budget issue; it is the matter of priorities and policies.

Of course, table toppers will whine no matter what. "Mah klas hav no feecherz it nidz to waurk" is incurable.

I’ve never played tabletop in my life and spent the last three years justifying the changes you made to tabletoppers.

But when your product comes up short when compared to what *one guy* can accomplish in his spare time (Holic with CotW) that’s a you problem. Shooting the messenger just makes it worse. You raised kickstarter money on promises to implement the Hunter class, but by leaving out Ranged TW Feats and making Precise Companion give the Companion no abilities you have yet to meaningfully do so.

 

[Desiderius]

Blade gets two attacks with Haste, Blast one.

Every class gets two attacks with haste using kinetic blade.

you're not Blading + Bowling *without gathering* until very late on base Kin. Even KKnight has to wait awhile to do that.

bruh admit now that you don't actually play WotR and are just here to shitpost.

Level 5 kineticist, literally the earliest you can get Bowling Infusion, you have 0 burn using Blade + Bowling. Neither class has to wait at all. And yes, I tested it in an actual fight to make sure it wasn't a UI bug, you get 0 burn using the two together. If you don't understand how burn works then you can't begin to understand the class.

That’s a bug if you’re getting that. Kin in Wrath is notoriously bugged all to shit so yeah my experience with it is from P:K outside of Elemental Engine in DLC, where Burnout is also bugged. Obv if you’re getting all kinds of shit for free w/o Gathering a cost reduction ability isn’t going to be as valuable. Not WAI.

 

[LannTheStupid]

But when your product comes up short when compared to what *one guy* can accomplish in his spare time (Holic with CotW) that’s a you problem.

Well, then play CotW or TTT. Why do you need Owlcat to do what is already done? Why do you think that their vision should be compatible with Holic's? Even here people were answering you about that missing part of the feat that it is rectified on the next level. And that is only one your complaint that I actually checked; I have not checked the others.

So yeah, some messengers deserve the firing squad.

 

[Desiderius]

There’s 4(!) Hunter archetypes where it isn’t rectified. TTT doesn’t have ranged TW Feats either. TTT wasn’t selling that kickstarter. Ranged Hunter is pointless W/O them.

And you still refuse to address the basic point that you have an ability called Precise Companion that does nothing to the Companion.