Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Haplo]

Findings on Armored Battlemage:

(1) Armor Training does nothing lol. Just unbelievable. Mostly redundant with Effortless Armor anyway.

(3) You can't meta Shocking Grasp at all (!). That much utter incompetence shouldn't be possible.

(4) Late game go to Vampiric Touch (it goes up to 10d6) also can't be meta'ed

Oh boy. And here I was using Maximised Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasps and Maximised Empowered Vampiric Touches on my Sword Saint already in Kingmaker. With Eldritch Arcana mod, though.

Owlcats, get your shit together!

 

[ArchAngel]

Where's the post game DLC you fucking faggowls?

At this point I just want a huge dungeon that lets me pick any of the Mythics without needing to jump through 1000 hoops and only using some of them for last 1/5 of the game

 

[Yosharian]

It is absolutely not true that offense beats defense full stop. By far the biggest challenge I ran into on Unfair was avoiding the attax of regular mobs I took for granted on lower difficulties. Battlemage gets you there by itself on Hard in a way other Magi don’t.

Quite opposite to my Unfair experience - I've found any attempts of stacking defense on anyone but designed melee units, in my case MC pure Oracle and couple of pets, absolutely, utterly worthless. You'd just cripple combat effectivity of your backline archers/mages if you'd try to get their AC high enough to soak some hits from high-AB mobs on Unfair. And even Oracle with the dog was mostly ignoring AC (never went higher that ~50-55) and had tanked 4/5 of the game with the mix of Displacement + Mirror Image + Seamantle + everything else.

From my experience, at least one character with godly 30+ initiative to provide surprise round is much more useful, since most hard fights are done before they even start properly, with generous application of archery, Illusion CC/Wierd and Hellfire Rays. Not the case in early chapters, but those are really easy to overlevel with some soloing.

Are you talking about Wrath? People in Discord were telling me that Mirror Image is useless past the early game in Wrath because every threatening monster has True Seeing apparently. I found that pretty hard to believe

 

[Sarathiour]

Are you talking about Wrath? People in Discord were telling me that Mirror Image is useless past the early game in Wrath because every threatening monster has True Seeing apparently. I found that pretty hard to believe

The meanest stuff generally have true sight or something equivalent, but there is still a lot of encounter where that's not the case. Also they're rarely alone, and the henchman rarely have true sight.

So I'm calling BS on this one.

 

[Daidre]

Are you talking about Wrath? People in Discord were telling me that Mirror Image is useless past the early game in Wrath because every threatening monster has True Seeing apparently. I found that pretty hard to believe

I am talking about Wrath.
Almost all endgame bosses and some mobs here and there got True Sight, mostly at the chapters 4+. But most of the Bosses don't attack in melee to begin with, even Deskari spams abilities at first and true-seers like Balors, Vavakias or Mariliths (Mythic Glabezu do not have it) are prime candidates for Hellfire Ray and specialized fire caster erases them in one round with Sorcerous reflex if needed.

For me it was never melees who scored the most kills against my party on Unfair - it were all sorts of archers, starting from Cultists Archers in chapter 1 to those pesky succubi shooting tons of attacks with their 57 AB and excellent initiative. But none of them has true seeing so Mirror Image + Displacement is god sent.

 

[Yosharian]

Are you talking about Wrath? People in Discord were telling me that Mirror Image is useless past the early game in Wrath because every threatening monster has True Seeing apparently. I found that pretty hard to believe

I am talking about Wrath.
Almost all endgame bosses and some mobs here and there got True Sight, mostly at the chapters 4+. But most of the Bosses don't attack in melee to begin with, even Deskari spams abilities at first and true-seers like Balors, Vavakias or Mariliths (Mythic Glabezu do not have it) are prime candidates for Hellfire Ray and specialized fire caster erases them in one round with Sorcerous reflex if needed.

For me it was never melees who scored the most kills against my party on Unfair - it were all sorts of archers, starting from Cultists Archers in chapter 1 to those pesky succubi shooting tons of attacks with their 57 AB and excellent initiative. But none of them has true seeing so Mirror Image + Displacement is god sent.

Hmm.

Sometimes they win initiative even when they don't win initiative. Noticed that in Threshold

 

[Yosharian]

Are you talking about Wrath? People in Discord were telling me that Mirror Image is useless past the early game in Wrath because every threatening monster has True Seeing apparently. I found that pretty hard to believe

The meanest stuff generally have true sight or something equivalent, but there is still a lot of encounter where that's not the case. Also they're rarely alone, and the henchman rarely have true sight.

So I'm calling BS on this one.

That's what I said but then they said that it still doesn't matter because apparently when henchmen score a string of crits against you it 'doesn't matter' because 'they don't hit hard'.

It was a discussion about the value of having MI as a frontliner

Kind of a frustrating conversation but I couldn't say much because I haven't actually played Wrath all the way through yet sigh

 

[Sarathiour]

That's what I said but then they said that it still doesn't matter because apparently when henchmen score a string of crits against you it 'doesn't matter' because 'they don't hit hard'.

Well if we go all the way through this line of thought, no defense matter at all, just pick last stand on everyone and blitz in three round.

 

[Humbaba]

Worse than PF:KM

Why do you keep saying that?

 

[Humbaba]

What do you guys even want from post game DLC? Game is already loaded with progression and DLC 1 shows that it become overly unfun to play another 12 hours without any level progression. If you really just want to play with high level character you can go with DLC 1 altho DLC 1 is kinda... unfun to say the least.

Or you mean some sort of sequel where you start with other characters from low level?

I'd expect a Throne of Bhaal kind of affair but not as terrible. It's not like things like that haven't been done before.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Worse than PF:KM

Why do you keep saying that?

Bad writing, bad pacing, actually unfun, unbalanced, and largely time consuming side mechanic (Crusade), poor characterization, whole lot of wasted potential with the theme and possibility they could do, bugs, etc.

From character building perspective KM with CotW is better.

The only thing that WotR do better is that enemies in general are more intelligent and game is harder overall. But even then for some reason starting from Chapter 4 the enemy design fails really hard and Owlcat just forget that they have caster to use as enemy and just used martial stuff full of steroid prebuff instead.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

What do you guys even want from post game DLC? Game is already loaded with progression and DLC 1 shows that it become overly unfun to play another 12 hours without any level progression. If you really just want to play with high level character you can go with DLC 1 altho DLC 1 is kinda... unfun to say the least.

Or you mean some sort of sequel where you start with other characters from low level?

I'd expect a Throne of Bhaal kind of affair but not as terrible. It's not like things like that haven't been done before.

You end the main campaign with probably 5 million gold (I can buyout every shop in DLC 1 and have money to spare even) and maxed everything. Even in ToB you have item and level progression still.

In any WotR post game DLC (DLC 1 is technically 1 just not from narrative standpoint) you will have issue of basically there is no meaningful progression anymore. It just feels awful. By end of WotR you are basically geared up head to toe with unique items basically and unless they make some ultra busted unique item there would be no item progression too.

I understand the criticism of you reaching Mythic 10 in like the last 30 min of the game and thus is largely meaningless (one of the poor pacing I mentioned above), but DLC 1 has shown that shoving a new campaign above WotR main one with same party/MC won't work. Owlcat is also too scared of using some ultra busted casters for high level encounter as in DLC 1 so you ended up just punching people to die for 12 hours.

 

[Grunker]

The only thing that WotR do better is that enemies in general are more intelligent and game is harder overall.

sounds good. don't really give a shit about the other stuff

 

[InD_ImaginE]

The only thing that WotR do better is that enemies in general are more intelligent and game is harder overall.

sounds good. don't really give a shit about the other stuff

I mean its not high bar to set considering Kingmaker AI is total buffon (this coming from big KM fan like me). But yeah combat is more fun in general although there is issue with it too (poor encounter design from mid Chapter 4 onwards, poor enemy variety and thus every encounter largely play the same).

If you really don't care about anything else but combat and build porn I guess you can say that WotR is the better game, but as overall package KM is just much more fun experience.

 

[Humbaba]

You end the main campaign with probably 5 million gold (I can buyout every shop in DLC 1 and have money to spare even) and maxed everything.

Highly doubt gold would transfer.

Even in ToB you have item and level progression still.

Which could also be present in a post-campaign DLC, you're just assuming the worst here. Level progression might be capped but itemisation is a more than adequate substitute. If worst comes to worst, knock the PC down a few levels idc. If seeing numbers go big is your main source of fun then MMO's or jRPGs might be more your speed.

By end of WotR you are basically geared up head to toe with unique items

This issue isn't new, in such cases maybe 1 of those items will transfer if the devs aren't complete morons.

Owlcat is also too scared of using some ultra busted casters for high level encounter

The final boss is literally an epic level caster, what are you on about? Nevermind the Gallu warmongers.

 

[Daidre]

Owlcat is also too scared of using some ultra busted casters for high level encounter as in DLC 1 so you ended up just punching people to die for 12 hours.

Maybe it is matter of difficulty?
Core does not have Additional Enemy's Behaviors and that absolutely cripples good half of AI spellcasting. I've replayed parts of DLC 1 yesterday on Hard (to make import save with items from secret boss) and I was constantly drowned in Greater Dispels, Mass Ice Prisons, Prismatic Sprays and Siroccos. Every third mob there was some kind of spellcaster spamming like crazy.

 

[Haplo]

Are you talking about Wrath? People in Discord were telling me that Mirror Image is useless past the early game in Wrath because every threatening monster has True Seeing apparently. I found that pretty hard to believe

I am talking about Wrath.
Almost all endgame bosses and some mobs here and there got True Sight, mostly at the chapters 4+. But most of the Bosses don't attack in melee to begin with, even Deskari spams abilities at first and true-seers like Balors, Vavakias or Mariliths (Mythic Glabezu do not have it) are prime candidates for Hellfire Ray and specialized fire caster erases them in one round with Sorcerous reflex if needed.

For me it was never melees who scored the most kills against my party on Unfair - it were all sorts of archers, starting from Cultists Archers in chapter 1 to those pesky succubi shooting tons of attacks with their 57 AB and excellent initiative. But none of them has true seeing so Mirror Image + Displacement is god sent.

There are also some enemies that are worth dispelling. And if you happen to be an Aeon, you can dispel a lot. Azata's Aivu used to be adept at dispelling also - but supposedly not anymore.
Lich would be a strong dispeller as well.

 

[Daidre]

There are also some enemies that are worth dispelling.

Well, Playful Darkness and Pathetic Quasit are wonderful lessons at the importance of dispelling.
Alas, lesson that most people get out of those fights is "Owlcat sucks at designing bosses. Muh balance."

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Owlcat is also too scared of using some ultra busted casters for high level encounter as in DLC 1 so you ended up just punching people to die for 12 hours.

Maybe it is matter of difficulty?
Core does not have Additional Enemy's Behaviors and that absolutely cripples good half of AI spellcasting. I've replayed parts of DLC 1 yesterday on Hard (to make import save with items from secret boss) and I was constantly drowned in Greater Dispels, Mass Ice Prisons, Prismatic Sprays and Siroccos. Every third mob there was some kind of spellcaster spamming like crazy.

I did manually enable the option but I wouldnt be surprised if it doesnt work because of bug.

 

[Desiderius]

That's what I said but then they said that it still doesn't matter because apparently when henchmen score a string of crits against you it 'doesn't matter' because 'they don't hit hard'.

Well if we go all the way through this line of thought, no defense matter at all, just pick last stand on everyone and blitz in three round.

That's the way a lot of people go and yeah Image isn't the end-all be all but it is another nice layer. I'd say Last Stand is mandatory for Unfair but if you rely on that alone you're still in for a world of pain. There are a lot of archer-specific defenses that people ignore that are very effective and not very expensive.

 

[Desiderius]

RTwP you can counter enemy casters with damage so yeah if you don't have that it makes things more difficult. Can also use Sound Burst/Stinking Cloud/Agony depending on mob and there are a lot of ways to get your saves up by then too.

Again a lot of people just ignore all that spamming the one weird Nerd Commando trick and DLC probably designed to punish that.

 

[Desiderius]

There are also some enemies that are worth dispelling. And if you happen to be an Aeon, you can dispel a lot. Azata's Aivu used to be adept at dispelling also - but supposedly not anymore.
Lich would be a strong dispeller as well.

Trickster is best Dispeller with Trickery 2. And yeah Dispelling is REALY good, which is why it's generally so hard to do. Pre-buffed enemies is incline over P:K.

Crusade is closeish to being there and generally pretty smooth to manage but again Owlcat follow-through on even the easy things is generally atrocious. They added a base ability to Ranger general to make it competitive with Caster that is supposed to do AoE enemy AC debuff, but it buffs their AC instead. Endlessly reported it, flagged on forums etc, AFAIK it STILL bugged.

I mean what are they even doing?

 

[Desiderius]

A fight like Nulk you can get him down fast but the Ghoul Rogues can one shot you during that first round. You can get enough AC to avoid that but it takes some planning and certain group compositions.

I usually do Nulk in RTwP and I start the fight with some summons from Azata's Tankard + Animate Dead and send one of the pets in that direction too. Ghouls are easily distracted with extra bodies nearby so everyone else could ignore them and rush to Nulk and beat him in the face. Biggest problem here imho is having Freedom of Movement, at least from the scrolls, on all characters I need functional for this fight.

Bunch of Azatas with Mirror Images from the tankard are so busted they could give you at least 2-3 rounds even against nastiest enemies in the game and Angels/Demons from summoning book in the Lich dungeon also nothing to sneeze at.

Yeah I use the Summons a lot especially Summoning book. Tankard Azatas are fine but like spamming stuns on own team. I Dimension Door in to open fight so really don't have that much control on Ghouls but just in general game goes much smoother if melee can handle themselves on front lines without having to worry about random dudes and you've got plenty of tools to get there. On Unfair you need to use them all and supplement with certain parties/abilities but it's worth it unless you're virtually soloing or doing something specific like summons + ranged every fight.

 

[Daidre]

Trickster is best Dispeller with Trickery 2.

Touch range of Trickery 2 was a huge disappointment for me. I was less than excited to crawl into Deskari's and Playful Darkness's melee range to deliver dispel.

 

[Desiderius]

Trickster is best Dispeller with Trickery 2.

Touch range of Trickery 2 was a huge disappointment for me. I was less than excited to crawl into Deskari's and Playful Darkness's melee range to deliver dispel.

Crawl lol. Door baby. Isolate that SOB to turn off his Sneaks. Swordlord Trickster lives for heat of battle but most Tricksters want to be able to get in close even if you’re just using a move action after the Heavies have Charged in.