Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

Does mutation warrior even work as a dip considering how many levels you need to get the basic mutagen, never mind some decent discoveries? And I think you cannot prolong mutagen effect with enduring anymore? Really feels like it's become the meme class of this game.

Yeah, it's a solid 5-level dip

If you combine it with Sword Saint you can do some proper shenanigans with 7 levels

 

[Haplo]

5 levels gets +4 stat along with weapon training +1 and can wear the gloves for another +2. So +5 AB/+6 Dam, along with 3 feats. 5 Minute mutagen timer is low, but if you are rest spamming to the point where you want rnd/level buffs up for most fights then it isn't holding you back. If you want a pure martial its one of the better choices.

Its 50 minutes, though.

It pretty much is the top dog, as far as pure martial classes and dips go.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah. I just don't normally think of classes in terms of "pure martial" vs. other characters but rather high BAB vs mid BAB vs low BAB. And Demonslayer pretty closely keeps pace with Mutation Warrior in melee damage output (minus a bunch of feats, but you can pick up the essentials roughly on-time), and all the other extra stuff you get from ranger (4 levels of spells that all have something useful, pet/ranger's bond, quarry + Big Game Gloves) puts it easily a tier ahead.

Also even if we're just talking dips, 1 level of Demonslayer for +2/+2 vs. basically everything is probably the best tradeoff in the game? Not like 5 levels of Mut Warrior is getting you +10/+10

 

[scytheavatar]

so how much of an meme is this tier rank list, after all this time?

https://www.neoseeker.com/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/guides/Class_Rankings#Rankings_explained

The list vastly underestimates Sanctified Slayer (easily S) and Witch of the Veil (which the author uses for his Demon Witch build and is easily S-). These 2 are the standouts, I would argue as mentioned Instinctual Warrior and Crusader are vastly overrated. Will also argue that a Shaman which does nothing but spam hex and summons is at least better than any Bard and deserves to be A+.

Also yeah Wildland Shaman should be A+ at least.

 

[Haplo]

Yeah. I just don't normally think of classes in terms of "pure martial" vs. other characters but rather high BAB vs mid BAB vs low BAB. And Demonslayer pretty closely keeps pace with Mutation Warrior in melee damage output (minus a bunch of feats, but you can pick up the essentials roughly on-time), and all the other extra stuff you get from ranger (4 levels of spells that all have something useful, pet/ranger's bond, quarry + Big Game Gloves) puts it easily a tier ahead.

Also even if we're just talking dips, 1 level of Demonslayer for +2/+2 vs. basically everything is probably the best tradeoff in the game? Not like 5 levels of Mut Warrior is getting you +10/+10

5 levels do enable Advanced Weapon Training as well though - and there's some nifty stuff there, notably Finesse wielding Greataxes and such.

Overall I'd rate both pretty similar, but personally I've been using MW more. DS is a very solid pure class even. And the 1 dip is great value too - but somehow I've rarely got a level spare.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

Decided to finish Nenio's quest. Are they serious with this shit? I thought I'd made it through the whole game without a single obnoxious dungeon, but holy shit. The pyramid is awful. Might not finish it, but I only have 5 crystals and I wanted to see if I can get 6 to ascend everyone in the secret ending. Does it make a difference?

 

[scytheavatar]

Yeah. I just don't normally think of classes in terms of "pure martial" vs. other characters but rather high BAB vs mid BAB vs low BAB. And Demonslayer pretty closely keeps pace with Mutation Warrior in melee damage output (minus a bunch of feats, but you can pick up the essentials roughly on-time), and all the other extra stuff you get from ranger (4 levels of spells that all have something useful, pet/ranger's bond, quarry + Big Game Gloves) puts it easily a tier ahead.

Also even if we're just talking dips, 1 level of Demonslayer for +2/+2 vs. basically everything is probably the best tradeoff in the game? Not like 5 levels of Mut Warrior is getting you +10/+10

5 levels do enable Advanced Weapon Training as well though - and there's some nifty stuff there, notably Finesse wielding Greataxes and such.

Overall I'd rate both pretty similar, but personally I've been using MW more. DS is a very solid pure class even. And the 1 dip is great value too - but somehow I've rarely got a level spare.

The problem with Demon slayer is that most of the fights in Act 2 are not against Demons, and you do not get Instant Enemy before lvl 3. Since Act 2 is usually the most difficult part of an Unfair playthrough the value of Demon slayer declines unless you hire a merc just before Drezen.

 

[Average Manatee]

The problem with Demon slayer is that most of the fights in Act 2 are not against Demons, and you do not get Instant Enemy before lvl 3. Since Act 2 is usually the most difficult part of an Unfair playthrough the value of Demon slayer declines unless you hire a merc just before Drezen.

Aside from the bugs, what parts of Act 2 do you consider difficult? Honestly curious, I've never had problems with any of the Act 2 boss fights on unfair. Gargoyle boss is easy, Vescavor queen is easy. The final fight with Staunton is only like 35 AC. Only difficult fight that you can't put off until later is the Demon summoned in the Drezen basement which gives like 15k XP

IMO Shield Maze is by far the hardest, especially Hosila (the only time I beat her legit TB is with a random x3 x3 charge crit that I posted a few pages back, every other time I've had to abuse RT), with a few Act 1 fights being tough too. This is also the point where a number of your party are chronic underperformers, like Camellia and Daeran doing fuckall for damage before you get mythic finesse, or your nuker getting fireball + bolster + ascendent element fire to actually do more than tickle things.

Also, sure, not many favored enemy bonuses early game (though I'd argue they cover most of the difficult Act 1 and 2 fights). But pets are also at their most powerful early game right after you've gotten your full party together to start buffing them. Boar can reach like 45 AC by the start of Act 2.

 

[scytheavatar]

The problem with Demon slayer is that most of the fights in Act 2 are not against Demons, and you do not get Instant Enemy before lvl 3. Since Act 2 is usually the most difficult part of an Unfair playthrough the value of Demon slayer declines unless you hire a merc just before Drezen.

Aside from the bugs, what parts of Act 2 do you consider difficult? Honestly curious, I've never had problems with any of the Act 2 boss fights on unfair. Gargoyle boss is easy, Vescavor queen is easy. The final fight with Staunton is only like 35 AC. Only difficult fight that you can't put off until later is the Demon summoned in the Drezen basement which gives like 15k XP

IMO Shield Maze is by far the hardest, especially Hosila (the only time I beat her legit TB is with a random x3 x3 charge crit that I posted a few pages back, every other time I've had to abuse RT), with a few Act 1 fights being tough too. This is also the point where a number of your party are chronic underperformers, like Camellia and Daeran doing fuckall for damage before you get mythic finesse, or your nuker getting fireball + bolster + ascendent element fire to actually do more than tickle things.

Also, sure, not many favored enemy bonuses early game (though I'd argue they cover most of the difficult Act 1 and 2 fights). But pets are also at their most powerful early game right after you've gotten your full party together to start buffing them. Boar can reach like 45 AC by the start of Act 2.

1) Gargoyle Cave (without using cheese let Regill kill everyone tactics)
2) Swarms before the Queen, and also the fights in the cave below
3) Ghoul pit in Drezen
4) Lich fight
5) Gargoyle Chieftain

Shield Maze like I said is trivialized easily with a Leopard carry. Entire Chapter 1 is easy as long as you have a Leopard or Boar.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

It occurred to me that you can make a Horse Archer Mongolian build.
Sohei can take a mount.
Sohei also gets flurry of blows with any weapon they specialize in.
Give Sohei Bow. Put Sohei on horse. Kite every enemy in the game going brrrr with your bow.
If possible, put him on a wolf. Because metal.

 

[Average Manatee]

1) Gargoyle Cave (without using cheese let Regill kill everyone tactics)
2) Swarms before the Queen, and also the fights in the cave below
3) Ghoul pit in Drezen
4) Lich fight
5) Gargoyle Chieftain

Shield Maze like I said is trivialized easily with a Leopard carry. Entire Chapter 1 is easy as long as you have a Leopard or Boar.

My experience is the exact opposite. Boar AC (which AFAIK is basically the same as leopard in shield maze) is still low enough in Shield Maze/Chapter 1 to be hit by a decent amount of things but by Chapter 2 it's untouchable vs. basically everything. And fighting Hosila is always a massive tossup because she wins initiative 90% of the time and then has a 90% chance to kill something before you can even move your pet in front of her, which then fears half the party.

On the other hand I find most of those other fights kind of trivial? The Gargoyle Chieftan you just need freedom of movement, but he's at least reasonably tough I guess. Lich might cast a bad spell that wipes you out since I think he's got a big book but its never happened to me and I've just killed him in one turn almost every time. Lich is also completely optional and barely has a reward attached. Ghouls can barely hit a thing, just back up to a choke point so you aren't overwhelmed. Swarms are of course a PITA but you only have to fight like 3 and the cave below is optional and can be done post-Drezen. Gargoyle cave is super easy? I mean once you know roughly what's coming and don't have Nenio positioned under where 3 gargoyles spawn of course.

 

[Average Manatee]

Anyone noticed this happen before? I charge but don't actually get charge bonuses, instead getting a full attack. Normally when charging w/ a mount the log will say that both me and the mount charge but here it looks like only the mount counted as charging for some reason.

 

[Parabalus]

Anyone noticed this happen before? I charge but don't actually get charge bonuses, instead getting a full attack. Normally when charging w/ a mount the log will say that both me and the mount charge but here it looks like only the mount counted as charging for some reason.

All the time, more often in RTwP.

 

[Average Manatee]

Any idea on the cause? Or just normal buggy charge shit?

For RTwP I can at least understand it being weird since you and your pet's initiative turns aren't necessarily synced AFAIK, but this was in TB so I dunno how it can fuck up like this.

EDIT: Maybe its due to something like 10'+ weapon range making charge not valid for the character? Is it a thing where you have to start a charge from further away with reach weapons?

 

[Cyberarmy]

just normal buggy charge shit?

Believe it or not, that happened a lot less at release.

 

[Crichton]

I recently started a second playthrough and every time I try to start an encounter with a mounted charge, I get the same bug; the mount charges and the rider does nothing, not even a regular attack. Not sure if it's a new bug or mount-specific; all the mounts this time are mastodons.

 

[NandoGando]

Is act 5 any good? My game is running like complete shit as soon as I left act 4 and I'm wondering if it's worth waiting a minute everytime I want to open my inventory or if I'm better off restarting.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I recently started a second playthrough and every time I try to start an encounter with a mounted charge, I get the same bug; the mount charges and the rider does nothing, not even a regular attack. Not sure if it's a new bug or mount-specific; all the mounts this time are mastodons.

Are you commanding the mount or the rider?

 

[Crichton]

I recently started a second playthrough and every time I try to start an encounter with a mounted charge, I get the same bug; the mount charges and the rider does nothing, not even a regular attack. Not sure if it's a new bug or mount-specific; all the mounts this time are mastodons.

Are you commanding the mount or the rider?

The rider by selecting his portrait. I only command the mount during combat for those rare occasions when the rider can't charge on a partial turn, but the mount can (though in that case, I've found that both will attack).

 

[Haplo]

EDIT: Maybe its due to something like 10'+ weapon range making charge not valid for the character? Is it a thing where you have to start a charge from further away with reach weapons?

I think that's very likely. Size factors into this for sure.

 

[mediocrepoet]

EDIT: Maybe its due to something like 10'+ weapon range making charge not valid for the character? Is it a thing where you have to start a charge from further away with reach weapons?

I think that's very likely. Size factors into this for sure.

It's hard to charge when he starts off already beyond the striking tip of your spear.

 

[The_Mask]

Delterius - Yay or Nay?


Owlcat Games

Let's start the week with a great cosplay by JackieUniverse from Reddit. And we use the Mythic Trick: Persuasion to tell you that this week will go awesome!

 

[Desiderius]

Ahh, K, Flamewarden and Stormwalker? Yeah they are pretty shit, and Espionage Expert should be way above them since it does get Ranger's Bond. I thought you were talking primarily about EE/FB.

For all intents and purposes if you really squint hard then Ranger and Demonslayer are equally good since Ranger has nothing else to really spend swift actions on except Instant Enemy and you can rest spam almost everywhere. And Espionage Expert is the same as a Demonslayer or Ranger who is taking Ranger's Bond. So they could all theoretically be rated S-tier. Of course for player sanity taking Demonslayer and not resting and rebuffing every single battle is vastly preferably and therefore deserves a better rating.

This isn't a tier kind of game. Every archetype has some niche things going on that can come up big depending on what you need.

I did a melee Flamewarden that multiplied the Burst dice in P:K (I think it also gets a rez and Fireball?). Stormwalker gets a teleport? I'd have to look into it again. Too many pets devolves into an even worse Summoning spam. More trouble than its worth.

Big benefit of Espionage Expert is how good of a Scout it makes without any work. Bizarre that it gives up Camouflage though.

EDIT: I looked at the game and Flamewarden gets Scorching Ray which is a very good Standard Action for a character that can tack on damage like Ranger, and especially good with Aeonbane which triggers on each Ray. Quasi-Pounce vs Touch AC on turns where you need to move if you're playing Ranged, or gives you a ranged attack if you're melee to take out casters. Burning Renewal heals ability damage and conditions when the Warden takes Fire damage (even if that damage is resisted by Resist) which can be supplied by the Flamewarden itself since it gets Flamestrike and Volcanic Storm (which also applies Difficult Terrain). Open fight with Storm to lay down Terrain and hit team (which has Resist, Communal up) to turn on Enforced Vigor while hitting enemies for 30 or so. Also gets Breath of Life as an ability so no slot needed always up and a couple unique effects late where you blow up in Fire if you die that only hits enemies while giving minor Heal to team, then at 20 gets auto-self-rez if you die once per rest, which is a unique effect in game as far as I'm aware. Probably best fit for that is melee paired with a high crit multiplier weapon to get most out of Flaming Burst on Weapon. Gives up Bond (which you can get from Aru) and Evasion (which it can get from Ring).

Stormwalker gets Full Round (which can be clunky depending) but fifty-foot range Teleport followed by one free attack at nearest target at full BAB that goes up to two shots later. Could be good Assassin to interrupt spells in RTwP (I'm betting that the full-round makes this suck though). Gives up Bond and Quarry which again may be no big deal depending if you've got someone else in party (Aru or Greybor) to apply Big Game Gloves. Archery only so seems like you'd want to go Snap Shot Stealth build using teleport to set up positioning.

Both get the free elemental (and Magic) weapon that upgrades to Burst at lvl 12.

 

[Desiderius]

Some of the most annoying fights involved those assasin-type demons with pitchfork weapon, they just go balls deep on my MC every time.

Especially the Infiltrators.
Why yes, teleport from out of line of sight and one turn kill Ember, sure why not. That's not some bullshit at all.
Its bad enough that Babaus have stupidly high sneak that allows them to be undetected, even with See Invisibility active (unless the game just spawns them in with scripted nonsense, like Midnight fane), but did they have to teleport as well?

Ember shouldn't be that close to the front line.

Do you know how to configure your formation?

 

[Yosharian]

I'm pretty sure that's a dude.